Cheating Hurt by Infidelity
Betrayal Wayward Donations lying
Welcome

Forums

Guidelines

Find a Local Counselor

The Healing Library

Media

Contact Us
lies
cover
In Association with Amazon.com
Support
Infidelity -
-
like us on facebook
You are not logged in. Login here or register.
[Register]
Newest Member: AmIDreaming41 (45703)

Just Found Out Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: TT, lies and deception
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am seeing so much discussion about the ongoing lies and TT on this board. Affairs are not always the fatal wound, the TT and the lies continuing on and on kills the marriage. I truly believe that there are many reasons why they lie from reading here. Some may fit your WS some may not, but understanding some of this lessened the power of the lies for me. I wrote this about 2 years ago, I hope it helps you wrap your head around it.

Why do WSís lie? There are many answers the first being the simplest: itís easy. Affairs are built on lies, and most WSís are pretty good at it. Many WSís have known nothing but lies, they have learned to lie at a very early age. Many as children perfected the lie to avoid getting into trouble, dodging punishment, make themselves feel better. Some grow up in environments where they are taught and encouraged to lie to protect anotherís feelings, their parents teach them how to tell these white lies early in life. For example, ďTell Aunt Pat she looks great in those jeans.Ē . But by the time most WSís are adults, lying is second nature. In fact, I believe they become best at lying to themselves. This is more insidious and problematic as it becomes part of their natural coping skills under duress.

There is a component of the WSís lies that are about control. Many WSís desperately want to control how others see them, and they donít want anyone to see them for who they really are. In fact, they are scared of who they are and they even want to control how they see themselves. I believe with my WW she would lie to appear more agreeable and to impress others in a social situations. In effect, they want to elevate their self-esteem. Once the Wayward self-esteem is threatened, They tend to lie. They will lie about just about everything, the kind of life they have, where they live, and how much money they make, how their spouse treats them. After the affair is exposed these control oriented liars tend to TT, a lie of omission as easily as just lie. WSís attempt to control the fall out of the affair, and when they cant exercise control over the fall-out they canít tell the truth. They want to be in control how things should be in this reconciliation, in thier mind they still want to ďmanageĒ this, and they do it with the tool they know best, lies. They try the ďtell what my BS wants to hearĒ game. They tell a lie, choose words could put themselves in a better light or choose an answer that is going to help keep your BS quiet for more time.

Another reason for their lies besides control is FEAR. They fear that with the ugly truths out the fall out of the affair will be worse than what is known. They again lie to themselves, tell themselves my BS doesnít need to know about the oral sex that is not important, BS already knows I had sex once and thatís all BS needs to know. They are afraid if you know the real person they were in the affair that again you will be gone and they canít relinquish the control over the outcome.

Many WSís also TT or lie because they are massive conflict avoiders. They canít stand to be in opposition to another. Either they have an inferiority issue that doesnít allow them to engage the conflict or they have FOO issues where conflicts usually = violence, but conflict avoidance is best handled with a lie, donít allow the disagreement to happen in the first place. Many WSís fear conflict more than they fear themselves, so they lie to avoid the issue.

Then there are the WSís that are pathological liars. A pathological liar is a liar who believes the lies he is telling, the WS manages to convince themselves they are true, in comparison to a compulsive liar who will lie for any reason, and knows they are lies but apparently can't stop himself from doing so. Pathologic liars donít see their lies, a pathological liar may not know that they lie, they may believe themselves to be as honest and trustworthy as anyone else. Some of them actually believe their own lies until someone can show them proof that they are wrong. The sad truth is that most pathologic liars lie to build themselves up because of feelings of inadequacy and worthlessness.
Point is there are many reasons for the lies and TT related to the affair. Not many of them made sense to me, but I quickly realized none of them were about me. They all point to a broken spouse. TT is chiefly that, the spouse even after the affair is uncovered is so broken they cant even be honest with themselves about what happened. They are by definition not owning their shit!. Which brings me to the ramifications on the BS?

As BSís the lies are the hardest part, they are the tools of the devil. They destroy all that a marriage is founded on honesty, love, intimacy and trust. Being dishonest about the affair only serves as another SI poster stated as ďroundup on the marriage, it kills everythingĒ. As I have said before ďFrom complete honesty up sprouts small shoots of trust, intimacy, and healing.Ē It's difficult to stay in love with one another when we discover they are dishonest about things that matter. Lies makes us question our own reality, are we BSís nuts? We feel that way, we have no center, no firm ground to stand on. I know this because my WW was not honest, and all the TT makes me question reality even today. Lies and deception have driven a gaping hole in our relationship. My WW destroyed the love, trust, and intimacy in our relationship with the inability to be honest with me and herself.
I hope this helps BSís get their minds around why their WS might be lying and WSís understand that they are killing the love, intimacy and trust that any health relationship.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1920 | Registered: Nov 2010
norabird
♀ Member
Member # 42092
Default  Posted: 9:53 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Point is there are many reasons for the lies and TT related to the affair. Not many of them made sense to me, but I quickly realized none of them were about me. They all point to a broken spouse. TT is chiefly that, the spouse even after the affair is uncovered is so broken they cant even be honest with themselves about what happened. They are by definition not owning their shit!

I need to keep remembering this. Thanks for putting your thoughts out there! I think as a mostly honest person, who values emotional openness and speaking the truth in relationships, it is hard to understand that other people (like WS's) don't want to or aren't capable of speaking the truth about their emotions or actions. That leads to giving the benefit of the doubt when it's not deserved.


Sit. Feast on your life.

Posts: 4203 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: NYC
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 10:13 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent post. I think most of us agree that the being lied to, the not knowing and the constant wondering is far worse than the affair itself. If a BS never knows the entirely truthful answers to their questions, than there is nothing for them to heal from and get over. Few WS's understand this.

But the TT is by far the worst and if a BS lets it, the TT can last years and years and eons.

Of what you wrote, the biggest worry is the pathological liar and something I have thought about for years. They can be such great liars and gas-lighters, that how in the world do you ever know when you do have the entire truth?

Another concern is how to get a pathological liar to actually answer the questions with nothing but total honesty. Total honesty also includes no more partial truths, which are the hardest to figure out.

I noticed at the bottom of your post, you have written lies and TT till 11/2010. How did you get the entire truth finally?


Posts: 4268 | Registered: Jun 2002
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 10:23 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good stuff man, good stuff.

I myself had to remind my self a lot of these things many times. I can understand that it happens because of their own dysfunctional way of handling their life or coping with the inevitable adversity of life, but I don't have to accept it as OK and it doesn't invalidate my request to have my spouse change. Understanding and accepting are different things.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2570 | Registered: May 2010
veronique12
♀ Member
Member # 42185
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you so much for this post. I'm struggling with continued TT and I am nearly at my breaking point. My H is a conflict avoider and so while he knows bc I've told him that I need the truth in order to heal, he struggles mightily to reveal it, which just makes things much worse. Strength and hugs to us all.


BW: me (38)
WH: 43
OW: false "friend"
D-Day: 11/29/13 (4 month EA discovered); 12/19/13 (discovered was also PA); TT thru 2/14
Married: 2001; Together for nearly 20 years
2 beautiful young kids

Posts: 569 | Registered: Jan 2014
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 11:19 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I noticed at the bottom of your post, you have written lies and TT till 11/2010. How did you get the entire truth finally?

After the TT for months I set a boundary and told her for my safety I needed full and complete transparency. She wrote a cursory timeline and I asked questions. Then 2 days before thanksgiving I asked her a question and it revealed new info. I kicked her out of the house and place divorce papers in her hand the next morning. That afternoon I got a 9 page document that included everything, feelings, how it escalated, what her thoughts were, where they met for their brief 5 PA encounters and every gory detail of those encounters. She finally got it, she delivered it with tears, mascara running snot bubbling fashion begging for 1 last chance and that this was all of the detail. She understood I really needed it all. Then I told her, She was welcome home but if I ever found one contradiction or new detail we were done. To this day not one new detail, new piece of info. Through her IC she is able to articulate and communicate on a new level. she answers every question with remorse and at time shame. last year I handed her the 9 page document, told her I never needed to see it again. I moved past it.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1920 | Registered: Nov 2010
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

when we discover they are dishonest about things that matter.

Everyone has told some type of lie to their spouse, and so the fact that you added the distinction to this sentence is so important.

"About things that matter"

Some lying WS' are so desperate to 'even the playing field' that s/he will try to make a past lie told by the BS about something totally *small* in the scheme of things *equal* to the lies that totally shake the entire foundation of the marriage.

(as if the fact that you may have lied about how much money you spent on a dress will EVER equal the fact that your WS told you s/he WASN'T having an affair with your best friend )


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8181 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 12:22 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gonnabe - I think this is referred to as blame shifting and the WS is very good at doing this.

A WS has a terrible problem with staying on topic. Whenever this happens, it is important to remind the WS that you are discussing what THEY did at this time and only that.

lordhasaplane - It does sound like things did turn out well. And possibly your wife grew from this and learned a lot.

So basically what you are saying is that in your case, getting her to be totally honest required the use of a very important threat.

What I have always wondered is, when dealing with a lying WS who very well could be in the category of pathological liar is, how do you know when you have the entire truth. Is it when everything makes sense, when there are no I dont knows left as answers?


Posts: 4268 | Registered: Jun 2002
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 1:07 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So basically what you are saying is that in your case, getting her to be totally honest required the use of a very important threat.

Her lies were mostly about control. Trying to manage and stay in the relationship. Once she realized the very thing she was attempting to protect was the very thing she was going to loose it all came out. There was also a bit of conflict avoidance in there as well.


What I have always wondered is, when dealing with a lying WS who very well could be in the category of pathological liar is, how do you know when you have the entire truth. Is it when everything makes sense, when there are no I don't knows left as answers?

You will never get the whole truth from the pathologic liar. They truly believe the things they say. Go tot he ICR Menz thread. its chock full of some long time BS's who have to determine if they will stay despite knowing they will never know the truth, Razor comes to mind. I don't want to speak for him but that is the appearance.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1920 | Registered: Nov 2010
cl131716
♀ Member
Member # 40699
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

gonnabe- Yes! My WH did this! He once asked what was wrong and since I didn't want to talk about it I told him "nothing". I finally told him what was wrong and his whole focus was how I lied. He went as far as to say he couldn't trust what I said anymore. He used that against me for weeks!

As for why he lies, I believe he lies to himself and believes his own lies. He has a hard time remembering things and could never explain his relationship with the first OW. He believed her to be just a friend but couldn't explain wht he hid her from everyone and why they kissed. He still can't be honest with himself on that one. It's so hard getting answers from someone who refuses to acknowledge anything was wrong.

Example:
Him: I never had feelings for her. She was just a friend that's all. All we ever talked about was how we were each doing.

Me: So she was like an aquaintance? So why did you have to meet in secret to ask how you were doing?

Him: I don't know. But that's all it was. I can't explain it.

Me: okay so why did you wait to kiss AFTER you were both engaged?

Him: it was just to say goodbye to the friendship. Like to say take care. It was only a peck.

Me: hmmm okay did you ever kiss like that before? Have you ever kissed a "friend" on the lips before?

Him: no and no. I don't know. I don't know what it meant.

Ahhhh! So frustrating!!!


Me BS 31
Him WS 34 Trying4change
Together 3 years, married for one
D-day: 07/23/13 cybersex with COW
D-day: 12/27/13 found out he met and kissed a "friend" in 2011
"A clear and innocent conscience fears nothing."

Posts: 935 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Oklahoma
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lordhasaplan - How do I find the ICR Menz thread?

CL131716...Isn't it amazing how the WS suddenly does not know anything and cannot explain anything, as if they werent there when it all happened.


Posts: 4268 | Registered: Jun 2002
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

forums, I Can Relate, Betrayed Menz Thread.
http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=518645


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10).
No life should be passively relinquished due to the toxicity of others and taking steps to protect yourself may very well be the most important steps you will ever take.

Posts: 1920 | Registered: Nov 2010
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 5:15 PM, February 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I tend to over simplify things. Why? Well because I think most people (including me) over think everything.

The simplest answer is usually the correct one. Occams Razor (how I chose my user name here).

I believe that ALL lies are about control. Controlling how people see you. Controlling your relationships with people. Controlling peoples actions.

I think what we are talking about here are serious lies. Not lies about how someone looks in their jeans. But even these lies are about control because if you make a person feel better about them self and they continue to be your friend.

Lies told during a affair are to keep the BS from knowing whats going on. The WS doesnt want the party to end.

Lies told after a affair are about *damage control*

In short. If you control what a person knows. Then you control what choices they make. Essentially you control their whole life.

To lie to your spouse about important things is an insidious thing to do. It is highly disrespectful because you dont allow someone you profess to love to have even the most basic power of their life. The power to make their own decisions.

Its this lack of respect. a horrible horrible thing to do. that I feel destroys the relationship and the M.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.

Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.
Friedrich Nietzsche


Posts: 3483 | Registered: Sep 2007
craig2001
♂ Member
Member # 55
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, February 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor - I think most BS's over thinking and over analyzing everything and that comes from never being told the entire truth all at once. The TT and the partial truths are a living hell that a WS seemingly cannot understand.

Over reading also. I read a lot about the different types of liars, and none of those matched. How you explained the reasons the WS lies is correct. Their type of lying is the CYA liars.

As for the simple answer usually being the correct answer is usually a good place to start. I started to notice that when my WW had to answer a question with a long winded explanation, it would eventually be a lie with bits of truth thrown in...to throw me off.

Did you encounter that as well?


Posts: 4268 | Registered: Jun 2002
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 10:00 AM, February 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

i think sometimes the WS isnt even sure what the truth is themselves. they rewrote history so extensively (making their BS into the bad guy), making justifications for their behavior, the euphoria of the affair(s), and the confusion caused by so many lies to so many people (including themselves) leaves them almost unable to distinguish roast beef from horse sh1t.


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 581 | Registered: Jan 2014
Topic Posts: 15

Return to Forum: Just Found Out Post Reply to this Topic
adultry
Go to :
madness  
© 2002 - 2014 SurvivingInfidelity.com. All Rights Reserved.