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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:45 AM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did anyone's WW plan on marring the OM?


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Guss
♂ New Member
Member # 39113
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you very much HUFI PUFI and also for correcting my language!
I sincerely appreciate your response. It has challenged me to revisit my theory about WWís claimed ONE SINGLE PHYSICAL ENCOUNTER IN A THREE YEAR AFFAIR. A little more insight would perhaps throw some light. WW is very good at lying and gaslighting, rugsweeping and minimizing the A. This was particularly the case in the early stages of the A. I know she is remorseful but, IMHO she is now driven more by shame, embarrassment and perhaps fear of the repercussions (i.e. collapse of the M) should more revelations occur. I am saying this because when I discovered A1 in April, 2013, little did I know that A2 was lurking in the shadows (and driven underground) until three months later. And that was after my own digging (largely through the examination of frequent call logs) It was at that point that WW became extremely fearful of making further revelations. A huge red flag for me.

HUFI PUFI, you specifically observed:

Think of it this way. What does she gain from her story of I physical encounter that she would not get from a confession of 4 physical encounters. Had you somehow indicated that 1 encounter would allow for the chance of R but a confession of more would take R off the table? If you had done this, she might have a reason to continue the lies but I don't think its fair to automatically assume that her statement is a LIE unless you have something more to back up this feeling. And according to your post, all you have is fear and a suspicion.

Let me clarify that I never indicated to WW that 1 physical encounter was tolerable and that more than that would be a deal breaker. However, what I have observed is that as I have been tightening the noose (forgive the euphemism) WW has become increasingly cagey, confused, panicky, paranoid. Hence my suspicions that they are still some lies lying underneath of which this (the real frequency of physical encounters) seems to be paramount.

BTW, WW and AP1 were young lovers before our M. They never consummated their love (so she claims) until they both married others. However, living with AP in the same town, as we do, with enormous opportunities for the APs to meet almost every weekend, I have no reason to doubt that they would have had numerous opportunities for more physical encounters especially when you consider that that the alleged single physical encounter took place within this very same town.

Against the above background, it is my considered opinion that WW is simply trying to minimize the damage. She claims that she was consumed by guilt after that single physical encounter and decided to simply invest in the E aspects of the A. For me the bone of contention is what I consider to be her LYING and not the actual frequency of the physical encounters. In my considered opinion my WW (like most women, I suppose) has framed it in her mind that men typically have a hard time coming to terms with the physical aspect of the A as opposed to the E aspect of it, hence here continued underplaying the physical encounter card. In other words, she would like to minimize the ďsluttyĒ picture and accentuate the more innocent ďemotionally needyĒ picture and in so doing gain some sympathy from me in the R process. Problem again for me in all this, is the apparent LYING. Or rather, what I consider to be her lying to minimize the damage. Thatís what is frustrating my healing because it raises serious questions about her remorsefulness.
I do not know if my rumbling is making any sense at all.
Once again, many thanks for the feedback. Please keep the comments flowing.

BH(Me) = 48
WW = 46
M = 10 years
DD = April, 20, 2013
Kids: (10&8)
Painstaking R journey


Posts: 25 | Registered: Apr 2013
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokenbuttrying did you think that at the time... or did this come as a realisation afterwards?

I sort of realised it at the time, yes. But only partly.

At the time before the A, I was in a very dark place. I didn't want to leave BH and my M at all (I knew that during my A) But I just gave on everything. I was in crisis and in a desperate place. The A was the drug I used to escape myself. That was the realisation that came later in IC.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1235 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, April 1st (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did anyone's WW plan on marring the OM?

Yes. But thankfully I wised up before it ever got near that point.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2144 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
william
Member
Member # 41986
Default  Posted: 1:18 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

my ww rarely brings up her affairs or initiates conversations on or about them, despite the fact that she has acknowledged that we need to discuss them more (both to finish timeline and to resolve issues).

is it normal for the ws to avoid initiating conversations about their A? if so, why (shame, hoping the elephant in the room disappears, fear of hurting bs, ???)?


me - bh
her - lara01

from 09/11 - 05/13
2 ONS, 10 sexting partners, 1 LT EA/PA

??/06/13 DD/1 - admits to LT EA, begin false R.
01/13/14 DD/2 - LTA was PA.
01/18/14 DD/3 - sexting 5 guys.
01/19/14 DD/4 - 2 ONS with different guys


Posts: 544 | Registered: Jan 2014
Dawn58
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Member # 37656
Default  Posted: 2:16 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WS never showed any remorse and chose to be with the OW. We've been separated for 16 months, the first mediation is in a few weeks. He and the OW got engaged last June and she is currently living with him, in the house we shared.

Will he ever feel bad for what he did? I was his third wife, he cheated on me and I found out he cheated twice on his second wife. He blamed me for the demise of the marriage.

I don't know what to expect from him during mediation. His attorney has taken on a very aggressive stance (he chose a very expensive, Beverly Hills attorney.). The last time I saw him, was at a social event, and he came up behind me, tapped me on the shoulder, said he just wanted to say Hi, and stuck out his hand to shake my hand. I don't want him to approach me.

I thought I knew who he was, but I did not.....


I got into the marriage, because I loved him. I got out of the marriage, because I love me.

Posts: 468 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Southern California
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 8:11 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

is it normal for the ws to avoid initiating conversations about their A? if so, why (shame, hoping the elephant in the room disappears, fear of hurting bs, ???)?

Yes. Even though I realize it is helpful for healing, talking about it is painful. It sends me into a spiral of depression. I worry about saying the "wrong" thing, or BH misinterpreting what I'm trying to say (that's more of a communication style thing - BH is very quick minded and confrontational, but it takes me longer to come up with appropriate words and I can't always respond as quickly or thoroughly). I guess I can also say that it gets frustrating going over the same questions. Sometimes BH will ask me something and I have to catch myself from saying "but I already answered that!".

I've also been thinking recently about how I feel like such a different person, that it is difficult to express how I did feel at the time and what I was really thinking. So now it's more like I'm guessing at what was in my subconscious and trying to make sense of it all. Things are so different now that I can barely remember the BH that I was so angry at, or myself that was feeling so desperate and lost.


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 214 | Registered: Jan 2014
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:56 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heartbroken
Did anyone's WW plan on marring the OM?
Yes. But thankfully I wised up before it ever got near that point.

Did you plan to marry during the A or after? When I found these texts between my WW and OM, addressing him as Hubby and talking about being his wife I simply fell apart. I am not sure what to think upon discovering these things.

Does it mean I should just divorce and move on or should I just give it time. I already got the divorce papers and will be feeling them out tonight. Both limited and absolute.

I just don't know what to think... and just wish I could have some clear understanding.

I did have a revelation because the MC gave us some papers about forgiveness and it said, until the person is ready to take responsibility than I shouldn't reconcile with them.

Also, I read your profile, when you said you were fence sitting, can you tell me what that looked like for you?

[This message edited by LostSamurai at 8:59 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday)]


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 9:03 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Guss - A little more insight would perhaps throw some light. WW is very good at lying and gas-lighting, rug-sweeping and minimizing the A. This was particularly the case in the early stages of the A. I know she is remorseful but, IMHO she is now driven more by shame, embarrassment and perhaps fear of the repercussions (i.e. collapse of the M) should more revelations occur.

Well, in truth, you live with her and have a history with her, so you would know more than I ever could as to her apparent level of remorse and regret and her actions regarding minimization and lying. I never doubted your apparent reality, I was just offering an alternative viewpoint for consideration. That said, the more we know, the more insight we do get into motivation and behavior.

Guss - However, what I have observed is that as I have been tightening the noose (forgive the euphemism) WW has become increasingly cagey, confused, panicky, paranoid. Hence my suspicions that they are still some lies lying underneath of which this (the real frequency of physical encounters) seems to be paramount.

If she actually goes from calm and quiet to agitated and excitable when you put the pressure on (the noose analogy seems harsh ), then it would seem that your suspicions have grounds. In my experience, when I struggled with admitting things, it comes out in defensive reactions of "i don't know, I'm not sure" rather than minimizing. But everyone's reaction can be different.

Guss - BTW, WW and AP1 were young lovers before our M.

Upon reading that statement, my first reaction, based on my own EA experience, would be that the "old flame / lost lover" history might support her claim that the affair was much more emotional as compared to a physical one. In my own affair, the emotional connection that I created in my fantasy world with the AP was paramount. In some respects, having a physical encounter would have put the whole EA thing at risk. In my EA driven fantasy, our kisses were like fire, creating sparks. In real life, she might have had bad breath and bad teeth. Keeping the fantasy alive is very important in a ex-lover relationship, specifically as teens and young adults. http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200606/lost-love-guess-whos-back

Guss - Problem again for me in all this, is the apparent LYING. Or rather, what I consider to be her lying to minimize the damage ... Thatís what is frustrating my healing because it raises serious questions about her remorselessness.

Being remorseful does not automatically mean the WS stops lying, minimizing and defensive. If those are the default behaviors pre-A, they will continue to be the default behaviors post-A.

This is why putting the 180 into practice is imperative. By setting boundaries and following up with the consequences of non-compliance, it forces the WS to either shit or get off the pot. If you are still waiting for a detailed timeline, almost one year out, it appears that your are not being assertive enough. Maybe, you need to step up the game.

HUFI


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3265 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 10:37 AM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Dawn58 - Will he ever feel bad for what he did?

From what you wrote concerning his serial cheating history and the fact that you say he feels no remorse, I think the apparent answer is NO, he will never feel bad for betraying his vows with you. Chances are that if he is living with the OW, he has somehow managed to move on and put all the baggage in a very large room in the back of his head.

More importantly, since you are have been separated and he is currently living with the OW, the question remains why are you still fixated on what his feelings are? He's made his bed and has to live with his decisions. You have a new life in front of yourself and considering the history, you shouldn't be wasting any of your time and energy in the blame game.

As far as his expectations regarding divorce mediation, I would suggest that instead of just "wondering" about this, you need to sit down with your own lawyer as they are in the best place to determine that and advise you accordingly.

HUFI


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3265 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
99lawdog99
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Member # 42615
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the reply Hufi-Pufi. That's exactly what she tells me. She doesn't understand who she was or why she did it. I guess I understand but it is so hard to believe she could act like that and keep saying that she loved me while doing that with him and telling him the same thing.


Me 54
WW 45
Married 25 years, together 27 WW's first and only til A
In R
"Sometimes we have to be knocked down to our lowest point so that we can reach our highest Level"

Posts: 117 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: pa
SofaKingWeToddId
♂ New Member
Member # 41862
Default  Posted: 3:00 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As a wayward, did you ever talk negatively about people having affairs while you were actively having one yourself? Or after your affair ended, but before your SO found out?

Thanks!


Posts: 8 | Registered: Dec 2013
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, April 2nd (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai,

It was during the affair. I spent the majority of the affair either believing I would eventually get up the courage to leave my marriage for the OM or actively trying to muster up said courage (since it was not miraculously appearing on its own). After the affair was discovered, and then even after I was divorced, I felt that continuing a relationship with the OM (let alone marrying him) was not something I wanted to do.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2144 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Duskpearl
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Member # 41870
Default  Posted: 5:28 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heartbroken0903 " I do believe that extramarital sex is an indicator of a flawed sense of self in the WS---lack of self-worth, lack of self-respect, lack of self-love."

Heartbroken - it is my understanding that most people have A because of a sense of self entitlement. Does this not mean that these types of people value themselves above all others, which contradicts what you say above about lack of self-worth, lack of self-love (IMO).

Or am I wrong to tar all WS with the same brush?

As a BS I currently lack self worth because of my WH betrayal.

[This message edited by Duskpearl at 5:32 AM, April 3rd (Thursday)]


Sometimes your heart needs more time to accept what your mind already knows

Posts: 65 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Australia
HUFI-PUFI
♂ Member
Member # 25460
Default  Posted: 9:09 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Duskpearl - it is my understanding that most people have A because of a sense of self entitlement. Or am I wrong to tar all WS with the same brush?

YES, you're wrong in assuming that most people have their affairs due to a overblown sense of self-entitlement.

In truth, while me may fit into categories, the reality is that most of us came here via our own personal story. The reasons vary from WS to WS. In fact, determining why is the real job that a WS faces in the aftermath of the affair. Only by knowing how and why can we take confident steps to create a safe environment where we have the skills and knowledge to not repeat our mistakes again.

FOr instance, Ruth Huston figures that there are 25 reasons for cheating, Susan Krauss Whitbourne feels that there are 8 primary reasons and Renee Lee's claims there are only 5 reasons. Who do you figure is right?

Depending on the expert you listen to, they can be classed as bridge or exit affair, the self-serving affair or the the repair affair. Additionally, there are midlife crisis affairs, the revenge affair, the accidental affair, trading up affair, indulgence affair, the sexual addiction affair and the sexual deprivation affair. According to the experts, the act is the same but the driving motivation is different.

When even the experts can't agree, then we're faced with the realization that each affair is unique.

I believe that each type of affairs serves a different purpose for the WS. One may be motivated by compulsion, another by strong personal needs for excitement, another for revenge, another to maintain distance in all relationships another to project blame onto someone or something else.

It sounds obvious but its important to note that these motives do not derive from the marriage or BS but rather, the roots arise from the personal coping patterns of the WS. As well, these motives, patterns and characteristics more often than not were well set before the marital couple met. The WS, at some level, needed to "play out" these patterns. The sad reality is for some of us, most, if not all of this acting out, or the motives for acting out, was well beyond our conscious awareness and more a subconscious behavior.

HUFI

To my regret, I have now learnt that my own heart and mind are not always my best friend either as I try to peel away the onion of intertwined thoughts, actions, emotions, fears, passions and destructive behaviours that brought me to this affair Ė HUFI


[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 9:05 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]


Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused. Donít listen to your heart, its fickle. Listen to your soul, God doesn't steer you wrong.

Posts: 3265 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Azilda, Northern Ontario
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:27 AM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

William --

is it normal for the ws to avoid initiating conversations about their A? if so, why (shame, hoping the elephant in the room disappears, fear of hurting bs, ???)?

In my case, this is very true. I am open to talk anytime BW wants to. But there is so much shame. And those conversations always lead to BW crying and/or being angry. Those are all expected things, but that doesn't make them easier to get through. This is a reason for both WS and BS to avoid them.

I will open the door to see if BW wants to talk. I'll check in and say "do you want to talk" or "is there anything that you need to see or hear" or something like that. But if the answer is no, I don't continue.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 538 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Duskpearl,

I had a longer response typed but my phone ate it.

The short and sweet version is that I don't believe an overblown sense of entitlement and ego has anything to do with self-love or self-respect. Healthy people who love and respect themselves (and others) don't choose destructive and hurtful behavior.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2144 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
hurtingarmywife
♀ New Member
Member # 38690
Default  Posted: 10:33 PM, April 3rd (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just curious if any WW's asked the OW to marry them because of feeling "badgered" by the OW constantly wanting a ring.My WH did this and confessed everything to me. He said the 5 months they were together, she would make threats to tell about the A. According to my H, he gave her a ring to quit asking all the time. Does this make sense? He took the ring back a few weeks after he gave it to her. He also got it at a pawn shop.I am still trying to rap my brain around this.He said the guilt was terrible and it kills him to think what he did to me. Just wondering if anyone out there did the same thing. Thank you!
Married-30 years
DDay Jan. 31, 2013

[This message edited by hurtingarmywife at 10:34 PM, April 3rd (Thursday)]


Posts: 34 | Registered: Mar 2013 | From: midwest
kiki1
♀ Member
Member # 37184
Default  Posted: 9:21 AM, April 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a similiar question in regards to this thread that i hope some ws will give me insight on.

My wh wanted to leave me for ow #1, but she wasnt having any of that and dumped him. He then moved on to ow #2.

He tells me he had "feelings" for Ow#1. More than once he has stated she was "fun" to be around. I sense that he still has feelings for her, feels the love (?) he had for her is unrequited and that he missed the opportunity to be with the one he wanted more than me. Though he denies this. But i listen and watch carefully to his responses to things and dont feel he is being truthful.

OW#1 was a blonde (i'm a brunette) and while watching tv last night, one came on and he sighed twice. I've noticed once before when a commercial was on about a woman and her truck (she drove one at the time) that he became angry, throwing something he was holding down onto his lap.

He also will refer to ow#2 as a pig, but doesnt give that designation to ow#1. Had sex with 2, but made love with #1.

What does this indicate? Can anyone help me identify what he is actually feeling at these times. I'm afraid i know, but i'm just looking for any other possible reasons.

thank you for your help


Posts: 568 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: new york
WearingTheHorns
♂ Member
Member # 37916
Default  Posted: 1:11 PM, April 4th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a question regarding remorse. I understand a WS not wanting to bring the subject up, but does that mean never bringing it up? My WW has rugswept, and generally her way of dealing is burying her head in the sand. Whenever infidelity comes up on TV or in a conversation, or in whatever way I have a visible reaction. Maybe not a strong one, but a physical reaction. Usually I can see her out of the corner of my eye, or I even shoot her a look when it happens. I know she has to notice. I've always thought that's the perfect time for her to bring it up if for no other reason just to check in with me. You know, "I say you react to that. Are you ok? Do you need to talk?" something along those lines. Instead what happens is she suddenly wants to watch something else, or go do something or go somewhere. Or changes the subject to something she "knows" I'll become engrossed in.

Am I wrong in thinking that? Or is that when I should bring it up? I don't bring it up to her anymore because the last time I did was two weeks after having been one of the places where she and AP1 had had sex. When I told her it'd been bothering me, she acknowledged she could tell at the time (what she did then was start talking about a remodeling project we wanted to do). She then said, "Let me tell you what's been bothering me for the last two months" and launched into a tirade about how I wasn't looking hard enough for a job (I was about 3 months unemployed at the time). So, since I felt like I was basically told "I don't give a damn how you feel about it" I decided to let her have it her way.

Anyway, the question is, during those times who should be the one to bring it up?


Dday: over a period of three days 11/14-16/2012.
EA/PA: ~ 2 1/2 years
EA/beginning PA: ~ 10 months

"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony
2 Cor 12:9-10


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