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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 1:56 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ready_to_Run - I don't think gender makes a difference for your question. The basis for the action isn't rooted in reality, which is why it's so confusing when you're on the outside looking in. When we let our defenses down and allow the fantasy to take over, no logic is applied.

So why get involved with this guy? Odds are the fantasy started with the vision of an international adventure. Something that makes the OP look more attractive than they truly are, and every word they say being more enticing. As long as you're fantasizing, the protection concept would be easy enough to discard, because no one's fantasy person would dare to have a disease, right?

Each of us have somewhat different reasons for why and how we cheated. But the bottom line is it all starts with a lie we tell to ourselves. That cascades into a series of lies to keep the fantasy going. At some point, you don't even know what reality is anymore.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 24 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4467 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
notsureandscared
New Member
Member # 43363
Default  Posted: 2:11 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok.... My husband has cheated on me several times... The latest.... A month ago. He told me that he loved her and he's never felt this way before about anyone..... He feels like he's in high school.... Anyway..... He couldn't choose who he wanted ... Me or her.... And I chose for him.... I made him leave.... He didn't fight for me.. He left.... He left on a Wednesday ..... Sunday comes around and he starts texting me pictures of him crying... Telling me how sorry he is and that he wanted to come home....etc.... I let him come home..... The first week he did everything he said he was going to ...... But now the past few weeks he seems distant and acts like he doesn't want to be here. When I ask him about it he says that he's here and that if he didn't want to be then he wouldn't. Everytime I try to talk about how I'm feeling he gets frustrated with me and tells me that he doesn't want to talk about it and he wants to act like it never happened....... It's almost like he shows no remorse... No guilt.... ???? As a WS .... What is your opinion.... ??? Is he missing the OW ? Regretting coming back home??? Help?


BW- me 35
WH- him 34
Married 15 years 5/8/99
2 kids .... 11 and 12
D Day - 04/16/2014


Posts: 8 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Ohio
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 2:46 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Everytime I try to talk about how I'm feeling he gets frustrated with me and tells me that he doesn't want to talk about it and he wants to act like it never happened

You've painted a picture of a man who is interested only in his own feelings, and probably has no empathy. Could be I'm projecting, because that's how I was. If he's like me, he doesn't feel guilt (or anything) like normal humans.

He's cheated on you several times, and it has little to do with the *actual women* in each case. It's him, he's addicted to the "teenage infatuation" high he gets. What he's doing now at home with you, sounds like what we call "white knuckling." He'll grin and bear it for awhile, but yes, he's Jonesing for a fix of Teenage Infatuation. It's a habit he won't kick until he decides he wants to. Continuing to take him back, I'm afraid, may teach him that his actions have few consequences. I'm so sorry you're in this awful situation. Take care of yourself, and good luck.


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1044 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 3:09 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I ask him about it he says that he's here and that if he didn't want to be then he wouldn't. Everytime I try to talk about how I'm feeling he gets frustrated with me and tells me that he doesn't want to talk about it and he wants to act like it never happened.

The hardest thing for a WS to face is the impact of their own actions. So each time you tell him how you feel, he's likely falling deeper into self loathing and driving a figurative knife into his own gut. Affairs are a cowardly action to begin with, so a WS often won't have the strength to face the consequences of their own actions.

That said, you need to bring clarity to the situation. One of the best gifts my wife gave was when I asked about considering a trial S, she refused. Her terms were clear. We were either both all in for working toward a better us, or we were done. There is no half way here.

It would be best to set clear and non-negotiable terms. IF he is all in, fine. That means he goes to IC. He finds the real reason for why he's done what he's done and fixes it. He allows you to express how you feel without trying to diminish it. He seeks to find what he needs to do to make you whole ahead of his need to hide from his own actions. He locks in NC with the OP and commits to making his focus 100% on you. And if he can't make this level of commitment, you explore a way to end the relationship.

Missing the OW? Probably not that person. He's missing the escape from reality. The escape from facing the results of his own choices. He needs to be held accountable to giving up on that escape, because it is what gets him in trouble in the first place.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 24 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4467 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Ready_to_run
♂ Member
Member # 20954
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, May 15th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The basis for the action isn't rooted in reality, which is why it's so confusing when you're on the outside looking in. When we let our defenses down and allow the fantasy to take over, no logic is applied.
So why get involved with this guy? Odds are the fantasy started with the vision of an international adventure. Something that makes the OP look more attractive than they truly are, and every word they say being more enticing. As long as you're fantasizing, the protection concept would be easy enough to discard, because no one's fantasy person would dare to have a disease, right?

Listenclosely, Thank you for the reply. This makes so much sense! Then combine that with the fact that her self worth was at an all time low at the time and there you have it.


BH
Divorced


Posts: 750 | Registered: Sep 2008
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, May 16th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

When I ask him about it he says that he's here and that if he didn't want to be then he wouldn't. Everytime I try to talk about how I'm feeling he gets frustrated with me and tells me that he doesn't want to talk about it and he wants to act like it never happened....... It's almost like he shows no remorse

What is he doing to change himself? If it's nothing, then whatever hole he was trying to fill with the A is still there.

What he's doing now at home with you, sounds like what we call "white knuckling." He'll grin and bear it for awhile, but yes, he's Jonesing for a fix of Teenage Infatuation. It's a habit he won't kick until he decides he wants to.

20Wrongs is 100% correct. He's the same person until he starts to fix what is wrong.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 380 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
familyfirst
♀ Member
Member # 42651
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, May 16th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is he missing the OW?

Yeah, probably. That doesn't mean he won't get over that feeling and someday soon radically change the way he feels about her. My remorse didn't hit until after I came out of the fog.


Posts: 118 | Registered: Mar 2014
heartbrokeninaz
♀ Member
Member # 40779
Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, May 16th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How many of you slipped again after dd1? Did you work through it or not? Please see my earlier post on page 40. Thank you!


BW 40 (me)
WH 40
DDay 1 07/31/13 ONS with horseface
DDay 2 05/09/14 inappropriate texts
with another OW
One last shot

Posts: 161 | Registered: Sep 2013
Listeningclosely
♂ Member
Member # 16472
Default  Posted: 8:49 PM, May 16th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

heartbrokeninaz -

How many of you slipped again after dd1? Did you work through it or not?

While I didn't slip, I can say I was still foggy for a few months after DD. You spend so much time lying to yourself and believing something that's not real that it takes a while for it all to clear.

I also traveled a lot when my A took place. The biggest problem in hindsight is that when you travel like that you have a lot of time to just let thoughts run through your head. I would spend a lot of time in hotel rooms eating room service with no company but the TV and a laptop. I could see how someone going to a bar would substitute casual conversation for something more than that. And yes, alcohol will in most cases aid bad behavior. You let your guard down too much when your not 100% sober.

I still had to travel for a while after the A. I tried to shift my behavior to text my BW more and to immerse in work. Anything that kept my mind active on something healthy.

While this may "explain" things, it still has to be nipped in the bud. Boundaries are boundaries. And if your WH can't maintain them then he has a ton more work to do.


BW(her)- 45, FWH (me) 48
4 month Online EA
M 24 years, together for 28
4 Daughters - 21, 18, 14 and 12
d-day 6/2/07, in R
FORGIVENESS 1/1/2008!!!
"Action expresses priorities." -
Mohandas Gandhi

Posts: 4467 | Registered: Oct 2007 | From: One Particular Harbour
Trying2LoveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 43024
Default  Posted: 2:02 AM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pastthelies, Thank you so much for your input. I think our situations are quite different however you gave me something to think about. Thanks again!

Posts: 111 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: New Mexico
lovehonorcherish
♀ Member
Member # 41843
Default  Posted: 8:37 AM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm hoping this is the correct place to ask questions...if not I will apologize in advance. I read something on a different forum here that seems to be bothersome for many BS's. My question to the WS: For those of you that actually ended up with the AP...how did that really work out for you? Were you able to succeed in building a lasting relationship with him/her? Once reality set in did the AP really turn out to be the person you had built them up to be?


I am no longer accepting the things I cannot change...I am changing the things I cannot accept.

Posts: 120 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: Northeastern US
notsureandscared
New Member
Member # 43363
Default  Posted: 9:00 AM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the responses from my earlier post ...... It's much appreciated ....... I do need some more advice because of last night I checked his phone and he's looking her up on Facebook ..... Of course I confront him and he says he doesn't know why he did it. I think he still wants her. Should I just give up? My marriage is really over isn't it???


BW- me 35
WH- him 34
Married 15 years 5/8/99
2 kids .... 11 and 12
D Day - 04/16/2014


Posts: 8 | Registered: May 2014 | From: Ohio
Imissmyhusb
♀ Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ok so I told WH to start phasing COW out of his personal life and stick to whatevr they absolutely have to discuss regardg work. She shld no longer hav access to him in this way.

He got upset bcuz he feels that she was a friend to him and he would never desert a friend even in this situation where he feels he is in control and the A is over.

Have any of u WSs considered your AP a real friend and wanted to maintain a friendship w them? I know its crazy but i hav to ask


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 197 | Registered: Mar 2014
jendo
♀ Member
Member # 43059
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, May 17th (Saturday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH was in an EA for 5 months before I discovered it. It was with a much younger intern at his office. Dday was 6 weeks ago. He claims no PA although his EA consisted of graphic sexual discussion. They also were "in love". He says that sex was a boundary he could not cross for some reason. He is extremely remorseful and feels very guilty and devastated now that the fog has lifted. R is going well. She stopped working at his office about half way through the EA and had no access to a vehicle, lived far away, so I have been told their relationship was mainly via FB messaging and Skype (although he claims no Skype sex- she did flash him a couple of times I guess)- Skype was used to talk because she did not have a phone.

My questions are:

1. Are there others who had an EA and ended up "in love"? How do you get to the point of love without a physical relationship?

2. Have other BSs had a lot of sexual discussion (his was quite graphic) without physical contact? To me this is so foreign- I don't understand how he could draw the line at just talk.

One last point, very quickly after the A was discovered and the fog had lifted he realized that he was not in love with her at all, but was rather in love with the attention she gave him and the escape it was from his real life. He says he has no fond memories of her and seems genuinely crushed by his actions and the results it has had on our family.

Thanks!


BW (me) 41
WH 40
3 kids
Dday 4/3/14 EA - They were "in love"
Married 20 years
Working on R

Posts: 120 | Registered: Apr 2014
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 2:06 AM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'll try to answer these questions to the best of my abilities.

@lovehonorcherish:

I never stayed with the AP, I can't think of anyone here on SI who did end up staying with the AP although I could be wrong. I'm sorry I don't have much to offer but I can tell you that that fantasy bubble bursts rather quickly once kids and bills come along. My grandfather married his AP before I was even conceived and I could tell as I grew up he regretted it; although he'd never admit it. He knew he blew it. He knew she was more beautiful,sweeter, just all around better. Plus she could sing professional opera. Anyway, he would never admit it but I could always tell. Sorry if that answer didn't help much. "An affair born in betrayal will end in ashes."

@notsureandscared:
Your WS knows why he was looking her up, he's just too scared to tell you. YOU get to put the hammer down on this relationship and decide when it's over. How much are you willing to put up with? For how long?


@Imissmyhusb:
Your question is not crazy. The AP is NOT a friend of the marriage. The AP was and forever will be an enemy to the marriage ALONG WITH any "friends" who helped the WS conceal and "root for" the A. Your WS is lying to himself if he thinks the AP is a friend and she deserves no apologies. Would you apologize to a murderer? Forgive, maybe in like, 50 years. Apologize to? I seriously doubt it.This needs to be made crystal fucking clear to your WS.

@Jendo:
1. I personally never felt "in love" with the AP though I know it is very common. The "love" that many feel is not love but the rush of the drug. The feeling you got is what you loved, not the person. Thinking you're feelings are being validated, that you're important/sexy/smart. Some people are in love with the thought of being in love. As far as the physical activity aspect, I really don't know. There are many people on different sides of the fence who have sexless relationships but are in love.

2.I'm sure there is a lot of discussion with no contact. But who's to say how long your H's A would have gone on before it actually went to a full on PA? Your H may have been trying to figure out a way to meet up with the AP, or have sex on skype or whatever and the whole graphic talk is just one step away from the full act. Or maybe your H still had a little bit of conscience to hold him back. I can't answer for him but I'm sure this can be addressed in counseling.

Your last point, I believe, is a partial answer to your first question. I hope I helped answer your questions.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 2:06 AM, May 18th (Sunday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
Imissmyhusb
♀ Member
Member # 42734
Default  Posted: 12:12 PM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank u stilllovinghim

WH believes she is his friend because she covered for him at work, gave his ego a good stroking and listened to him when he needed an ear. He felt alone in our marriage, felt that nobody else was there for him. I know she was never a friend of his or of the marriage, otherwise this would never have happend.

I guess he is not yet out of the fog, remorseful, etc. Seems like he will choose to be her friend and lose his wife. Tragic

[This message edited by Imissmyhusb at 12:17 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]


Met '95 - dated '97 - married '03 - dday '13
3 kids 7y and 4y twins, me - sahm since '07, him - idk him any more
~~~~~~~~~
Just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, it became a butterfly.

Posts: 197 | Registered: Mar 2014
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:10 PM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WSes
My H is more than willing to talk about the details of the affair, but gets frustrated when I make a distinction between a discrete event (i.e. having sex someplace risky/trashy, or having unprotected sex) and how I don't understand how it is that part of him did not see it as trashy/dangerous during the time. (He does see it now, obviously.)

He maintains that the affair was one, long (2+ month) event for him once it started -- that once he descended into it, he didn't see things as rational choice A and choice B. He basically suspended most judgement and most rational thought.

I have such a hard time with this. If this was true for you, and if you have gotten your BS to understand this, how did you do it? I get hung up on the whole "how could you it" details of particular things, and don't know how to get out of there. The details hurt for BSes. My H doesn't deny that, and wants me to express my feelings. What he hates is when I say he should have felt/though differently then. His answer is, "if I had felt/thought differently (and correctly) then, it wouldn't have been an affair." i.e if he could have been able to see that having sex in the family truck was a degrading, cruel and hurtful thing to do, he wouldn't have done it.

It is almost as if I have to assume, and accept, that he was batshit crazy for 2 months.

[This message edited by bionicgal at 1:25 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1750 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Trying2LoveAgain
♀ Member
Member # 43024
Default  Posted: 4:35 PM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@bionicgal, I feel the same way toward my WS, not understanding WHY he didn't realize how hurtful an A would be #1, but to actually have sex in certain places (ie: your family truck), my home (although now he says he's not even sure it happened there...his A was 25 years ago, I only found out about it 8 mos.ago!). I have asked him about that, also about having unprotected sex...did he NOT worry she could have become pregnant? What about diseases? How could he have NOT thought about our boys (who were 10 & 5 at the time)? This is very hard for me to accept and understand as well. He tells me that at the time, he did not consider ANYONE's feelings, didn't care about the AP feelings for sure and honestly didn't even THINK about any of those things! He knows he let her into our home once when I was not there (this is the time he can't remember if sex even happened or not) but now realizes just how devastating that is to me...how violated I feel that she was in my "personal space", OUR home!(His AP was my brother's wife, who STILL DOESN'T CARE THAT SHE HURT PEOPLE).I just believe that was part of the problem...they just didn't THINK at all! I'm so sorry you are dealing with this too!Sending thoughts, prayers and hugs your way...

Posts: 111 | Registered: Apr 2014 | From: New Mexico
stilllovinghim
♀ Member
Member # 29971
Default  Posted: 10:02 PM, May 18th (Sunday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@Bionoc & Trying2:

A lot of WS's are really good at compartmentalizing. It's something that EVERYONE does but to a different degree. I'll give you two different examples one being extreme and the other not but BOTH are examples of compartmentalizing.

1: You are having a really bad day at work and everything is going wrong. You get in your car pissed off and fuming still thinking of the day. You get home, open the door, and your child is standing there,crying. She got hurt and needs your love and attention. You immediately rush to her side forgetting the entire work day and focusing solely on your child's safety and well-being. You've put your whole shitty day behind you. It might pop up again for a second, but you immediately dismiss it. Now, so there's no confusion, this example doesn't necessarily mean your day wasn't shitty and you just minimized the situation. What you did was you took something and put it in a "mental compartment" in your head and you may or may not go back to it later.

2: A person who has suffered traumatic abuse such as mental/physical/sexual. These types of traumas are compartmentalized. They are put away mentally so that the person can function without repeating over and over and over the trauma. They haven't forgotten it, but they don't exactly tell everyone about it at the next social gathering.

The first example was a minor one and the second a more severe one. I'm sure you've caught the drift.

A lot of times when a WS cheats, they minimize the situation and compartmentalize the events as well.

When I look back on what I did I could just kick my own ass. Going to a (practically) stranger's house by myself. Yeah REAL smart. I could have been tied up in a basement and skinned alive. You don't think about those things at the time during the throngs of an A. Yeah your H fucking his AP in the truck was skanky and dirty but he didn't see it that way until only after the A because the rose colored glasses came off and his head (hopefully) has retracted from his asshole.

There's a lot of shit us WS's look back on afterwards and just think to ourselves "wtf was I thinking? Who am I? How could I have done this? Oh God what if xyz would have happened?..." etc.

I think you get the drift by now. This doesn't excuse the behavior by any means, this is simply an explanation of shitty behavior.

[This message edited by stilllovinghim at 10:04 PM, May 18th (Sunday)]


“You have a choice. Live or die.Every breath is a choice. Every minute is a choice. Every time you don't throw yourself down the stairs, that's a choice. Every time you don't crash your car, you re-enlist.”
― Chuck Palahniuk, Survivor

Posts: 1942 | Registered: Oct 2010
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, May 19th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

notsureandscared --

I hope to repeat the advice that smarter and more evolved people have said on this site. Your situation is not unique. You cannot hope to R if there are three people in your M -- you, WH, and AP. Until you get AP completely out of WH's life, you are still at the starting line.

There are lots of stories here of a WS being in "a fog" for a while after DDay. That they still have feelings for the AP, or at least do not know how to address the hole that AP was filling. That isn't always fatal. If your DDay is close to your registration date, you are in the time period where WS's are in the fog. Some WS come out of the fog, either on their own or with a push from the BS. Some WS do not come out of the fog.

Look at the healing library for the "180." Take care of yourself. Don't wait for WS to get it.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 380 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
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