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User Topic: Foggy WS's
OK now
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Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just read another post making a reference to WS fog and how it affects the marriage/reconciliation. We are asked to believe that our cheating spouses were in the grip of temporary insanity; that they were unable to make rational decisions. Hell, the implication is that they were not totally to blame for the things they said or did while affected by this misty affliction.

Now that they have been 'cured' the full horror of what they did is apparent. I would like to paraphrase what a WW said a year or two ago; "I am not that person anymore; I cannot understand what I did since I have been essentially reborn -the fog has dissipated and I have radically changed". Talk about evading responsibility.

The process of falling in love or being infatuated with the OP is not an instant one, like catching an infection. Its a gradual procedure in which you give yourself permission to develop feelings for the OP and you are aware of the process taking place. You are also aware of the gradual detachment from your BS as you enter the affair and yet still permit the affair to deepen.

My FWH has not ever claimed he was fogbound at any stage of our reconciliation; he has assumed full responsibility for making disastrous decisions that nearly destroyed our marriage. At least I am grateful for that.

Maybe fog is a blanket description in which we excuse the WS transgressions and relieve them of the burden of some of the guilt by implying that were not of sound mind. Sadly that evades the points I was trying to make earlier - that the sin was committed when the affair was selfishly created, not when wading through the carnage of a broken marriage.


Posts: 1461 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
Bobbi_sue
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Member # 10347
Default  Posted: 12:21 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree.
I don't believe in the concept of the "fog" as it is applied to so many WS. Every time I read "he is still in the fog" I want to cringe. This implies they will one day wake up and come out of some fog then everything will get better.

Why, then, do some marry their OP? Because they never come out of the fog, or is it possible they truly did love the AP?

As much as we all want to help each other, I don't think it is really helpful for BSs to downplay and somewhat excuse what is happening.

Every human being sometimes twists reality a bit and makes excuses for what they are doing, to make it more palatable to themselves or others; this is not some unique trait that people having affairs do. And feelings are REAL at the time you are feeling them. If somebody says they love someone, then they do. It is not the "fog" talking, and it is also not invalidated based on the BS or anybody else saying it can't be "real" because it does not fit OUR definition of love.

For example, I remember one of my first serious boyfriends when I was 18 years old. I was madly in love with him, and when he dumped me, I was downright suicidal.

But within a few weeks, I started to learn a huge lesson in life. He was a worthless, lazy, immoral piece of crap. I could see that clearly when I could not see it when we were "together." But that does not mean I was in the fog. It means it was a progression of my life. Life is a journey and sometimes you grow and learn from it as you go along. And sometimes you fall in love, and sometimes when you get to know that person better, or situations just are not right, you fall out of love with that person.

It is my opinion that most WS who say they were "in love" with the AP, but later come out of the fog and "claim" they never really loved that person, simply fell of love with that person. But I guess if it makes everyone feel better to call it fog, I really don't have a problem with it, even though I don't buy that explanation.


Posts: 5569 | Registered: Apr 2006
rachelc
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Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

give yourself permission to develop feelings for the OP and you are aware of the process taking place. You are also aware of the gradual detachment from your BS as you enter the affair and yet still permit the affair to deepen.

such an important concept, this coming from a former wayward. Yes, absolutely true. AND, the reason I won't accept the "I was a different person after your affair" excuse from my husband. People know when to put the brakes on. Them deciding NOT TO is one of the most important things to uncover when recovering from an affair.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3599 | Registered: Dec 2010
SisterMilkshake
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Member # 30024
Default  Posted: 12:32 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We are asked to believe that our cheating spouses were in the grip of temporary insanity
I understand what you are saying here. That isn't my perception of "fog", though.

I think it as more their convoluted thinking. The leaps and bounds they must make to over ride their logic and morals to justify their bad choice. They can absolutely convince themselves that their thinking is the truth. The marriage re-write, how the BS is an enemy. It isn't insanity. It is compartmentalization and some kind of delusional thinking. They must justify their behaviour. It is imperative to most WS's.

If my FWH was ever in the "fog" I didn't know it or see it.


BW (me) 50ish FWH 50ish
Married 34 years, 3 children
d-day 3/10 LTA (4 yrs./fucking & flirting)

"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson


Posts: 8926 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: The Great White North USA
SummerStorm21
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Member # 41320
Default  Posted: 12:33 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Agree 100%

No fog here. DDay showed true colors.

When WS says things like, "that wasn't him" I ask to meet his twin. Oh you don't have one? I guess it was you, then.

No. More. Stupid.


BW

Posts: 112 | Registered: Nov 2013
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 12:42 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

and this is why it's so hard to separate the person in the affair from the person standing right in front of you. THEY DID THOSE THINGS. THEY SAID THOSE THINGS. It's so difficult to just chalk it up to foggy behavior. No, there are consequences, if you're from this planet or not.


his Ddays: 2/10, 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me: 47
him: 51
4 kiddos in lower 20's

“Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace."


Posts: 3599 | Registered: Dec 2010
HeartbrokenDude
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Member # 41110
Default  Posted: 12:49 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not sure if you're referring to my recent post ("Letter that finally undid my wife") in which I mention the fog. No problem if you are, I welcome the healthy debate!

I myself consider the fog the ridiculous things that people in affairs say to justify why they cheated, and the convoluted "thinking" that they use when trying to rationalize the "why" and/or blameshift. It is all crap in the end, and ultimately a WS needs to accept responsibility.

I cut right through it and called my wife to the carpet on it. With four month's distance and NC, she was able to admit that she was responsible for her own bad choices, fell for a manipulative man that used her, and behaved like a piece of garbage for a year of her life.

[This message edited by HeartbrokenDude at 12:52 PM, December 13th (Friday)]


Posts: 66 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
OK now
♀ Member
Member # 14459
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heartbroken, yes it was your post I read before posting myself. No criticism of your firm decisive approach to your WW; I think you have excellent chance of a good reconciliation. Sorry that you had to go through all of that pain to get there.

Posts: 1461 | Registered: May 2007 | From: NC
HeartbrokenDude
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Member # 41110
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OK Now: Thanks. It's been a nightmare and is not over yet, but I am hopeful.

Posts: 66 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
heartbroken0903
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Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a WW, I agree with you. I don't believe in "the fog." I believe in deliberate choices to make selfish and immoral decisions.

Just speaking for myself...no offense meant to anyone.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce


Posts: 1909 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Kierst13
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Member # 39197
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a WW, I agree with you. I don't believe in "the fog." I believe in deliberate choices to make selfish and immoral decisions.

Thank you for this.

I do not buy into the *fog* either. It takes away the fact WS make a conscious decision to betray and hurt their BS. Yes, it is a deliberate and conscious decision to break vows, trust and be willing to destroy the BS.

They make those choices with each phone call, text, email, touch and all the words they use to lure or keep the AP with them. Each individual act is a deliberate and conscious decision to destroy. Each time they are capable of making a different choice and they choose not to.


Story in my profile
He lied, I gave the gift of R
He became the model remorseful WS...all while lying and seeing her
Am I done? Yes I am!

Posts: 346 | Registered: May 2013
sisoon
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Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We are asked to believe that our cheating spouses were in the grip of temporary insanity; that they were unable to make rational decisions. Hell, the implication is that they were not totally to blame for the things they said or did while affected by this misty affliction.

That's not how I understand 'fog' at all. The WS remains totally responsible for the A and for the 'thinking' she used to conduct her A.

Many of us use the term 'fog' to mean only that the WS has lost touch with reality. My W, for example, was trained to know the correct response to a suicide threat was to call 911, and had done that in another case, but when the threat came from ow, they had sex instead. Something bad had happened to my W's ability to think. She was in a fog.

That didn't affect her consequences - if she really wanted to R, she had to go NC, IC, answer my questions (hours a day at first). All in all, she had to show me she really wanted to R by doing the work of R, while I committed only to evaluate her effort and results and decide to R or D sometime in the future.

You are also aware of the gradual detachment from your BS as you enter the affair and yet still permit the affair to deepen.

Obviously that's true for some WSes, but it's not for others. My W thought she could maintain 2 primary relationships at once. She and ow told each other and themselves that their 'relationship' took nothing from their Ms.

She was fogged up. It's not an excuse - it's just a description, at least for some of us.

When you read the term 'fog', don't jump to a conclusion - detach and really read what's written. If you think it's an excuse, confronting that will be a service. But if the term is being used as a description, jumping on it doesn't contribute anything positive.


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8872 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
sodamnlost
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Member # 37190
Default  Posted: 2:13 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The "fog" to me is just another way to say DENIAL. No need to make it a fancy, nicer name - it's when people refuse to look at their life, take responsibility and change it. That goes for BS's as well - most of us love in denial during WS's affair and for some time after. I just stepped out of denial myself. One day I just asked myself if WH has been showing me who he is right now, why have I not listened to him for 15 months? Crazy making I tell ya!


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - it's not a fluffy pink unicorn squirting liquid rainbows, complete with pots of gold out of it's ass.

Posts: 735 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Nowhere pretty
HeartbrokenDude
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Member # 41110
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm with Sisoon on this one. The Fog does not absolve anyone of blame, and does not make a WS not responsible for their actions. Rather, it seeks to explain the non-sensical, irrational behaviors and justifications that otherwise normal, rational people try to make in the weeks (or even months) after exposure.

When it dissipates, the foggy WS realizes that they were an idiot.


Posts: 66 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: United States
StillStanding1
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Member # 40144
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I like the word comparison to "denial"... the words I was contemplating were not as genteel... more like "fog" = "head up his derriere". Like I told him, it had been up there so long his brain was oxygen-deprived. (He did laugh -- it helps to maintain a sense of humor sometimes.)

I don't see it as an excuse or altered state. Just their own lethal cocktail of self-lies, delusions, and justifications they used to allow themselves to operate outside of what they know to be right.


Me: 40s BS, Him: 40s WH
M 20 yrs - 3 teens
LTA = 2+ yrs, Dday = 2/10/13, he moved out, MC/IC/FC,
He officially moved back in 1/25/14 and our work continues...

Posts: 515 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: MidWest
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


give yourself permission to develop feelings for the OP and you are aware of the process taking place. You are also aware of the gradual detachment from your BS as you enter the affair and yet still permit the affair to deepen.

such an important concept, this coming from a former wayward. Yes, absolutely true. AND, the reason I won't accept the "I was a different person after your affair" excuse from my husband. People know when to put the brakes on. Them deciding NOT TO is one of the most important things to uncover when recovering from an affair.

Sometimes people are deflecting blame when they use the word *fog*. Others use it to describe the lying that was done by the WS to them self to justify what they wanted and chose to do.

I have never understood the *different person* thing. If they werent them self then who the hell were they? Are we talking about demonic possession here? Saying you were a different person when you cheated is like saying some one other than you had the affair. Like saying they were not responsible. Just another deflection IMO.

At every step of the way into her LTA and every step during it WW knew what she was doing was wrong. A *different person* would not have known this. A *fog* bound person would not know this. So then WHY would a person that did not know it was wrong cover it up?

If a person lies about what they are doing then they know its wrong. And they choose to do it anyway. How is this the action of a fog bound demonically possessed person?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3058 | Registered: Sep 2007
SummerStorm21
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Member # 41320
Default  Posted: 6:20 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess for me - there cannot be a fog because he was cheating before we even married. He had long term EA's throughout our relationship. Ramping up to a doozy of an almost PA when he got caught.

So it's just who he is. No irrational stuff. just who he IS. There was no fall from grace. He was just an absolute stellar liar and blameshifter and now he faces the music and of course he's damn uncomfortable with it. He has to admit he has been a jerk for most of his life. I have to come to terms with it too.

I expect a lot of the same, plus defensiveness in the next few weeks as I proceed to hold the mirror up to him. It is going to get ugly before it can possibly get better. But one thing I will not accept is blaming anything other than his own choices.


BW

Posts: 112 | Registered: Nov 2013
Topic Posts: 17

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