[This message edited by SlowUptake at 4:58 AM, February 3rd (Monday)]
There are two kinds of people in the world.
Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data.
Part of me really wants him to be able to step up and figure everything out,
You can't control him.
You can't fix him.
It's not about you.
He made his decision.
I'm sorry he does not realize the tremendous gift you would offer him if only he would work on himself.
was he truly in love with AP?
Affairs are about attention. The currency to exchange for it are sex and love.
This is probably the most real and authentic thing I have seen regarding these matters.
I am wondering if other WS have been on the fence this long or could it possibly be my WS does not want to hurt me more by saying lets D?
I know everyone is different and I welcome all to respond.... thank you!
"A tree falls the way it leans.....be careful which way you lean"
My question to waywards is can any of you relate to feeling that hatred to your AP's spouse/SO?
I wouldn't say hatred, but in my case I definitely had some negative opinions of and feelings toward my AP's partner. AP had spun a bunch of lies and I'm sure I was sickly justifying what I was doing by assigning negative character traits. It felt like a gut punch when I realized how amazing a person AP's partner really was.
I wouldn't give too much weight to what those two think of you. Sounds like they're still living in Fantasyland.
Do you not do certain things sexually with your BS because you felt demoralized by your AP?
Do you do certain things sexually with your BS because you enjoyed it with your AP and your BS enjoys it?
Did you start off with dating again with your BS in the beginning of R?
Quick (at least I thought it would be when I started typing) background to the situation, TWO EAs (at least confirmed) with coworkers through texts, emails (home and work) and work phone). This happened two years ago, currently seperated and going through MC together to work to see if marriage can be saved and both of us are going through IC.
WS is transparent with passwords. Asked one day to check phone because there were a large number of texts between WW and coworker (different than first two). This coworker was in a relation ship with WW BFF. Went to check the texts to verify that they are helping WW's Coworker and WW's BFF work through issues. All texts are deleted. This kills trust.
In an effort to try and verify WW's story I look around for a program to try and recover info off the phone. I find the program and am using it on her old phone which she doesn't use now, but was using during the time she was in her EAs.
So my question to remorseful WS is if you were in this situation, transparency, working to rebuild trust, claiming that the whole story is known to the BS and there isn't any more EA or OM to be discovered, what would be your reaction to your BS going through an old phone in an effort to verify your story. I understand that there may be things I don't want to see there, but I've been dealing with some already through intercepted emails. My main goal is to verify that what she has said is true and honest.
what would be your reaction to your BS going through an old phone in an effort to verify your story
"Oh, you want to go though my old phone? Sure thing honey, here it is. Let me know if you want to discuss anything on there, I'm pretty sure I've told you everything, but it's possible you may find something I had forgotten".
But that's me. YMMV.
[This message edited by SlowUptake at 1:52 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
omgnome - what would be your reaction to your BS going through an old phone in an effort to verify your story?
Ditto to what SlowUptake said because anything less than 100% transparency is worthless.
I understand that sometimes work issues have a confidentiality requirement that makes it awkward but ... I think that after the lies and dishonesty that existed during the affair, there has to be 100% transparency and if that means trust by verification, then so be it.
I'm not aware of your wife's "why" but quite often, the WS mindset happens after a history of secrets being kept from the spouse and at times, from themselves in a manner of speaking. It can be hard to break this cycle of deceit at times because for some, its part of their coping skills (albeit a bad one) and part of their nature and habit.
It doesn't have to be overt lies, sometimes its less obvious. Being afraid to talk about feelings is a more assiduous form of keeping secrets. More a lie of omission rather than one of commission but at a certain level, not being open and honest either. Developing the skill to compartmentalize, keeping things hidden and not shining the light of day on bad behaviors all lead to a culture of secrecy. Its that mindset that he needs to break on his own.
You can't rely on verification for the rest of your life if you want to rebuild trust. She can't depend on your policing to break her bad habits either. She needs to find out why she hides things. What is it that drives this need for secrets? Embarrassment, fear? I think that until she digs into this deeper, you need to continue verification.
During their affairs, honest people learn to lie and liars learn to sound honest.
My situation is a bit different insofar as I had a EA and never met up with my AP. Other than some sexual innuendo, the only thing sexual was a erotic letter I wrote to her fantasizing what it might be like when we met. The sexual acts described in that letter were a reflection of the lovemaking that my wife and I have always enjoyed over the years and that ultimately created a problem when LF found and read that email.
What used to be acts of love and pleasure are now tainted by the fact that I wrote about them to the AP and it has seriously affected our sex lives. In the early days, there was a fair amount of HB (hysterical bonding) but in the past few years, LF struggles to regain the emotional connection that separates sex from lovemaking. I know that at one level, the physical act is the same but at another level, everyone knows the difference.
The funny thing is that I learnt things about the AP during the affair that strongly suggest that if we did meet, the sex was not going to be as good as I imagined it to be. Turned out that she disliked oral sex (giving and receiving) and that the standard missionary position was the norm. That might have lead of difficulties as LF and I had always enjoyed a healthy sex lifestyle and I don't know what I would have done if I would have been restricted to page one of the Karma Sutra, so to speak.
Not sure if this helps at all ... perhaps others who have more similar stores will be along to give other perspectives.
CantLoseHope - I am wondering if other WS have been on the fence this long or could it possibly be my WS does not want to hurt me more by saying lets D?
Honey, it could be possible, after all, everything is possible but you need to ask yourself, what is the probability of this happening? What are the chances that he will come back to you and ask for R and make it work?
Bluntly said, I am sorry to tell you but I think the odds are very low, impossibly low in fact.
You say he talks about his regrets with sorrow but his actions with the other OW tell a different story. Bluntly put, he's cake eating and your are enabling this. Reading your posts, I have seen that you have gotten great advice in your posts but I sense that you are hesitant to put them into action.
You need to put the 180 into action so you control what is happening to you. Right now, you are reacting to him and that needs to change. You need to become strong and independent. Sure its scary but the alternative is to be his doormat.
My advice is for you to put the 180 into full blown effect and force him into a decision. You should file for D and see if he fights for you. I know that you wish, hope, dream that he will come back but so far, his actions are speaking louder than his words. I don't see a remorseful and repentant WS here. I don't see the actions that back up his words.
I know you are a strong woman and that you love him, after all that's evident in how many chances your are offering him but in truth, if I had acted like your H, my wife would have left me long time ago. Like she said, I will give you a second chance, not chances.
Go back and read some of the great advice you got from your sister BS's ... think about it again.
Donít listen to your head, itís easily confused, donít listen to your heart, its fickle, listen to your soul, God doesnít steer you wrong - HUFI
[This message edited by HUFI-PUFI at 3:12 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
so lots of bad activity over a long period of time with lots of guys. most of it stuff that ... in all honesty ... id never have found out about on my own.
at time she admitted to ONS/sexting she was in an amnesty i granted to get truth. she agreed to waive all amnesty and give a full and complete confession to everything.
we are trying R to save M.
she has given email, phone access + pw. agreed to full honesty,transparency. agreed to commit to marriage and R. agreed to boundaries. agreed NC with anyone involved, even indirectly (friends who knew or friends of friends, etc). has stopped going out at night. shown remorse. agreement for IC/MC for both of us. basically the essentials.
agreed to deal breakers - inappropriate behavior. less than full disclosure or lying via omission. breaking boundaries or NC. less than total honesty or transparency.
but then i am looking in her email.
i find a guy's name i dont know but no emails. i text her asking who he is. she says a friend. i ask if there is anything else. she says at one point they made a joke about meeting in another city and having sex but it was a bad joke, nothing more to it. she doesnt know why she didnt tell me. she couldnt remember it.
i check into the guy (an ex bf) that she had "forgotten" to tell me about sending 2 risque photos too. i see where she had asked if he still had the pics he had taken of her and them from when they were together, if he ever looked at them, and if he could send them to her. i text her asking what pics - nude ones. i ask why she didnt include this in our discussion. she doesnt know. she couldnt remember it.
i find where she is talking to another ex bf. she tells him how terrible her marriage was, how she thinks back to her days with him fondly, how she wonders if he does too, and wants to know if she could meet him in franfurt germany. he says .. no, but what about cologne. then he talks about his family and wife, kids, etc. she cools the talk down, it becomes more "friends" type stuff. i ask why she didnt tell me this. she doesnt know. she couldnt remember it.
she says so many things she did, such a bad time of her life, much of it not drunk but buzzed, depression, etc - she shut them out of her mind and/or forgot.
i think its possible to sit down, make a list of everyone you know, think about what you did or said with each, decide was it appropriate stuff or not, and write. not fun to get a full list but doable.
she seems to believe that it might never be complete.
so after the long story here is the ???
----> is it "normal" to forget some of the more minor things when there are so many more major ones? is idk or i cant remember normal from a ws and if so ... is it genuine or just crap so they can hide behind it?
is it that shes blocked so much of this away or is it that she is afraid that "more" will just be too much and ill walk away? according to our agreement this is a deal breaker ... im considering D right now more than i was a month ago. please help
[This message edited by william at 12:52 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]
I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation.
I believe that some WS block out memories or minimise events in their mind because remembering reminds them of what they've done, the sort of person they were at the time and that is just too painful or too uncomfortable for them to deal with.
No, 'I don't know' or 'I can't remember' are not by any means an acceptable answer. An acceptable answer would be 'I'm sorry, I cannot answer that right now. Would you allow me some time to dig deep and work with my IC to uncover the answer?'
Then they need to put in a lot of work to discover why they can't remember. Writing a time line can be a helpful tool.
That said, sometimes it's just a load of boohockey and they're saying they can't remember because they think there is no way for you to find out the truth so there's no point disclosing it. In that situation, R is impossible.
WH and OW still work together. We didn't tell her BF because we were worried what she might do. I did text her (nothing nasty, basically what I thought of their actions) and she threatened me.
Needless to say I carry a LOT of anger toward OW. Because they still work together I am finding it very hard to let that go. Unfortunately I think my bringing her up is part of what is keeping my WH from getting to the indifference that is so important. His anger for her is sometimes the only real emotion he feels.
My questions is, do you think I should stop bringing her up (honestly I know at least part of my anger for OW is a deflection of my anger at WH but I'm not ready to let it go yet) or is it up to him to be able to separate that out?
[This message edited by AML04 at 11:58 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]
Me: fBH 46
Her: exWW 42
DDay: Nov 1, 2012
william - Is it "normal" to forget some of the more minor things when there are so many more major ones? Is IDK or I can't remember normal from a WS and if so ... is it genuine or just crap so they can hide behind it?
BrokenButTrying sorta nailed it down fairly well in his reply.
If you really want to dive into the whole issue of memory (which for me to determine my "why" was important)then may I suggest you check out the website at http://www.human-memory.net/index.html
And then, check out this website, cause as BrokenButTrying pointed out, sometimes forgetting isn't memory loss but rather, a continuation of deceit and lies. http://www.truthaboutdeception.com