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User Topic: BS Questions for WS's - Part 8
bionicgal
♀ Member
Member # 39803
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have to laugh, something remorse about this:

It's kind of like a scale model of a real relationship. Everything is reduced down to size so that they all fit together. Even though the tires on the model car are really, really small, they still have the same proportion to the rest of the car.

Because in our situation, the AP is actually sort of unusually petite - barely scratching 5 feet, when I am closer to 6. So, even more apt than you realize. I appreciate your thoughts.

HUFI - I appreciated the drawing!! And the PM. Thanks for sharing your story with me.

Knightsbff - thanks to you as well. I do think my H was acting out some old,old insecurities - trying to "improve" upon them. Obviously, it didn't work out.


me - BS (40s)
DDay - June 2013, A was 2+ months, EA then PA
In MC & Reconciling
An affair is more like a mental break than a relationship.

I edit, therefore I am.


Posts: 1879 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: USA
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


I have a question, particularly for FWW's. I read, that women disconnect from the marriage/husband before that may the choice to have an affair.
1. Is that true to a certain extent?

For me, this is true. I had created a whole life separate from my life with BH.

2. What makes a WW re-connect?

In my case, BH was addicted to heroin (unbeknownst to me), so since DDay, he has been recovering, which has helped our intimacy tremendously.

3. Also I read, that WW's expect their husband to change. Did you expect him to change? Did he make any changes?

See above. I guess my situation is somewhat unique. I was not happy in the M, just too scared/weak to leave before going outside of it. With the changes we've both made, I am so much happier and think we have a great future ahead. I don't blame BH for my A, but in my case, and possibly in other cases, I think there are things that may push the WS away. NOT to be confused with WS that re-write the history of the M and blameshift.

Basically, I think if you have a remorseful WW, are in R and both committed to M, both parties should work to be the best partner they can be.

[This message edited by Jovie at 7:45 AM, March 14th (Friday)]


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 1:42 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

@Shayna71

To WS - How many of you did everything right from DDay on?

I'd like to think I did mostly everything right. I did TT about 2-3 weeks after DDay. But BH finding me out was a huge wake-up call. I was never in lurve with AP or had any feelings for him so it was easy to go NC. And I knew right away I wanted to R.

I think if you know his "why" it should help you feel more at ease whether this is true R or not. Obviously, you have to trust your gut. But sometimes I think the stories you read here are somewhat extreme, bc those are the people that need the most support. I think it is possible to have a relatively "smooth" R.


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
41andthankful
♀ Member
Member # 38650
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for the responses. Hufi thanks for the pm, very helpful.

Posts: 241 | Registered: Mar 2013
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 6:48 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jovie,
Thank you for your response to my questions. I am working on making more changes, but she hasn't really chose to reconnect with since we are living separated in two different houses.

She still has AP's necklace. She doesn't really communicate with me on an intimate level and I am having trouble trying to communicate with her. It is hard to do 180 and I am not sure it would work because she has my daughter with her.

It is now 4 months since DDAY. What are signs I should look for that FOG is wearing off or she is struggling to reconnect with me. I am working on my anger and being more helpful around the house.

From FWW perspective, is there anything you recommend BH do while wife is in the FOG?
What should I be communicating to my WW?

Thanks for all your help and taking the time to answer it.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai

Your situation sounds like a difficult one. Do you think your WW is remorseful at all? Can you see any action from her that indicates she is? Is she doing anything to heal herself, even if she isn't discussing it with you?

If not then I think it might be time to enforce some boundaries. You cannot control your WW's behaviour, you cannot force her to come out the fog. But you can control your behaviour and seeing you take control of your own life and carving out a little bit of normalcy and happiness for yourself might give her the kick up the arse she needs.

Concentrate on yourself, keep busy with hobbies and friends. Be a fantastic co-parent, take your daughter out for the day just the two of you. Do stuff you enjoy.

Make a list of the things that are necessary for you to continue into R and stay in the M. Things you expect from her; NC (physical and mental - she needs to destroy that necklace!) Transparency, she needs to be in IC, MC, reading, healing herself, helping you to heal, etc, you know the drill.
Write that all out, sit down with WW and talk her through it. Then it's up to her. She can either commit to it, to you, or you will file for D.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1230 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
Deeply Scared
♀ Administrator
Member # 2
Red  Posted: 7:47 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jovie...

This thread is specifically for BS's to ask questions of WS's. Please do not muddy the waters, you can ask your WS to WS questions in the WS Forum.

Thank you.


"Don't give up, the beginning is always the hardest." My Mom:)

My tolerance for stupid shit is getting less and less.


Posts: 197248 | Registered: May 2002
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:32 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai

I read, that women disconnect from the marriage/husband before that may the choice to have an affair.

1. Is that true to a certain extent?
2. What makes a WW re-connect?
3. Also I read, that WW's expect their husband to change. Did you expect him to change? Did he make any changes?

1. I have no idea about other WW, I can only speak for myself. I did not consider myself to have been disconnected from my XH before the affair. For me, it was in the blink of an eye that I decided to have an A. One text message from my ex (OM) after a special event, that one tiny text out of the blue, and I was back on the hook as if the previous 4 years since our breakup had never even happened. Literally, XH and I went from having what I considered to be a good relationship to me considering starting an affair/planning to eventually leave him in the span of 5 minutes.

2. Again speaking for myself, not for "a WW": it was being caught at adultery that pulled my head out of my ass. Had I not been caught, even if I had ended the A, I would not have been remorseful and would simply have been a "dry adulterer" pining for "what could have been."

3. Once XH and I got back together 2 years after the D, and especially in light of the extent to which he flushed some aspects of his life down the toilet while we apart, hell yes I expected him to change. He had plenty of bad behavior to own that had nothing to do with my affair, just as I had to own my affair having had nothing to do with him or the marriage. Has he changed? Somewhat. Time will tell.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2098 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:46 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

bionicgal

How can you describe your reality then vs now, if you have reconciled?

I don't try to separate "then" vs. "now." My reasoning is, that kind of compartmentalization is what led to having an affair for 5 1/2 months in the first place...living two lives...being with AP and then being able to come home to XH and act like nothing was happening. So I don't separate them now.

During the affair, my feelings were my reality and I don't shy away from it now. I thought the OP was very handsome; objectively I guess I still do (even though subjectively whether he's handsome or not means nothing to me, in the way that Ryan Gosling or that random guy at the coffee shop being handsome means nothing to me). I thought I loved him; I look back and---while I see that "love" as mushy feelings of affection and not Love as an action verb---I still can recognize that I did have those feelings.

What I have done, rather than to rewrite the narrative of the affair to suit the current status of my reconciliation, is to have examined the motivation for ever having entered into adultery in the first place and deemed that as wrong and needing fixing. The OP would have still been who he is whether or not I ever had the affair---the positives and the negatives of him, his life, etc. would not have changed. I was the one who chose to behave reprehensibly immorally, and that has nothing to do with how I felt or did not feel about the person I chose to behave that way with.

So that's a long-winded way of me saying that there is no disconnect of how I felt then vs. how I feel now, because none of those feelings truly have (or ever really had) anything to do with my choices. Oh, I thought they did, at the time. As with (I'm sure) many WSs, I based all of my decisions on my "feeeeeelings" for the majority of my entire life. I justified by saying I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't feel...A, B, or C.

These days I worry a lot less about my feelings, and that has been a very good thing. Whodathunkit?


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2098 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:50 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nekorb

WHY does WH continue to lie about the A? Why does he bother to say he isn't seeing her that often when he sees her every day and has sex with her pretty much every day?

I'd guess he's embarrassed about it and doesn't want to look like such a piece of shit to the world.

I'd also say there's a possibility that you're his "plan B" and doesn't want to completely slam the door in the hopes that you might take him back someday if his life with OW doesn't work out.

Unless he's mentally ill, I doubt he believes his own lies. Liars know they're lying.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2098 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:55 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

William

1:is it normal for a wayward to try to use euphemisms when referring to their affair(s) and is it a way of subconciously minimizing what was done?

example:
we touched

2: how did your BS take the use of these euphemisms? did it anger them because it seems like a minimization of what was done or were they grateful that it was vague?

example:
WTF does "we touched" mean?
or
"ahh ok, something physical happened but its vague"

3: did you (as a WS) stop using euphemisms if doing so bothered the BS and how hard was it to do so for you?

example:
instead of "we touched" being factual and stating "i gave him oral sex"

1. I don't like to use the word "normal" when describing others, but I would replace that with "common" and say yes, I assume so.

2. When XH and I began reconciling, he did not like that I referred to my adultery as "the affair." I had gotten so used to referring to it that way here on SI that I naturally used that with him. But he pointed out to me that "the affair" sounded like a huge minimization to him because it made it sound like it was just one transgression. He pointed out that every lie I told, every time I saw AP, every text message, every single aspect of "the affair" was its own separate betrayal. He did NOT like the term "the affair."

3. I stopped using that term with him, but I still use it here on SI just because it's easier.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2098 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
naivewife
♀ Member
Member # 38375
Default  Posted: 9:22 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I feel this real "dirtiness" around people that WH told about the A. Mainly, it's his parents and sister that really bother me, since they play the largest role in my life of the people who are aware of what happened. At the time he told them, life was spiraling out of control and I think he basically told them matter of factly "I cheated on naivewife."
All along I have felt, and maybe feel it even more a year past, that I wish WH would say something more to them. I wish he would say something about how it was the biggest mistake of his life, that he truly loves me and is grateful for being given another chance, that he is working hard on overcoming his issues (all things he does say to me). In a lot of ways, I guess I'm wishing he would restore my pride, somewhat. I feel very ashamed around them, which I know, is dumb. I feel strange about asking WH to do this though. And I don't even know if it's fair to ask him a year later. The topic makes him and his family extremely uncomfortable and I'm sure they'd be happy if he never mentioned it again. But I'm so sensitive now to what I think they are thinking.
All that to say, did you tell others (especially family) about the A? And if so, did you say anything to help restore your BS's dignity?


D-day #1 - 1/23/13
false R, then...
D-day #2 - 3/26/13
I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons. - Hippocratic Oath

Posts: 341 | Registered: Feb 2013
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, March 13th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

naivewife

All that to say, did you tell others (especially family) about the A?

Yes. XH told his family. I told mine. Our friends found out from both of us, separately, on D-day. Any coworkers that know, I either told or they found out from those I told (that grapevine, you know).

Depending on who I was telling, the level of detail varied. Coworkers/friendly acquaintances who knew us both got "I cheated on XH" or "I had an affair." My family got more of the specifics (who and for how long, plus my mom was helpful as I dug into "why").

What exactly or how much XH told, I have no idea.

And if so, did you say anything to help restore your BS's dignity?

I made it my utmost priority to keep my XH's dignity intact. It was the first thought on my mind after I knew R was off the table: how not to make XH look like the jackass in this situation. Several people I was tempted to tell, when they asked what happened, I actually didn't because of XH's dignity---I referred them to XH to answer that question, so he could answer as he saw fit. Those whom I did tell, I followed up each and every time (honestly can't think of any exceptions) with what a good man he is and that he did nothing to cause nor deserve this. Somewhat hollow words in light of my behavior, yes, but it was the truth and I wanted it out there.

That being said, I am sorry that you (and my XH, and any other BS) feels a loss of dignity that comes with others knowing of the WS's infidelity. Our shitty behavior should never be looked at as a reflection on you.


Me: WS, 30s
XH: BS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled after divorce

"Someday you'll look back on all these days
And all this pain is gonna be invisible." - Hunter Hayes, "Invisible"


Posts: 2098 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
CantBeUndone
♀ Member
Member # 42205
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Looks like has already been answered but I'll go ahead and put my 2 cents in.

1. Is that true to a certain extent?

For me, 100%. I had completely checked out of our marriage, family and life together. I was sure our marriage was over and that I wanted a divorce.

2. What makes a WW re-connect?

My situation is a little different because I wasn't caught. He suspected because I was acting totally out of character but he didn't want to believe I was really capable. I told him I wanted a divorce 11/12. At that point, he totally changed, started helping more around the house, became more attentive, etc. I was deep in the affair at that point and didn't believe his changes were for real, I'd heard that before. After a few months, he was still at it and then I got mad. I blamed him for the affair. If he had listened to me before when I said we needed counseling, I wouldn't have made those choices (I don't believe this now, but that's where my head was then). I was miserable and just kept thinking, why now? Why did you finally decide to care about our marriage now when I'd already ruined it? My AP was totally inappropriate. Much younger than me, immature, a total jerk, so it was never about leaving BH for him, I just wanted out of my marriage. I don't know how he stayed with me through my anger. I was horrible. The affair was totally over 4/13 but I was still in the fog and still wanted out of my marriage until September. I was miserable, drinking too much and telling him I wanted a divorce on a regular basis. One day over the summer, I was talking to a friend who said, "Look CBU, I love you and your BH. And the reality is that if you left him, I think you'd go out, date for a couple of years and realize what an amazing guy he is and really regret leaving." That planted a seed in my mind. And one day a couple of months later, I just woke up. Literally, it felt like a light bulb going off. And I finally saw all that my BH was. All he did. All that he'd put up with because he loved me and I felt devastated. And ashamed. And miserable. Because I knew that day that 1. I had to tell him and 2. that I loved him and after all I'd put him through, I didn't know if he could ever love me again. I still don't know. But telling him is the only good decision I've made over the last couple of years and no matter what happens now, I'm glad I did.

3. Also I read, that WW's expect their husband to change. Did you expect him to change? Did he make any changes?

I guess I didn't "expect" him to change, but did he change? Yes. Our marriage was hanging by a thread pre-A. If we both hadn't drastically changed, there would be nothing here to hold onto. The reality is that we both changed a lot, him first, but eventually me too. I'm grateful that I wasn't caught while I was still in the fog because I don't think we'd still be here. As hard as this is, I think knowing about the affair and living with a ww who's still in the fog is probably even worse.


Me: WW
Him: BH
30's, 4 kids
DD- Jan 2014

Posts: 55 | Registered: Jan 2014
Jovie
♀ Member
Member # 41956
Default  Posted: 7:53 AM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All that to say, did you tell others (especially family) about the A? And if so, did you say anything to help restore your BS's dignity?

We have told no one about the A. Because of embarrassment by both of us. I can totally understand your feelings though and I think its reasonable to expect your WH to clarify things with his family. Have you talked to him about how you feel?


Me - WW, 33
Him - BH, 37
Dday - 12/16/13

Posts: 211 | Registered: Jan 2014
LostSamurai
♂ Member
Member # 41347
Default  Posted: 8:12 AM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

BrokenButTrying
Sorry I missed this earlier.

Your situation sounds like a difficult one. Do you think your WW is remorseful at all?

Here is my problem. I know what remorse looks like when I do it, but I am honestly not sure what it is suppose to look like from somebody else. I know that is sad to say, but throughout my life I never really seen remorse demonstrated.

Can you see any action from her that indicates she is?

What type of Action should I look for? She hugs and kisses me here and there or say she loves me out of the blue, once in a blue moon. She left work one night when she couldn't get a hold of me and came to check on me.

Is she doing anything to heal herself, even if she isn't discussing it with you?

Not to my knowledge. She is supposed to go to IC, but something always comes up:bad weather, she's sick/tired.

If not then I think it might be time to enforce some boundaries. You cannot control your WW's behaviour, you cannot force her to come out the fog. But you can control your behaviour and seeing you take control of your own life and carving out a little bit of normalcy and happiness for yourself might give her the kick up the arse she needs.

I think I need to start doing this, because she is still living like she has all the time in the world. On New Years, she went out with friends, while I was home by myself. She went to the Company Xmas part without me last year and with her friends. We used to always do those things together.

Concentrate on yourself, keep busy with hobbies and friends.

I am going out with co-workers next wednesday. She asked me is a certain woman going to be there. I said yes. She asked me not to sit next to her, and I said sure. Most of the time, we spend time together as family.

Be a fantastic co-parent, take your daughter out for the day just the two of you
.
I do that from time to time. I took daughter out last Friday, to Build a bear workshop, then a place to look at puppies, and to her first movie theater experience to watch Frozen.

Do stuff you enjoy.

Kind of hard for me to do those things, because WW used them as a reason for her affair. Martial Arts, Gaming. I am trying to find new hobbies.

Make a list of the things that are necessary for you to continue into R and stay in the M. Things you expect from her; NC (physical and mental - she needs to destroy that necklace!) Transparency, she needs to be in IC, MC, reading, healing herself, helping you to heal, etc, you know the drill.
Write that all out, sit down with WW and talk her through it. Then it's up to her. She can either commit to it, to you, or you will file for D.

I will make a list, and that necklace has to go. I got all the pictures together that have to be destroyed as well. So disrespectful to wear it in the family photos.


I am now nothing by a mere Ronin.

Posts: 1036 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Maryland
Shayna71
♀ Member
Member # 42105
Default  Posted: 1:03 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want to sincerely thank the WS who answer questions in this forum. Even though I am a BS, I find myself most often in the WS forum. The hardest thing for me is to UNDERSTAND how my husband could do what he did, and what was going on in his mind to allow him to do things that are so out of character for him. I struggle mightily, and in truth I know I will never truly understand, not emotionally, but all the posts I read have given me insight and at least an intellectual understanding, and hope that I can at least reach a place of acceptance.

I have a tremendous fear of being lied to or cheated on again. I search these posts, and ask questions of WS to hopefully give myself enough knowledge base to be able to analyze and interpret my situation accurately. The answers to my questions from WS (and BS) and the revealing posts I've read have made it possible for me to put some of my fears to rest (some, not all) and try to focus on the reality of things, and not constantly play "what if" with myself.

Thank you WS for helping me.


Me: BW 46
Him: WH 42
3 month EA and PA w/a mutual friend
DDay 09/20/2013
Married over 20 years
DS 26, DS, 19 DD, 18
Currently in R

Posts: 122 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: Indiana
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LostSamurai

In terms of an A, remorse is true empathy for the BS. Knowing the impact your actions as a wayward have had on your BS. Hearing and feeling their pain, responding to it in a supportive manner. Acknowledging the need to have complete transparency, offering up passwords, being accountable regarding whereabouts and answering questions without defensiveness.
There are some great articles in The Healing Library about true remorse.


Going to IC and figuring out her 'why' is vital. How can she ensure she is a safe and trustworthy person in the future if she doesn't know what lead her down that path in the first place? I'll tell you right now, it wasn't your hobbies! Nothing you did, or didn't do, within the marriage made her step out. That choice is completely on her.

You do need to hear her if she's saying your hobbies left her feeling neglected but only because any pre-A marriage issues are owned 50/50. She cannot use your hobbies as a justification for the A.

Get working on that list, get working on yourself. Do the 180, I think it will be of huge benefit to you and your M.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1230 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
BrokenButTrying
♀ Member
Member # 42111
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

To see real remorse in action, PrayingForHope's posts on the wayward side are the epitome of the word. His remorse is tangible in all his threads. That's real work towards R.


Me - 27
Him - 27
Madhatters

My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13

Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.


Posts: 1230 | Registered: Jan 2014 | From: UK
mchercheur
♀ Member
Member # 37735
Default  Posted: 1:31 PM, March 14th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This question has probably been asked many times before, but I still don't understand it:

How could my WH throw everything away ( me, our kids, his reputation, potentially his job)
to have sex with OW, & now he says that he doesn't care at all about her?
If she was worth risking losing everything for, how does she mean nothing to him now?

When we decided to R, he started saying "I love you" to me, but what does that mean? How could he do this to me if he loved me?


together 25 yrs, married 24 yrs, 4 children;Rebuilding
D Day: 5/10/2011 PA
OW: WH's co-worker,divorced, no children, 20 yrs younger than I-----& she knew he was married, had met our kids, but that did not stop her from trying to destroy our family

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