"If we both work..."
"He'll get back his feeling..."
"Doesn't have full blown love..."
My thoughts? That he is not exhibiting remorse. That he is foggy. That he is blame shifting. And that he has no fucking right to say or do anything unless it involves pulling his head out of his ass and looking in the mirror.
Send him here to the Wayward Side. We'd love to say hello.
Please share with other BS's on the BS threads and get the support and guidance for your current marital state.
My H had an EA which lasted approx 12mths. He claims to this day (it ended in Dec 2012) that he never wanted to meet her, that it wasn't 'sexual' for him, he didn't fancy her and felt they were just mates. He later admitted to having cybersex with her in total about 3 or 4 times (which probably meant a lot more), but felt it was more like a conversation that got out of hand! He had cybersex with a lot of women online (which he has told me about, and some were very sexual explicit and quite shocking what they talked about) but with 'her' he wasn't interested, it was more like a dirty conversation, more of a dare to see how far the other one would go etc!
They met online in a chat room and used to talk, until her pc broke down and they had NC for about 3 weeks, before she stopped using the pc, she gave him her mobile number and home number.
He wouldn't let her have his mobile number as it is a work phone, and also because I would pick it up at times to use it, so in May of 2012, he went out and bought a cheap pay as you go mobile so he could keep in touch with her. (He hid this from me obviously)
He threw the phone and sim card back in Dec 2012 after I found out about his online cyber stuff with other women, and he stopped all contact with 'her' - he didn't even tell her he was stopping all contact, just 'woke up' one day and thought wtf am I doing, and got rid of phone ... he then deleted his Hotmail account, and stopped using pc so no contact with any other women either.
I didn't find out about 'her' until Oct 2013, 11 mths after I found out about the online cybersex with other women. He told me that he never EVER talked about me, she knew he was married but didn't even know my name. She didn't know we had kids and were at the time going thru adoption to adopt another 2 children. He kept things about our life together away from her. They would talk about normal daily things, work, weather, her life ... she tended to go to him with her problems and he would try and advise as best he could. As mates do!
I'm a woman, I know she didn't think of him as a mate! She did ask him one day if they lived closer together hypothetically, would he meet her for coffee. He said no, because I'm married ... she replied, its only coffee ... he then said, I have no intention on meeting with anyone. I'm not sure if I believe him or not, I would like to think that's what he did say, but I will never know!! But I do believe my husband when he says he didn't meet with her (she lives a plane ride away across the water from us)
So, I asked my H a few days ago, that if he missed her when she stopped using the pc enough to go and buy a mobile phone, did he miss her when he got rid of the phone, he says No ... that he 'woke up' and realised that he didn't want that life, that he knew if I found out I would be devastated (understatement!!!) so he got rid of it!
From what I have read on WS threads, they (you) do miss your AP or your EAP .... does he miss her?
Also, he says he NEVER thinks about what happened ... ever, not when driving to work, or when he is on his own. Says he wants to forget and only thinks about it when I question him or bring something up about it.
I think about it every day ... is it right that he doesn't think about it at all!!!!
Please be honest with me ... do you WS think about what you did? Do you wonder what would have happened if things had turned out differently etc? I do, all the time ... I just cant believe that he doesn't!
Now to where this started. The February after dday I was in the hospital for a colonoscopy (fun fun) and was in pre-op. WW was in there with me and was occasionally texting. After reading one text she rolled her eyes and said "He's such a dumbass." I asked who she was talking about and she said it was the security guard at work. She read the text and I don't remember it verbatim, but it was something about she and I having hospital sex or something along those lines. That got my hackles up and I asked something about him and she told me I had nothing to worry about with him because he's not her type, he has a moustache, is a smoker blah, blah, blah (when we first met I had a moustache and so did AP#2. Also, her first H smoked so I don't really see those as deal killers for her). Since dday of course I've been on high alert and that really made me focus on watching what happens with him as much as I could. What I know about them is they have always (as long as I've known her) been on friendly terms. I really wonder just how friendly since he feels comfortable enough to send her a sexually oriented text and she thinks nothing of it. Can't say I have any females friends I feel I could send that kind of text to, even in jest.
I really have no evidence other than circumstantial, but this is what there is:
Texts. In looking back at phone records when I was still finding out about her A's there were maybe 12 texts a month with this guy. I know that they text each other occasionally regarding work. i.e. from him things like "I signed for a package for you and left it on your breakroom table". From her: "I need a temp parking pass for a friend of mine". Generic stuff like that. In Sept. 2012 the number of texts between them shot up to like 120, and during that time her PA was going through a rough patch. Typically there's maybe 2-5 between them in a day high end when there are any. There are other times though that the texts have been deleted. Ok, I know sometimes she has to purge texts because the memory gets full, but there have been times the texts between them have been deleted, but two week old texts are there. Last Wed. she had a text from him asking if he could meet her in her breakroom, that he needed to talk. She said "sure". Friday, I was checking the phone records and there were about 30 texts between them. I was leaving to go out of town shortly after work, so when I got home I had to load up and go, so I never had a chance to check her phone. By the time I got home Sunday and was able to check it, they were gone. She was at home alone, but had a couple of GF's over to scrapbook so I know there wasn't any funny business. But I do wonder why so many texts, and what did he have that he needed to talk to her about.
Things she's said: Now this is someone she refers to as a dumbass, and never really has anything good to say about. But there she is, being a friend when he needs it. How much of a friend I don't know. A couple of years ago he was thinking of looking for another job and asked her to write a letter of recommendation which she did. Shortly before Christmas she tells me he told her he had gotten a diamond ring and necklace for his wife, and she said to me, "Aren't you glad you don't have a wife that expects that kind of thing?" I asked if she told him what her cheapskate husband was getting her and she said, "He doesn't give a shit what you're giving me." Oh. So why was it that I give a shit about what he was giving his wife? A few weeks after that the office had closed for Christmas and one of her co-workers texted that she had left her wedding ring at the office and did WW think the security guard would get it for her and keep it until she could get up there to get it. WW says to me she's not sure he was trustworthy enough for that. He might take the ring and pawn it or something and say he couldn't find it. Um, if he was able to buy his wife a diamond ring and necklace, why would he need to steal that ring? I didn't ask, but it made me wonder. Also, if he's so untrustworthy, why is she a friend to him?
Ok, last couple of things. When I was checking her emails after dday I was checking email addresses. His was in there, but one that wasn't in her address book but came up when doing a search after putting in the first couple of letters in his name was (variation of his name)@sexiass.com. I did a search and the only thing I could find was a reference on a website with domain information and best I could tell it went down mid-2012. So what that was exactly I have no idea. The other thing is, during spring break last year the office was closed, but she needed to go up there to do a few things. She got dressed like she would for a regular day at the office and was wearing a low cut top. I said something about her being overdressed for the office to be closed. She said she didn't have anything else to wear because she'd gotten too fat, and that she hadn't even taken a shower. Oddly enough the next day she was wearing a shirt that she used to wear to work, but had gotten a little worn for the office and it fit fine. It also showed no cleavage.
So. Is there a "there" there? Or am I just being overly analytical and paranoid?
"What God has joined together, let man... no man put asunder" -Pastor at our wedding concluding the ceremony
2 Cor 12:9-10
Please be honest with me ... do you WS think about what you did? Do you wonder what would have happened if things had turned out differently etc?
I think about it every day. I did occasionally wonder what would have happened had things turned out differently. I've pondered many different scenarios. But I don't do that anymore...it's a waste of time. "What if"s are part of what led to the affair. "What is" is far more important to me now.
How did you forgive yourself and deal with the shame you felt?
I wouldn't say I have forgiven myself. I don't believe forgiveness (either from myself or from others) is necessary to heal. As for dealing with the shame...I deal with it by moving forward with my life in a positive direction. I have a saying that I keep in mind: "As long as there's forward motion, it's progress." The past 4 years, I haven't expected to be perfect immediately. As long as every day I was striving to be a little bit better than the day before, I was satisfied.
The shame of my A behavior will never be erased. It's always there, in the back of my mind (and, often when I'm on SI, at the forefront of my mind). More than 4 years after the start of the affair, I still literally cringe with shame and disgust when I think of the things I did. But I've changed and improved so much---that helps to deal with it.
[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 10:35 PM, January 13th (Monday)]
Married 2.5 years
Reconciled and remarried.
1. What made my WW want someone that is the same age as her dad?
2. Why would she do something like this when we had everything going for us in our lives.
3. What makes someone unremorseful and little contact after I caught her at the OM's home?
He said he didn't know why and that he didn't want our marriage to end.
Did you not fully commit the first time? Should I believe that he's truly trying?
He feels I'm being too demanding and overbearing. He says he's trying and to give him time. How much time? Am I being unrealistic? I need him to be more empathetic, more engaged with me, extra loving. I want him to participate more in our household.
Is there a "there" there? Or am I just being overly analytical and paranoid?
Do you think talking about the affair every day pushes them away?
However - I'd say your need to know takes precedence over his need to avoid, at this point. The fulfilment of your need to talk will eventually bring you, and him, healing. The fulfilment of his need to avoid will prolong your suffering and do nothing for him in the end.
To be honest, I can't imagine not talking about it every day at three weeks out... Perhaps agree on a set time and place for daily talks, until you both don't need that anymore? Include an 'affair talk free day' every now and then to give your nerves a rest? Perhaps another or an additional means of interaction, on paper or e-mail to help guide your talks?
Anyway, I really hope he steps up.
edited for lay out issues...
[This message edited by leftoolate at 9:18 AM, January 14th (Tuesday)]
I appreciate the response. I am actually doing very well considering everything that has gone on. The questions that I have been asking are more to help me try and get some understanding, I am an engineer and for whatever reason I always need to try and find out what/why things happened when they go wrong. Ultimately the woman I loved and married is dead, that realization has helped immensely.
I really need to hear the perspective of a WS. My WH has not been very understanding when to it comes to me choosing to stay separated. He asks me to come home in both nice and not so nice ways. I don't return home, despite a deep desire to do so, because I was kind go testing him - I wanted to know that we could talk about the affair and how all that happened hurts me to this day- without either an angry outburst or him just walking away. He could do it from time to time, but never with any consistency. And I felt like we were back at square one with each argument.
He says our separation makes things difficult and I am trying to control things and torture him by moving away and asking him questions. Ido agree that separation are it harder, but I needed him to show me that he was going to me patient. Now he wants nothing of me, wants a divorce, and blames me for the divorce because I've 'never wanted to return in the first place and only wanted to torture him." Did you or any other WH's react the same way? Is he just so disgusted with himself that he cannot tolerate what I am asking him to do? Please help me understand. I filed for divorce this week and it is tearing me apart.
~~Tao Te Ching
I have thought about asking him to leave his job, but it's the only job he has ever done in the last 12 years he really loves. I think eventually he will come to the conclusion that he should leave- he finds working with her a big pain now (or so he says...) - and I sort of want HIM to come to the decision. I think forcing him only makes things hostile. I know if someone forced me to leave MY job that I love, I would be angry. Although- I didn't have an A at work...
Also- how can he go from being so "in love" with this woman that he would risk losing his boys and his wife to saying that his feelings for her weren't actually real and that he was just so unhappy with himself? Can I actually believe that?
I have such trouble sorting all of these feelings out...A year and a half later....
do you WS honestly think that this can be reconcilled as long as he works with her?
how can he go from being so "in love" with this woman that he would risk losing his boys and his wife to saying that his feelings for her weren't actually real and that he was just so unhappy with himself? Can I actually believe that?
From an unfogged WS, I can tell you that the risk of losing family may not have held any weight whatsoever. There's a very good chance that your WS never thought of consequence because he never felt he would be caught. Some Waywards ignore or block out rational cause and effect scenarios. Some realize they are exhibiting risky behavior, but the thought of consequence doesn't affect their actions. I feel like I'm getting off course here, but what I mean to say is that it might never add up because the behavior is not measurable in terms of this much that much. What you can believe or choose to believe is that he is most likely out of the fog and hopefully acting rationally now. My guess is the feelings were probably not as real as advertised because they were based on a bunch of lies and felt without any concern for consequence, thus lacking any vulnerability or substance. Superficial. But I'm not really an expert; just another wayward..
I guess the FOG thing is what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around - because I just can't ever imagine being in such a FOG? I mean, our marriage was bad when this all happened. A lot of fighting and a lot of neglect. I understand needing an emotional "hit" and I'll totally own up to flirting with men just to feel wanted...but I can't imagine ever getting to a place where I would be telling another man I LOVED him???? I just don't get the discrepancy. I don't get the fog? How do you say you LOVE someone in an EA but then months later say the love wasn't real and can't even remember why you felt that way?
Question for WS- have any of you continued to work with your AP and successfully R?
Keep in mind, my WH only sees AP 3 or 4 times a year and the AP is also trying to work things out with her H (athough...I doubt that very much. I suspect she still has feelings for my WH since he was the one who ended things with her rather abruptly.)
I understand needing an emotional "hit" and I'll totally own up to flirting with men just to feel wanted...
but I can't imagine ever getting to a place where I would be telling another man I LOVED him??
Another thing to think about. If your emotional "hit" comes from the attention you get from flirting, what happens when you want a bigger hit? What if that initial hit isn't cutting it anymore? If you get a positive feeling from the attention brought on by flirting, imagine what the hit would feel like if you were to get someone to tell you they loved you/ can't live without you.
[This message edited by Steppenwolf at 3:33 PM, January 18th (Saturday)]