I still just can't understand how my WH could have told his AF that he never stopped loving her, that she was his soul mate and that he didn't love me if those things are not true. How can he so in love with me now and have said those things just a few months ago???
He says that because he NEVER allowed himself to be vulnerable to emotions, and had such a wall up that he was never able to truly feel connected to anyone. This left him feeling empty and lonely. He convinced himself that I did not love him and that we were over even before his AF contacted him to rekindle past relationship. I do remember when I began to feel him pull away which was 3 months or so prior to this initial con act, and of course accelerated hard once she was in the picture.
He explains that the empty and lonely feelings left him searching to feel better, and even while he was in the affair he did not feel better, he felt worse, but was searching for something that would make him feel better, so he "tried it on." He told her these things to see how they felt and he says ultimately, while he feels sorry that these things hurt me so badly, he is ultimately glad that he said them because they felt wrong and accelerated his exit from the affair. He was ending this 2 month affair within the week.
What I would like to know is, do you think that this is possible? Could he go from that to this open man now who feels extremely connected to me and in love with me??? This part of the affair is the MOST confusing part for me and I struggle to make sense of it, but can't seem to let it go these days.
she doesn't allow me to express what hurt she caused me
She doesn't allow you? Like, she runs screaming from the room? Covers her ears and says "la la la" or what? Or, she starts crying and you feel bad, so you clam up?
I just wrote today in a thread I started in Wayward, that being able to safely discuss one's issues and concerns in a M is absolutely crucial to a harmonious M. You need to get that hurt out, or one day you could go supernova from keeping it all inside.
Gently, if she's not receptive to your feelings, I wouldn't classify her as "very remorseful." You're giving her a lot of credit, where it may not be due.
Why can't he tell the truth?
He can, he just chooses not to. Sometimes in the early days after DDay we lie in a misguided attempt to protect our BS from the devastation of the full truth. I never played the "I don't know" card, but I swore to BH I was telling the truth about an aspect of my A (the hotel in which I met AP), but I lied repeatedly. Until I didn't.
Personally I think MC is a waste of your time if your WH is still lying to you. He should be leading R, not being dragged along by you.
Will he ever?
That's up to him, and you can't change or control him. My (rhetorical) question for you is...how long are you willing to wait for him to truly commit to R, and start telling the truth?
[This message edited by Tred at 8:01 PM, March 1st (Saturday)]
It was amazing. I heard and saw love grow in a crazy way between H and I as I worked hard to release some really hard shit from his A. As the days and weeks went on, I believed more and more in the benefits of my efforts. We talked about it too, worked on ways to support each other without building a prison of shame for H. I feel like he's crazy about me now. Really, I don't know if I've ever felt so loved.
So, my question is, and I truly don't want to offend any of the wonderful fWSs who are generous enough and brave enough to take the time to answer the BSs on this thread, but was he just stupid? Do I want to stay with someone so blind and ignorant to make such a shattering decision?
I have tried to solve this by understanding that one doesn't know what they would do until they are there (I certainly never would have imagined that I would react the way I have to infidelity - wanting to R etc.). But weeks before my H began his A, I had a young man express his attraction to me and take my hand at a part (to my complete surprise). I was shocked, but stood up and told him that while I was flattered, I had to go indoors now. He asked why and clung to my hand, and I said "because that's what I hope H would do." I'm not making this stuff up. I went home that night and told H about it, rather lightly, and we laughed together.
When I reminded him about this story, he said "but what if you did find him attractive and then saw him all the time at work?" While I can try to step back away from the pain of that statement, I can see what he means. But it kills me that he still tried to make excuses. This is all in the couple of months post dday, it's just one of those things he said that I can't let go. I can work on letting it go, but is my H simply less moral and intelligent than I thought he was?
For me, what your WH said resonates. Each A I had things progressed the same way. The difference is now, the first thing may happen (finding someone physically attractive, maybe a flirty comment from the opposite sex), but the boundaries and walls will be up, I shut it down internally and externally if necessary, and that's it.
I always thought I was a moral and intelligent person. Turns out I had a lot of work to do in those areas! Now I know where I let myself fail and act despicably. I continue to work on those areas and am aware of my internal signals that I need to continue to look at certain things.
It sounds like your WH is all in. He's doing the work and you are rebuilding together. That's wonderful! In addition to that comment, does it seem like he 'gets it'? What is he doing that lets you know his mindset is different NOW, as opposed to how it was when he started his A?
"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."
If you ever broke NC after your first DDAY, why did you do it?
I haven't broken NC as such. OM has broken NC twice, once by text and the other by email. I have responded with BH by my side. We discussed what should be said, typed it out and sent it. Each time they were just new versions of 'leave us the flapjack alone'. So I'm not sure if that counts?
But I didn't want to leave your question unanswered. I guess NC is broken because of some kind of loyalty to the AP. From what I've read it is usually to check that the AP is ok.
Mental NC, checking their Facebook, twitter account is a really hard habit to break. WS are used to having control over the situation (they had to in order to prevent the BS finding out) and relinquishing that control can be scary. After Dday the AP is a liability with the potential to cause more damage, checking Facebook/Twitter accounts regularly can provide a feeling of 'situation management'.
My Ddays - 01/10 & 12/04/14
His Dday - 23/12/13
Chin up. Unwavering. Fight. I can do this.
Question for a WS . My WW is very ashamed for what she did . She feels really guilty . Because of this she doesn't want to talk about the A and she doesn't allow me to express what hurt she caused me . With that being said she is very remorseful and she is doing the work to get herself better but talking about the A only brings her to tears.
Facing the reality of what you've done is enormously difficult. I went through a stage of being completely consumed by self loathing. I despised myself, I was disgusted with myself, hated every breath I took and at my lowest points wanted to scratch the skin from my own body because I was so repulsed by my own being. I couldn't really function for a little while, getting out of bed was only just manageable. In the end, I hit myself with a 2x4, focused on my BH and my children and adopted the thinking that I couldn't change what I'd done but I could change what I was going to do about it.
If your WW is doing the work that's great, if it's helping you feel safe. But talking about the A is important. Have you got all the details you need?
In order to make real, permanent changes to herself and to your lives together she needs to hold the mirror up and look at the 'monster' within.
OM came a long and sensed weakness.
He pursued me.
It made me feel better.
I exchanged luuurve and sex to get more of what made me feel better.
It's like a drug, you'll do whatever you can to get another hit. Feelings and sex are what you use to pay the dealer. Depending on the length of the A, these feelings can seem very real because the behaviour becomes habit in itself and becomes a coping mechanism.
Once Dday comes, some WS stay in the fog where everything is geared towards making them feel better. For others, it's a slap in the face. Reality hits like a ton of bricks and your true feelings come out of hiding.
I suspect the huge shift in your WH's behaviour is due to the fact he is aware he cannot carry on being a walled up, closed off person. The reality of his actions have awakened his emotions and he knows if he has a shot at R he needs to communicate with you.
Broken69 - He just snapped. Said he couldn't live like this always feeling like he had to look over his shoulder worrying I knew something else or thought something else... Told his therapist he cant live with himself for what he did and the guilt is killing him. He left 6 weeks ago ... Says he needed space to fix him and his volatile anger b4 he could fix us. He hates who is and has become. Now he says he wants a divorce because I wouldn't give him space. My texting, calling, pleading And begging has pushed him away ... Is this at all possible or was it an excuse for his freedom.
I'm sorry to say but his actions could be taken either way and ultimately, only his actions and time will prove which is real.
Its not uncommon for a WS to push their BS's away, to rewrite the marriage history, to demonize their own actions and to use the old "you don't deserve my crap" in order to justify their exit. It lets them shift some of the guilt off their shoulders and it lets them justify their actions. Its a sorta cowardly way out of the marriage but then again, if we had really been honorable men to start off with, we would never have indulged in the affair in the first place.
On the other hand, some of your husbands actions are familiar to me as I was also guilty of them in my post A history. And while I don't want to give you false hope, I want you to understand that if our brains were not screwed on tight when we started the affair, the reality is that our brains are even more screwed up post A. There is a flood of emotions that overtake the WS in the aftermath of the affair. Regret, remorse, self-anger, guilt and shame flood you. Its only a monster in the mirror that looks back at you. You have no self-respect anymore. Your questioning everything. Wondering how the fuck you got here? What lies did you tell yourself? What is real and what is just fantasy? Its overwhelming at times. There can be a desperate need to find some calmness in the midst of this shit storm.
I remember a stage when it seemed quite apparent, quite self-evident in fact that I just had to leave my wife and re-examine the relationship with the AP again. As I struggled with the how and why, it just seemed to me that my commitment to R was a bias for clear thinking. I thought that if I was a free man in a manner of speaking from my self-imposed feeling of duty and honor and commitment to R, that my subsequent decisions would be smarter decisions. And so, I told LF that I needed a time by myself, where I could find myself. Well, I now understand that this was classic foggy WS thinking but I do recall, at the time, thinking that it was the right choice, a good choice. Silly me, of course. All it did was confuse me and anger my wife.
You know how confusing this has been to you. You know how your own head is spinning around and around as you try to make sense of it all. Now, imagine how your H is feeling. In truth, he probably is just as confused as you are and on top of this, he has to deal with guilt and shame. And from my own experiences, trust me, that's a snake pit of crap that is hard to cope with. He has to work this out on his own right now and come to terms with himself and his actions. Its not a easy journey for some of us. But while he does that, you can take steps for your own self-healing too.
My suggestion is for you to practice the 180. Set boundaries and expectations. Be clear and unequivocal. Be upfront in what you need and want and be assertive. Don't bombard him with conflicting messages but don't draw away either. You have to communicate to him that while you want to R, he needs to take action and make decisions too. He can't simply pull the old turtle defense and try to avoid his responsibilities. Insist that he go to IC. Insist that he either starts working on R or that you will take steps to protect yourself.
Sometimes, a WS needs a good push in the right direction and barring that, a quick swift kick to the pants. By giving him some direction and a timeline for action, his future decisions and choices will quickly prove to you what his true motives are.
Unknown Poster - The mind of a WS is a very sordid, confused place during the preamble, main body, and post mortem of an A. Don't give us too much credit for rational thought.
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 7:51 AM, March 4th (Tuesday)]
How does someone make their WH feel remorse? Wh and i havent been having sex much (1-2 times a month). Last night we were fooling around. I was straddling him and that in itself triggered me, because he told me that OW would do that when she was first initiating things. I pushed the trigger away. But then WH kept closing his eyes (very atypical of him) and it bothered me, so I kept telling him to open his eyes and look at me. I guess i said it too much, that he got mad at me for saying that and said I was acting weird. I got off him, because he seemed like he didnt want me to be there. He got mad that I got off his lap.
So we got in this big discussion. He said that me telling him to look at me was NOT sexy, and that he knows why I was saying it, and he made me tell him why. Well I told him that I was afraid he was closing his eyes so he could imagine that it was OW doing that. He got mad that I am still thinking those things, and that I always have to make it so there is that 3rd person when we have sex, and after sex when we do have it - I analyze it and get emotional, so that in turn makes him not want to have sex.
He says that he wants things to be normal again, and he doesnt want me feeling that way. And during fooling around, he was lifting my shirt up, and I am VERY self conscious about my belly, and think that if he sees it then he will decide Im not sexy and go off me. My self image is down to nothing. So he said that I am his wife and that he should be able to see me naked. But I also remember him telling me that OW's body was good (during his fog). So thats on my mind.
We went to bed, and he tried to be more sensitive, but I kept thinking about him saying that me saying to look at him was NOT sexy, and then about the OW, and I just felt like crap. He tried to say nice things to me in bed, but I was already so sad and hurt. And the pain I feel goes through my entire body and I end up shaking involuntarily.
I feel like my Wh still doesnt realize what he has done, and how hurt I am. Ive tried 180, and all that happens is that he ends up thinking Im up to something since I got a new job, and Im doing something bad, and keeps asking me if there is someone else. Or telling me that I dont seem like I love him. I just dont know if he understand what he did.
I am reading Not Just Friends, and its triggering me and so painful to read.
I told him about this bracelet ($42) that i thought was nice, and that it was supposed to stand for commitement. And he just went off about I suddenly want new jewelry and things now that I started my new job.
THEN i told him that I wanted him to get a wedding ring (his is too big, and right after he confessed he got me a new one to symbolize his devotion to me and a new beginning and TOLD me that we would get him one. So when I brought up the new ring for him, he said that we didnt have the money. I told him its almost like he doesnt want to wear a ring to show everyone that he is married, but he wants me to wear mine every day and makes SURE that I wear it.
Please help. Any advice from a wayward is helpful since I just dont understand that other side.
R is tough, no secret there right? As a WS, I try to do all of the things in my power to help my BH heal. I am not perfect though, and I will mess up along the way... say the wrong thing, miss an opportunity to comfort, etc. That is difficult for me and for other WSs I suspect. It seems as if we are expected to do all the right things 100% of the time and know what that is all the time. That's a pretty high standard for anyone to live up to.
Hang in there and continue to be open with him about what you're feeling and why. I've also been reading Not "Just Friends" and there are some good pointers on positioning how you express what you're feeling and continuing to keep the dialogue open.
and that I always have to make it so there is that 3rd person when we have sex
Apparently he doesn't realize that HE is the one who made it so that there is that third person when you have sex.
So he said that I am his wife and that he should be able to see me naked.
I don't like statements like this. You are not his property and if you don't feel like showing any part of your body at a particular time, he shouldn't feel entitled to demand it of you. There are a million different ways he could have asked to see your body, more sensitive ways, than the one he chose. And again, he doesn't seem to realize the extent to which HE has contributed to your self-image issues.
That is the crux of it with him: it seems that in his mind, it should be all about him and what he wants, how he feels, all the things you do "wrong" (in his mind) that makes him feel bad...without seemingly any consideration for what he has done to you and how it makes YOU feel.
You can't make him feel remorse...and he is NOT remorseful based on what you have posted many times about these types of interactions between the two of you. He may regret having the affair; I'm not saying he doesn't. But as we all say here at SI, regret does not equal remorse. Remorse would entail looking away from himself and his selfish feelings and looking toward you---understanding that he caused your pain, having compassion for your triggers, and doing whatever is required of him to repair the damage he caused...and doing it willingly and proactively rather than begrudgingly and to shut you up (which is what I'm seeing).
You can't make him feel remorse. True remorse only comes from within, at the personal horror of what we as waywards have done to our spouses and ourselves. Your WH seems to just want it all to go away and refuses to accept that that's not going to happen.
Married 2.5 years
Reconciled and remarried.
[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 11:15 AM, March 4th (Tuesday)]
Today on our break, he called me and said that he was really excited to see me at lunch and missed me and said he was thinking about us and said that he wants to try harder and he knows that he can be better for me.
Im not sure what that means, but I think it might be because we had that discussion and I yet again cried myself to sleep. Almost like a pacifier.
I wish so badly that he could be more like the other remorseful WS and read, go to MC, or post on here.
I just dont understand how he CANT see this was his doing, and his fault that things arent "normal" like he wants.
I guess my question is did any of you try to rewin or convince your BS into sticking it out?
My XH decided he wanted to divorce the day of D-day. (It was the second D-day with the same OM; we rugswept the previous EA in 2007.) Yes, I wanted him to want to reconcile, and if not, then I wished he would wait awhile before making a final decision.
But really, I knew his mind was made up---I had known even before D-day that getting caught would almost certainly mean divorce---so I just gave him space and let him do what he needed to do.
When we got back together 2 years later, he did tell me he regretted being so hasty. However, if you're done you're done---that's your business and your decision.