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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: mind bending epiphanies
Morhurt
♀ Member
Member # 40166
Default  Posted: 11:09 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I came across this article and thought it had some good stuff.

http://theunboundedspirit.com/9-mind-bending-epiphanies-that-will-turn-your-world-upside-down/

An excerpt:

7. All people operate from the same two motivations: to fulfill their desires and to escape their suffering.

Learning this allowed me to finally make sense of how people can hurt each other so badly. The best explanation I had before this was that some people are just bad. What a cop-out. No matter what kind of behavior other people exhibit, they are acting in the most effective way they are capable of (at that moment) to fulfill a desire or to relieve their suffering. These are motives we can all understand; we only vary in method, and the methods each of us has at our disposal depend on our upbringing and our experiences in life, as well as our state of consciousness. Some methods are skillful and helpful to others, others are unskillful and destructive, and almost all destructive behavior is unconscious. So there is no good and evil, only smart and dumb (or wise and foolish.) Understanding this completely shook my long-held notions of morality and justice.


Me: BS
Him: FWS
M: 15 years
4 lovely daughters
Working to rebuild.

Posts: 887 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Canada
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:15 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and almost all destructive behavior is unconscious.
Okay, I haven't read the whole article yet. This is something I feel I have an issue with though. I feel a lot of people (most) know that they are choosing destructive behaviours and that it isn't unconscious.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9415 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 11:16 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Morhurt -

I fully appreciate that this is true of a lot of people. It is also true that if people are present, pay attention to there urges and there actions they can operate from other motivations - like intention.

Most people are asleep and on auto-pilot. Slaves to their minds wanderings and impulses. Authentic people aren't and in my opinion a BS is asking there WS to become aware of not working off those same two motivations, but instead be aware of them and act differently.

I don't believe people are good or bad, but behavior can be.

take care....



Posts: 1415 | Registered: Jan 2012
Lovedyoumore
♀ Member
Member # 35593
Default  Posted: 11:22 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and almost all destructive behavior is unconscious.

Sorry, I do not believe this. Humans are capable of making informed decisions and are very aware when they chose bad behavior. If almost all destructive behavior was unconscious, why do W's spend so much effort hiding their deeds? Because they know what they are doing is destructive to their spouse and marriage.


Me 52
WH 52
Married 30+ years
Together trying to R

I tell people I am tired but really my heart is broken and I am sad.


Posts: 1401 | Registered: May 2012 | From: Southern, bless your heart
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:32 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Read the article and found it interesting. Some of the "mind bending epiphanies" I strongly agree with and others not so much. Still interesting.

In 7. though, I also don't agree with this statement.

there is no good and evil
Strongly disagree with this statement. I know there is evil. I am sorry Hitler wasn't
only smart and dumb (or wise and foolish.)
he is the spokesman for evil, along with his henchmen.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9415 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Very Buddhist. I like it.

There is a saying that "no man believes himself to be evil" which is one of the paradoxes of an affair. It is a rare (and probably diagnosable) person who thinks: "I am going to firebomb my house, and crush the hearts of those I love by having an affair." Most waywards are pulled there largely by forces that are not pinging away on the 'ol frontal lobe. Call it unconscious, or feelings, or drives, whatever. But, there is rarely a reasoned decision to have an affair, in my opinion. Who would do it?


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1768 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Morhurt
♀ Member
Member # 40166
Default  Posted: 11:33 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hmmm.... I admit I'm not sure about that statement (or the article in general) but at the same time, though I 100% know that what H did were his choices, I wonder if he was sort of, I don't know... acting on his unconscious. I mean, he told me, during his As, about people we knew that were cheating etc, and he was genuinely horrified at their behaviour. I mean WTF?? He was doing it too!
I've asked him since then if he was testing my reaction or something but he said, no, he was honestly disgusted with their behaviour and had compartmentalized his own so much that he didn't see it as the same thing.

And I guess the part in the quote that stood out to me was this

to escape their suffering.
Now, obviously causing others to suffer does not make it ok to escape your own that way, but it held some truth for me.


Me: BS
Him: FWS
M: 15 years
4 lovely daughters
Working to rebuild.

Posts: 887 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Canada
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

there is rarely a reasoned decision to have an affair, in my opinion. Who would do it?
I don't know if I follow you, bionicgal. Of course there is no good reason, but WS's have their "reasons". Part of FWH's "reason" was he was angry at me and I deserved to be cheated on. I feel a lot of WS's think that way. Most, imo, WS's have their reasons or, really, justifications.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9415 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 11:46 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

he was honestly disgusted with their behaviour and had compartmentalized his own so much that he didn't see it as the same thing
My FWH was exactly the same. He was disgusted with his married H.S. BF who was having an affair with a MOW. He thought it was awful because his BF thought he loved both his wife and MOW.

Now, FWH thought his affair wasn't "as bad" as his BF's because he didn't love the OW, he just fucked OW for 4 years. Viola! So. Much. Better.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9415 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
RipsInMyChest
♀ Member
Member # 41166
Default  Posted: 11:52 AM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In this context, unconscious means that the subconscious is making the decisions based on those deep desires/or pain avoidance. The conscious, thnking part of the brain then has to justify those desires in order to act on them. The person doing this doesn't THINK on purpose so as to allow said desires to be acted upon. Truly conscious thinking would run counter to the subconscious.....Which is uncomfortable and will be avoided.

There have been MRI studies that show that seconds before you make a "conscious" decision your subconscious has already fired up and made the decision for you.


Me: BW 41
FWH 41
Together 21 yrs, M 18, 2 kids
DDay: 12/11/12 ONS with CW
Used condom, got chlamydia anyway.

His betrayal of me was not because I didn't shine brightly enough, but because he chose to put on blinders.


Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2013
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, exactly what I meant to say, RipsinChest.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1768 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
SisterMilkshake
♀ Member
Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Okay, I see what you mean about the "subconscious". I would call that WS's doing what they want no matter what, or in other words, selfish. Their subconscious is selfish so it becomes their "conscious" choice.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 9415 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
Dallas2
♀ Member
Member # 28362
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gee I wonder if this can be used as a defense for murder?? My sub-conscious made me do it.

I don't buy this one at all. A WS choses what they do and how they deal with it later.


Me

Posts: 828 | Registered: Apr 2010
RipsInMyChest
♀ Member
Member # 41166
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gee I wonder if this can be used as a defense for murder?? My sub-conscious made me do it.

No, no, no.... Everyone (except the certifiably insane) is responsible for their own actions. What I was talking about and what the article refers to explains the "how?" and "why?". Just because you know how and why someone does something doesn't mean that they are excused for doing it. I know how and why Ted Bundy did what he did. Doesn't mean he's not responsible.

It answers the "how" question by revealing how the subconscious works on the conscious decisions that we make. It answers the "why?" very succinctly....Because they (WS) wanted to. There is no real other reason. All of us here asking why, why, why??? There is only one reason....because they wanted to. Obviously their particular situation, FOO issues, and personality traits influenced what they used to justify their actions to their conscious mind. But in the subconscious it's all the same...because they wanted to.

A good analogy would be the eating of brownies. No one anywhere ever needs to eat a brownie. It holds no nutritional value that couldn't be gotten from better food sources, and they have a lot of sugar and fat in them. Everyone knows brownies are not good for us. Then why is brownie mix sold? Why does anyone eat brownies? The answer is because we want to. And we use justifications like "one brownie won't kill me". We know it's not good and we do it anyway. The subconscious desire to eat a brownie and have the pleasure from it outweighs the logical thinking that the brownie is not good for us. Obviously the pain and suffering and horror of infidelity is not equatable with that of eating a brownie. But I think it shows how that kind of thinking can occur.


Me: BW 41
FWH 41
Together 21 yrs, M 18, 2 kids
DDay: 12/11/12 ONS with CW
Used condom, got chlamydia anyway.

His betrayal of me was not because I didn't shine brightly enough, but because he chose to put on blinders.


Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2013
wert
♂ Member
Member # 34478
Default  Posted: 3:05 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No, no, no.... Everyone (except the certifiably insane) is responsible for their own actions. What I was talking about and what the article refers to explains the "how?" and "why?"

Yes I think that is true and makes perfect sense.

The subconscious desire to eat a brownie and have the pleasure from it outweighs the logical thinking that the brownie is not good for us.

Funny, my MC used this same example (food) when talking about limbic brain, yadda yadda. I get it. That said, blowing your boss and eating a brownie compulsively are not that same thing. It takes a special kind of messed up to "justify" that behavior. Enter FOO and childhood stagnation. I think the unfortunately truth of the matter is that many adults are not really adults. They are emotional children, that do in fact follow impulse, subconscious, reptilian brain or whatever you want to call it. Enter WS. They are not genuine people and need to learn to become so. This is not meant as a value judgement, but instead it is at the core of recovery for a WS. It's a constant battle for all of us.

People who are present and paying attention to what they honor and hold valuable don't do that. It is very instructive for everyone to know this information and learn from it, WS and BS alike. It's a real life improvement for everyone.

Like I said in my previous post, IMO, this is exactly what the WS needs to over ride, move beyond or grown out of in order NOT to be a WS any longer. It means growing up and paying attention, not acting like a 6th grader looking for the next lolly pop the guy with the wife beater t-shirt is handing out from the back of his rusted out van.

Impulse and subconscious we all have. The ability to be present and be aware of them is what separates adults from kids. A definition of adulthood could be - the ability to postpone gratification based on all the variables one is presented with.

There is no real other reason. All of us here asking why, why, why??? There is only one reason....because they wanted to. Obviously their particular situation, FOO issues, and personality traits influenced what they used to justify their actions to their conscious mind. But in the subconscious it's all the same...because they wanted to.

Yep, however I would add that we are not robots or automated reaction machines. We can and many of us do control much of our behavior and our not bound to impulse or the subconscious. I say this because it is more than FOO or whatever that WS need to correct, it is this exact thought process of making conscious decisions verse unconscious ones that lead them to what I would consider adulthood and real freedom. In other words, we are not our minds as the article points out. We have a say and are not simply seeking things based on two motivations.

Great conversation and a good article for generating thoughts...Thank you....

take care...

[This message edited by wert at 3:07 PM, January 30th (Thursday)]



Posts: 1415 | Registered: Jan 2012
RipsInMyChest
♀ Member
Member # 41166
Default  Posted: 4:14 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wert, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said! Great points!


Me: BW 41
FWH 41
Together 21 yrs, M 18, 2 kids
DDay: 12/11/12 ONS with CW
Used condom, got chlamydia anyway.

His betrayal of me was not because I didn't shine brightly enough, but because he chose to put on blinders.


Posts: 245 | Registered: Oct 2013
still-living
♂ Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 5:07 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for this article. I agree with most of the content so reading it gives me confidence.

I believe my wife operated intentionally and self controlled all of her adult life. She remained unhappy and feared she would die unhappy, like her father and mother before her. Without understanding that happiness comes from within, and with a shallowness inside, I believe my wife arrived to a belief that not taking the lolly pop and controlling herself was the very thing that made her unhappy. Like a child, she didn't have enough value inside or the right set of beliefs to offset the urge.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

Recovery is building a pyramid of inference from which to climb and see clearer, and heavy usage of the reflexive loop.


Posts: 690 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 6:18 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Cool post and responses!

#7 supports the recurring professional thought that affairs have very little to do with the AP....they are just the vehicle to fulfill a selfish urge.

That whole "unconscious" part?

Ties nicely into how I see FOO issues working within me.....fully influencing me but my final outward decision was consciously made.

Now, FWH thought his affair wasn't "as bad" as his BF's because he didn't love the OW, he just fucked OW for 4 years. Viola! So. Much. Better.

My wife did lots of this....when she reached out to her sister, she was 6 weeks into her affair (EA). While I wasn't a part of that conversation it does appear my wife told her sister JUST ENOUGH to get the answer and support she desired to back her "discomfort" over what she was doing to a level that prohibited change.

In other words....She reduced the pain of same (keeping her A alive) to a level that was less then the pain of change (killing her A rather and working on herself and her M).

Subconsciously I believe my wife knew she was going to fuck this guy early on. That thought was too tough to stomach....she could NOT override that "wrong behavior" in its raw form....so she was actively made ways to make that more palatable by consciously making smaller decisions that moved boundaries slow enough so as not to be really painful.....nibbled at the meal she subconsciously craved until it was "not such a big mouthful".

This is why I believe adultery is "traumatic level" pain for a BS and merely "painful" to WS.....even if the affair is a splash in the pan like a ONS, or even a 3 month, start to finish affair like my wifes.

Adultery is a fruit of something that was growing inside a WS for much longer then the time actually spent in their A.

Once that fruit is ready to harvest, a WS will pick like their is a storm on the horizon! F everything else.


Think about how we form right from wrong, how we grow into serving others, using manners, etc.....none of that is "natural", it is learned behavior.

Yes, you can be kind or mean by nature....but the thought of "manners mature into morals" resonates with me.

Selfishness is easy and natural....many times its the natural go to when we get in auto-pilot.

Impulse and subconscious we all have. The ability to be present and be aware of them is what separates adults from kids.

Ties nicely into the thought that FOO issues stop our emotional growth at the age at which they are born.

this is exactly what the WS needs to over ride, move beyond or grown out of in order NOT to be a WS any longer. It means growing up and paying attention, not acting like a 6th grader looking for the next lolly pop the guy with the wife beater t-shirt is handing out from the back of his rusted out van.

...I would further this thought that a truly authentic healthy M is one where both spouses commit to growing past their FOO issues....enabling the union to be made up of two mature adults. If either side cant do that, is a healthy M really possible? Will the fruit harvested by the person who is "child-like" in their approach to coping with life still not be unhealthy to the union they are a part of?

I have often viewed what my wife did with her OM in a similar light to what I did as a teenage boy.....back when my subconscious and conscious minds were at similar emotional ages.

My own FOO issues have been a root of my poor conscious choices too....still needed attention in me, but adultery was not a fruit on my vine. Still, unhealthy fruit was picked by me.

Behavior is good or evil....people are not. God hates sin, but does not hate the sinner.

God help us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 6:35 AM, January 31st (Friday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3411 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
JustDesserts
♂ Member
Member # 39665
Default  Posted: 6:27 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Better hide this thread from us Waywards! It might give some of us all kinds of new ways to rationalize and justify our choices.

If I recall correctly, I never had a gun to my head when eating a brownie...or CHOOSING to have an affair.

Some interesting points and responses, but a lot of loopholes vis a vis responsibility and ownership of ones thoughts and actions.

"My subconscious made me do it!" could be a Wayward thread sometime soon.

JD


2 year EA/PA. DDay 3/12. Broke NC 6/13 w/one stupid 5 line e-mail (which brought me to SI). Me: WH, 50. Her: BW, 49. Married 19 years. Two kids. Dog. Reconciling...together.

Posts: 403 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Suburbia, New England, USA
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, January 31st (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm with JD on this.
almost all destructive behavior is unconscious

nope - I knew what I was doing and could have stopped it.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 48
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

ôSlide the weight from your shoulders and move forward. You are afraid you might forget, but you never will. You will forgive and remember."


Posts: 4530 | Registered: Dec 2010
Topic Posts: 27
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