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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 4:04 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How could my WH throw everything away ( me, our kids, his reputation, potentially his job)
to have sex with OW, & now he says that he doesn't care at all about her?
If she was worth risking losing everything for, how does she mean nothing to him now?

When we decided to R, he started saying "I love you" to me, but what does that mean? How could he do this to me if he loved me?

This is a question my BH is struggling with now. And it's so hard for me to answer because it doesn't make any sense. For me, the A wasn't about the AP or about BH. It was about ME. Me feeling like I needed validation, attention, and needing it so desperately that I would take it from whoever offered it to me in whatever form I could get. Nothing I experienced during the A (even getting the "validation" I was seeking) was worth it.


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
Wayflost
♀ Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 4:56 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mchercheur- Jovie is absolutely correct.

How could my WH throw everything away ( me, our kids, his reputation, potentially his job)

When in the A place a WS can't see the forest for the trees, unless they are truly narcissistic or psychopathic. I never once really understood that was what I was doing. Waking up post discovery made it real for me.

If she was worth risking losing everything for, how does she mean nothing to him now?

As Jovie said, it wasn't worth it. I am sure that if your WH is remorseful he will agree that his AP was NOT worth it. And at the end of the day the risk was taken because of what is broken in the WS. At least, that is what I've concluded. I look at the ruin around me and think "What was I thinking? How could I have done this, and how could I have rationalized it as anything other than what it is?"

I'm broken, but I'm awake now. I can fix myself. But the choice to engage in lying, cheating, deceptive behavior will never be "worth it." NEVER.

[This message edited by Wayflost at 4:56 PM, March 14th (Friday)]


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 366 | Registered: Dec 2013
mchercheur
♀ Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 9:13 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Jovie))) and (((Wayflost)))
I can't thank you enough for replying.

As you can see, we are 2 yrs 10 mos out, & I am still trying to understand ----the pieces of the puzzle still don't fit together for me. I want to heal, I want WH to heal, & I want our M to heal.

WH is trying,I believe that he has a good intention, but he was so clueless to start with, that progress has been slow as molasses.

(Part of the reason that he is clueless is: WH's narcissistic mother is an unremorseful WW & OW who broke up 2 families, she tried to drive a wedge between WH & I for our entire M in order to retain the primary loyalty of WH , MIL blamed me for WH's A, & WH was taught to sweep everything under the rug for his whole life.)

Our R has also been hindered by the fact that OW still works in the same building as WH.

When I have asked WH this question, his answer is: "I wasn't thinking about you at all."


Things are better, I still love him so much, but I am still in a lot of pain.

I would give anything if WH was participating on this site, & if he was able to get to the place that you two have gotten to.

Sending you and your families strength.



together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

Posts: 1337 | Registered: Dec 2012
Wayflost
♀ Member
Member # 41583
Default  Posted: 2:04 PM, March 17th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

mchercheur-

I'm glad we were able to help. Something I have realized about myself (one area of my brokenness) is that it is often easier to be open with people who are not close to me. My BH would likely be surprised by what I have said to you here. After our interactions yesterday, I can also tell you that he would not agree that I am anywhere ahead of your WH. Truth be told, I know that I am slow to get it as well.

Even if your WH isn't on here, he should read everything he can get his hands on. I am now going back to reread the books I read in the first months after discovery. Things were SO volatile that I know there is a lot I missed. Those pieces still hurt my BH.

As for the NPD mother. That really hits close to home. I am the daughter of an NPD mother. I see how all of my life-long coping skills for dealing with her have lead me to a very self destructive place. That is not to say that she is cruel, or even intentionally neglectful. My needs were only met so long as they fit with her neuroses. It's astounding to realize that celebrations of your accomplishments are celebrations of her success as a parent. I recently learned that she was also a WW and unremorseful, would forget, rugsweep. I don't know why my father stayed.

Your husband needs to look long and hard at his FOO issues. I grew up with the NPD mother, but also with an over-sexualized father and brother. The messages I heard were that I am only attractive, loved, worth anything, if I am meeting other people's needs and if I am desired by inappropriate partners. In the context of my marriage the inappropriate partners were the (several ) OM who didn't deserve a minute of my time.

It's a process. I hope you and your family are able to continue moving forward together.


Me: WW
Him: BH (totalheartbreak)
Both: 30s

Appalled by my actions, and the choice to set off several atomic bombs in my life.


Posts: 366 | Registered: Dec 2013
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, March 17th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Heartbroken0903 said this:

I don't try to separate "then" vs. "now." My reasoning is, that kind of compartmentalization is what led to having an affair for 5 1/2 months in the first place...living two lives...being with AP and then being able to come home to XH and act like nothing was happening. So I don't separate them now.

That's exactly what I was saying in IC today. I want to bring everything into the open. Iam almost eager to accept the consequences of my actions. That's because any rugsweeping or avoidence seems like compartmentalizing. I am trying hard to stop any compartmentalizing, regardless of the reason.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 394 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
Neithan
♂ Member
Member # 35924
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, March 17th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Positive triggers".

I saw this term used on the Wayward forum, to describe the warm fuzzy feelings, the euphoric recall that the WS get when events (songs, places, items) reminded them of the affair.

Fortunately (for my state of mind), it was in the context of discussing how to avoid positive triggers. But I am compelled to ask, is this really a thing? Once out of the 'fog', how common is it for an average WS? My WW talked and wrote early on about her treasured memories of the affair, and how she never wanted to forget those happy feelings, but now does not speak of her triggers, of any kind, much at all.

Do many waywards have to work to avoid triggers because of the feelings of lost bliss they bring?


Me: BH
Her: WW
D-Day: 2/19/2010
Married 1981
That which does not kill me makes me more irritable

Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Among the Gaurwaith
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:45 PM, March 17th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I saw this term used on the Wayward forum, to describe the warm fuzzy feelings, the euphoric recall that the WS get when events (songs, places, items) reminded them of the affair.

I was one such person who used the term "positive-association triggers" on that thread but I would certainly not describe them as "warm fuzzy feelings" or "euphoric recall." I'm sorry that my words were unclear.

But I am compelled to ask, is this really a thing? Once out of the 'fog', how common is it for an average WS?

I would say it's "really a thing" since we posted about it...as far as how common it is for the "average WS," I don't know, as I can't and don't speak for anyone but myself.

My WW talked and wrote early on about her treasured memories of the affair, and how she never wanted to forget those happy feelings, but now does not speak of her triggers, of any kind, much at all.

I'm sorry you had to hear/read this. I would venture to think that most of us on this site do not have treasured memories of our adultery. But again...I can't speak for others. I base that statement only on what I read here.

Do many waywards have to work to avoid triggers because of the feelings of lost bliss they bring?

Again...I don't think that's what was said in that thread, by any of us. I feel badly that that was your interpretation.

As for whether I personally have to work to avoid triggers: I used to. Immediately after D-day, they were everywhere and all the time. Not just triggers of AP...but triggers of my STBX/XH. Every minute of my life was literally a minefield of triggers. I couldn't work to avoid them because they were everywhere, but I tried.

Now...meh. Things are very different. I don't seek out media portrayals of adultery, for example (movies, TV, novels). So I guess that's working to avoid it, in a way. A lot of other stuff has lost its power in the sense that things I used to associate with my previous life, I no longer do.

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 8:47 PM, March 17th (Monday)]


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciling after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2080 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 6:08 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Neithen,

Regarding the "positive trigger" thing, I think it is for real. What can be so hard for a wayward to wrap his or her mind around is that the intensity of feelings are not necessarily a basis for their validity. I thought the good feelings were because I was in love. I thought I loved both AP and BS. The cognitive dissonance was so strong that I could actually tell a lie and then say "I love you" in the same sentence. All so I could get my needs easily met. I did all kinds of mental gymnastics convincing myself that what I was doing was somehow okay because it was real, it had to be real if the feelings were so strong.

Flawed logic.

Finally seeing the damage I inflicted on my BS helped me begin to untangle things. Those triggers aren't so positive now, because I associate those behaviors with the much bigger picture of what was going on for my BS during that time. Not just what I was feeling.

I hope this was not too incoherent.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 253 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
Credence
♂ Member
Member # 42682
Default  Posted: 6:22 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you so much to all of the WS's who take the time to answer our questions - I have learned so much from reading this thread.

My question relates to the thought process that occurs during the time between first kissing your AP and actually sleeping with your AP (assuming of course that you didn't do both on the same day). My WW is either unable or unwilling to help me understand what she was thinking so I would really appreciate an insight into your own experience if you're willing to share it.

1) Did you know before you had sex with your AP that you were 100% going to have sex with them if the opportunity arose?

2) Did you and your AP 'plan' your first sexual encounter and if so, did you get 'cold feet' at any point or were you too caught up in the excitement/anticipation?

3) Right before you had sex with the AP for the first time, when the two of you were alone together, did you feel at any point like you might/should back out of it?


If you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting what you always got

Posts: 182 | Registered: Mar 2014 | From: UK
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:29 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some new questions, came to mind after reading the Positive Triggers.

1. How long did it take for you to get rid of any items/gifts/clothes related to the affair.

2. Did you get rid of the things together with you BS or did you do it on your own?

3. After DDAY were you more devoted to your spouse and the marriage or did you try to take care of yourself first?

4. Did any of your BS do any rug sweeping?

5. My WW said she didn't tell the other men they were better lovers than me... Given the state of a WS would you think that is true or case by case based on your A's?


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1029 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:30 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ES --

I hope this was not too incoherent.

Nope. Exactly my experience. COuld not have said it better.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 394 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
somethingremorse
♂ Member
Member # 42047
Default  Posted: 9:39 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My question relates to the thought process that occurs during the time between first kissing your AP and actually sleeping with your AP

First, I think the step to kiss the AP was a lot bigger than it was going from kissing to sex. (I'm not sure if this came from my IC or Not Just Friends or both, but it's true for me). For me, it was like walking into the ocean. The first couple of steps are slow, to get used to it. After a while, it's easy to jump the rest of the way in. For me, when we kissed, and I could live with myself after a day, it "proved" that it was OK to go further. Then it got easier and easier to compartmentalize.

With AP, after we kissed the first time, we got together alone to discuss why we made a mistake, and why it shouldn't go farther. Then we'd say "but it's OK to kiss a little bit, since that's not pushing it any farther." That meeting happened 3 or 4 times, each more intense. By the time I decided that sex was OK, I was sure that I wasn't going to back out. That line was crossed long before.

Again, just my story.


Me: WH (42)
DDay 11/03/13
In MC and IC

Posts: 394 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Pennsylvania
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 10:48 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1) Did you know before you had sex with your AP that you were 100% going to have sex with them if the opportunity arose?

No. I spent time with the AP convincing myself that we were 'just friends'. He kissed me, I let him. Then feebly tried to establish a boundary saying 'you must never do that again'. He pursued me more ferociously, I enjoyed the attention. The next time I saw him my boundaries crumbled. I was so desperate for validation I put up no defence against his advances.

2) Did you and your AP 'plan' your first sexual encounter and if so, did you get 'cold feet' at any point or were you too caught up in the excitement/anticipation?

No planning, at least not on my part anyway.

3) Right before you had sex with the AP for the first time, when the two of you were alone together, did you feel at any point like you might/should back out of it?

Not really. Those thoughts came afterwards and when I was alone I cried, a lot.

[This message edited by BrokenButTrying at 10:49 AM, March 18th (Tuesday)]


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1209 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

1. How long did it take for you to get rid of any items/gifts/clothes related to the affair.

OM gave me two gifts, a necklace and a bracelet. Both were given to me after the PA ended but he was trying to convince me to leave my M. I was refusing and attempting (unsuccessfully) to end things completely. I threw both gifts away before I got home.

2. Did you get rid of the things together with you BS or did you do it on your own?

On my own, before I disclosed to BH.

3. After DDAY were you more devoted to your spouse and the marriage or did you try to take care of yourself first?

I'm trying to do both. I'm in IC, reading, using SI, working on myself constantly but I do tend to put my own stuff to one side and focus on BH and our M, we're only three months out our M and BH take priority currently.

4. Did any of your BS do any rug sweeping?

Rugsweeping is BH's coping mechanism, even before the A. I think he's trying to rugsweep at the moment but finding it impossible. I'm very keen not to let him gloss over this.

5. My WW said she didn't tell the other men they were better lovers than me... Given the state of a WS would you think that is true or case by case based on your A's?

I didn't talk to the AP about my BH in detail whole lot because the A was brief. But yes, I told the OM that I was unhappy and I found my sex life unsatisfying.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1209 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
byefornow
♀ Member
Member # 41992
Default  Posted: 12:48 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did ou ever compare your AP with your spouse either during the affair or after?
Not just sexually either, but personalities, characteristics, etc?
My WH says he never did, but I think he is lying. How could you not compare us? Even our responses to thing. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Thank you in advance! This thread helps me so much!


BW- me
WH - him
married over 25 years

Posts: 87 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: USA
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Byefornow

In absolute honesty, no.

My A wasn't about the AP. It was about external validation, because of that it could have been ANY man not just the OM.
The OM didn't win me over by being drop dead gorgeous or hilariously funny, he wasn't kind or generous or clever, he wasn't a smooth talker or any of those things. He was just interested in me, that's all I needed.

It wasn't about who was better looking, who had the bigger penis, was better in bed, who bought me more presents, who was kinder, funnier, more intelligent. It was about me, my void, my need to fill it.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1209 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 3:25 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Did ou ever compare your AP with your spouse either during the affair or after?
Not just sexually either, but personalities, characteristics, etc?
My WH says he never did, but I think he is lying. How could you not compare us? Even our responses to thing. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Thank you in advance! This thread helps me so much!

I did. During the A, not really after. Although I do think now about how better a person BH is than OM (like a bagillion times better). I only think of OM now in complete disgust.

Our M was in a very bad place at the time the A started. So there were certain traits in the OM that I wished BH possessed at the time. But I never thought about leaving H for OM or the possibility of ever really having an actual relationship with him. Like Broken said, it really could have been anyone.


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
EvolvingSoul
♀ Member
Member # 29972
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai,
1. How long did it take for you to get rid of any items/gifts/clothes related to the affair.

2. Did you get rid of the things together with you BS or did you do it on your own?

It took me a long time. I wish now that I had done it sooner but I was not a snap-out-of-the-fog-immediately type of WS. After D-day I was ambivalent about whether to stay or go. I did not want to give up my AP stuff if I decided to go after all. I ended up getting rid of it in degrees. Most of it I did on my own.

The first purge was a tequila fueled burn session of all the paper stuff. One piece at a time, into the wood stove. The later stuff I disposed of in a more perfunctory manner. I would discover something I missed and I would just throw it in the trash and redirect any nostalgic feelings that came up. The last thing was a painting that I deliberately destroyed in a ritual of intentional disconnection and cleansing from AP. I guess you could say I evolved on the matter.

3. After DDAY were you more devoted to your spouse and the marriage or did you try to take care of yourself first?
I was not really devoted to him at all. I was so freaked out by my world blowing apart that I went to my parents' home in another state for a week to try to figure out what to do. At that point I had no clue how bad BS's world had also been blown apart, and how much he had been suffering for the entire time during the affair.

4. Did any of your BS do any rug sweeping?
He did not. And he has not let me do so, either, and I really wanted to.

5. My WW said she didn't tell the other men they were better lovers than me... Given the state of a WS would you think that is true or case by case based on your A's?
I faked having good sex with AP. There were aspects of it that were degrading and it was like I wanted to be degraded in ways that I thought BS had way too much respect for me to ever do. Now that I think about it, I didn't want to think of my BS as the kind of person that would treat me that way.(Hmm there's an IC session in itself.)

BS has always cared about my pleasure and took pleasure in giving it to me. AP never had that capacity and so I faked pleasure to keep the good, if screwed up, feelings happening. I don't think I ever told AP he was better, just different. Part of my mental gymnastics to assure myself that I wasn't a bad person was to believe that somehow I was treating them both the same. Nothing could really be further from the truth, though.


Me: WS (52)
Him: Shards (47)
D-day: June 6, 2010
Last voluntary AP contact: June 23, 2010
NC Letter sent: 3/9/11

Digging our way through.


Posts: 253 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: Turning the corner.
womaninflux
♀ Member
Member # 39667
Default  Posted: 7:14 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WH has said that he is "conflict avoidant." Is it possible that this trait played into why the A went on so long? He is SA so he had an addiction to her (his therapist refers to AP as his drug). Did he avoid the conflict of ending the affair even though he knew at some points during the A that it should end?

I don't even know why this matters. I guess I want an explanation for how this possibly could have gone on so long.


BS - mid-40's
SAWH - mid 40's
Kids - 2 elementary school aged
Getting tons of therapy and trying to "work it out"

Posts: 855 | Registered: Jun 2013
Neithan
♂ Member
Member # 35924
Default  Posted: 8:17 PM, March 18th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the feedback on 'positive triggers'. I recognize that they're probably a minority of the triggers that a WS has, but it's illuminating to recognize they do exist.


Me: BH
Her: WW
D-Day: 2/19/2010
Married 1981
That which does not kill me makes me more irritable

Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Among the Gaurwaith
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