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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 6:30 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later,

Is she going to go for an official diagnosis of NPD? There is treatment for it, but I don't know how effective it is. Hopefully better than treating for PTSD


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3282 | Registered: Dec 2011
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Seeing how broken our wives are makes us instinctively want to help them but we must take care of ourselves.

Yes, this codependent mindset really puts us in an inferior position to truly address the situation. You can fix crazy broken people with no coping skills or conscience

But maybe that voice gets quieter over the years as it's ignored until it no longer functions properly. It may also be that the voices of justification, "I deserve to be happy," "My marriage is falling apart anyway," etc., drown out the voice of the conscience.

Well said. I do think they can dilude themselves to jus that point. If for years your MO is obfuscate, deny, ignore and blame shift. They really believe their BS and the logic behind it. It becomes their reality.

There is a lot of bally-hoo about FOO issues and trauma growing up. Ill probably get beat up about this but Im not buying it. At least not as a excuse for a affair.

Agreed it doesn’t excuse their behavior. But it demonstrates that people with broken personalities develop coping skills that in the face of the moment work. But over the long haul kill any ability to see reality in the future unless reoriented. I know in the wake of the infidelity I had coping skills that worked great at diverting me from the truth. I just chose to move past them and identify them as harmful thanks to many of you.

[This message edited by lordhasaplan? at 8:34 AM, December 5th (Thursday)]


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10)

Posts: 1795 | Registered: Nov 2010
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 8:55 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tred, i would be shocked if she ever went for an evaluation. I have raised the issue a couple of times and she immediately became extremely angry each time even though I tried to talk to her as gently as I could.

I have always been critical of the tendency to say if someone denies a problem that's just proof they do, in fact, have the problem. Nonetheless, it's my understanding that people with NPD are very resistant to treatment. That makes sense, as treatment necessarily means taking down the shields they are so dependent on.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wanted to bring something up - curious if anyone else has ever had to deal with this.

I've been trying to R for a while now, and my W really is trying hard to change herself and fix her issues and be a better person. But it is like she walks on eggshells around me sometimes. She knows how much hurt she caused with her A and with some of her past behavior, and she knows that I basically have 1 foot out the door. She's just hyper-sensitive with everything that she does to interact with me, like she's afraid to upset me or to say the wrong thing or whatever. Thing is, I'm a super easy going person. Takes a lot to get me upset. I've told her to just be herself and not worry if I get upset, but she can't seem to do that, and it causes her tons of anxiety.

Anyone else been in that boat with me? What do I do about it? She is trying so hard, but it's like she has a bit of analysis paralysis. It makes it hard to be around her because she's so scared to say anything at times that she just clams up and says nothing. And she wasn't a very talkative person to begin with.

I don't really feel like her and I have a connection anymore. But it's hard to try and rebuild that connection when she's worried that every damn thing she says or does will upset me.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 11:06 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later,

That's tough bro. Hard to treat something with no diagnosis. I did read that about NPD and the resistance to have it diagnosed. Can you give her a NPD test of the net and jokingly tell her it's a "compatibility test" or "love test"?

Slope,

Sounds like her fear of angering you will lead to angering you. Vicious circle mate. Maybe right her a note explaining this? Something that she can read on her own time without you over her shoulder so she won't feel threatened?


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3282 | Registered: Dec 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:26 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

slope,

I've been trying to R for a while now,...

and
...she knows that I basically have 1 foot out the door.

I do not believe that a couple can actively work on R and the M when there is an unequal or perceived as unequal power in the relationship. She has to feel free to express honest feelings without fear (real or perceived) that you will walk.

This is why I have my status as Not Divorcing. I am past the A-crap for the most part and at a point of acceptance and consider my dday and post dday wounds healed. The problem I have getting to R is my FWW. She is still dealing with her shame, depression, emotional calibration, and other issues. She is not in a position to advocate for herself effectively in the M. She is not able to be open to emotional intimacy and be a full partner in our relationship, so it is not possible in my view for us to R the M.

If you still have one foot out the door, then you are not sure you want to remain M’d to your FWW. R, in my opinion, takes commitment from both partners, and a commitment to stick through difficult and painful episodes. Maybe you are not ready to R, and it is enough that you are not divorcing your FWW for now while you continue to heal and she continues to fix her stuff and prove her love and desire for you along with her ability to establish and sustain healthy boundaries.

-Ats


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3961 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:34 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ontheslope.
Man I wish I had that problem. WW doesnt really give a damn about me one way or the other. O she says she does. But her actions dont back up her words.

Agreed it doesn’t excuse their behavior. But it demonstrates that people with broken personalities develop coping skills that in the face of the moment work. But over the long haul kill any ability to see reality in the future unless reoriented. I know in the wake of the infidelity I had coping skills that worked great at diverting me from the truth. I just chose to move past them and identify them as harmful thanks to many of you.

Does it really matter what the *cause* is? I think to often the *cause* comes across as the *excuse* or *justification*. As in *see Im not at fault because my parents were awful*.

Personally I dont care about that ever cause WW comes up with. I only am concerned with the effect. She could say that she cheated because she stood on her head to long as a child. Yeh ok fine. FIX IT THEN. The fixing it is the part I care about. But maybe Im just a heartless bastard.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3059 | Registered: Sep 2007
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Theres a thread in General about staying M and not R'ing. You guys might want to check it out.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3059 | Registered: Sep 2007
lordhasaplan?
♂ Member
Member # 30079
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But maybe Im just a heartless bastard.

Razor far from heartless. You provide alot of suport for a heartless man. But your experience with a less than helpful spouse does shape your perception as it should. I always appreciate the place your comments come from and they are not heartless.


D-day: 5/18/10, lies and TT till (11/26/10)

Posts: 1795 | Registered: Nov 2010
greengiant
♂ Member
Member # 41196
Default  Posted: 11:57 AM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ontheslope, same thing here.
My wife wasn't someone who talk much because of FOO, her IC is working on her to change that. She do not want to be unpleasant to anyone (To give you an idea, when we she's doing the grocery she's trying everything they propose to her because she thinks it will make them angry).
She's also afraid to say what she thinks and how she feels because she don't want to make things worse, but I keep telling her that she already did the worst thing she could do...
We are talking each day, but this morning before she left I told her that we won't be talking until it goes both ways and she say her things right in front of me, not in IC or MC.


ME - BS - 33
fWW - 33
Married 8 years, together 15
3 kids: 6, 4 and 2
D-Day: September 30th, 2013
She had a 6 weeks A with a COW

Posts: 141 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Quebec, Canada
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 2:57 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Greengiant my wife is a people pleaser... she wants to be liked and needed by everyone. I think alot of it has to do with growing up with cold parents who never gave her any positive reinforcement or encouragement. Nothing was ever good enough for them. So her coping skill was to bury her own wants and needs. Those include her sexual wants and needs from me. So when a young guy who she was attracted to but did not care about showed her some attention, she jumped at the chance to fulfille her needs in secret.

Wanted to bring something up - curious if anyone else has ever had to deal with this.
I've been trying to R for a while now, and my W really is trying hard to change herself and fix her issues and be a better person. But it is like she walks on eggshells around me sometimes. She knows how much hurt she caused with her A and with some of her past behavior, and she knows that I basically have 1 foot out the door. She's just hyper-sensitive with everything that she does to interact with me, like she's afraid to upset me or to say the wrong thing or whatever. Thing is, I'm a super easy going person. Takes a lot to get me upset. I've told her to just be herself and not worry if I get upset, but she can't seem to do that, and it causes her tons of anxiety.

Anyone else been in that boat with me? What do I do about it? She is trying so hard, but it's like she has a bit of analysis paralysis. It makes it hard to be around her because she's so scared to say anything at times that she just clams up and says nothing. And she wasn't a very talkative person to begin with.

I don't really feel like her and I have a connection anymore. But it's hard to try and rebuild that connection when she's worried that every damn thing she says or does will upset me.

My fWW is so scared I will leave that she has literally been acting liked a whipped puppy. It gets on my nerves and I find myself snapping at her whenever she won't come out and tell me how she feels about something or what she wants from me.

Our MC told me that my fWW is literally frozen with fear. She wants to help me heal from her cheating, but she is afraid of how I will percieve her attempts at showing me her remorse, so she just shuts down and cowers when she should be telling me straight up what she is thinking. So we are working on that now. It has been going great in the bedroom. She is finally opening up sexually. But now I want her to open up in th rest of the marriage.

[This message edited by DefeatedDad at 2:58 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
still-living
♂ Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 5:23 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There is a lot of bally-hoo about FOO issues and trauma growing up. Ill probably get beat up about this but Im not buying it. At least not as a excuse.

Think of life as nothing more than a giant flow chart of cause-and-effect events. Every event IS a "why." Every event IS an excuse.

Then keep asking your WS why, why, why, to dig deeper and to map out the events.

All marital conditions reasonable, likely, one result for your WS choosing to have an affair was from incorrect thought processes and resultant incorrect behavior (coping skills). However, the WS cant see this yet. The trick is for your WS to understand how their incorrect FOO issues contributed to their choice of having an affair. With this understanding the WS is more likely to accept and BELIEVE that their thought process, coping skills AND PRIOR BELIEFS were wrong. It''''''''s very hard to accept they have been wrong all this time, but directly tying an obvious wrong upbringing to it makes it more believable and accepted. Also, there needs to be motivation for the WS to assess it deep and make the change, I.e., no BS rug sweeping.

[This message edited by still-living at 5:32 PM, December 5th, 2013 (Thursday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

My dog farted, startled himself, wondered where the noise came from. I wish my life was as simple.


Posts: 626 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Think of life as nothing more than a giant flow chart of cause-and-effect events. Every event IS a "why." Every event IS an excuse.

Then keep asking your WS why, why, why, to dig deeper and to map out the events.

All marital conditions reasonable, likely, one result for your WS choosing to have an affair was from incorrect thought processes and resultant incorrect behavior (coping skills). However, the WS cant see this yet. The trick is for your WS to understand how their incorrect FOO issues contributed to their choice of having an affair. With this understanding the WS is more likely to accept and BELIEVE that their thought process, coping skills AND PRIOR BELIEFS were wrong. It's very hard to accept they have been wrong all this time. Also, there needs to be motivation.

The fallacy here is that we have a chain reaction. That was caused by this. This was caused by this other thing. This other thing was caused by something else. On and on it goes until we come to the lights were to bright in the delivery room.

We are all the sum of our experiences in life. So we could say that our WWs cheated on us because of the sum of their lives.

So it comes down to the choice to cheat being based on the totality of their life. In other words their choice was based on who they are. The fault then is not a single event or even the sum of a series of events. But rather it is based on their personality.

Can ANY amount of IC or MC ever change that? IMO no.

We can put in place disciplines that change patterns of behavior. But our WWs remain who they are. And in the end these disciplines must be put in place and maintained by our WW. Not us.

Our best hope of recovery lies not in sorting through one event. Or a series of events in their lives. But instead our WWs implementing tools that effectively change their behavior.

So we have these broken people that we are M to. Being broken there is always the possibility their true personality will show up at some time. And that could be painful for us.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3059 | Registered: Sep 2007
HoldingTogether
♂ Member
Member # 29429
Default  Posted: 7:27 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Sounds like this is all coming down to a nature verses nurture argument. Clearly there is only one way to resolve the question....

See, what we're gonna have to do is get Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy to effectively trade places with each other. Then we can bet a dollar on how they each do.....

No. Wait. That was something else entirely.

Never mind. Carry on.


Me:BH 41
Her:FWW40(Walkinoneggshellz)
2 Beautiful little girls 13&10
Dday: 7/24/10 1yr EA turned 5 monthPA
"I gotta hole in me now... I got a scar I can talk about."

Posts: 337 | Registered: Aug 2010 | From: New Life
still-living
♂ Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Can ANY amount of IC or MC ever change that? IMO no.

Yes IMO, but the amount of change is proportional to the amount of trauma, and the pain must be faced and processed not ignored.

I have PERMANENTLY changed as the result of my wife's affair. I believe pain, if processed correctly, can be the cause or "why" for newly acquired wisdom, and that newly acquired wisdom can be the cause or "why" for newly acquired peace. Inversely, unprocessed pain can be the cause or why for increased anger needed for protection, or increased need for admiration needed as compensation. We can face it and be wise and at peace, or we can ignore it and be angry and needy, depending on which path we take to survive. The AP was on the wrong path of survival. Wrong because it does not secure a best legacy, -the ultimate extension of survival after you are gone. Or, even more basic, the AP was protecting themselves only, not the herd, not the species.

We can put in place disciplines that change patterns of behavior. But our WWs remain who they are. And in the end these disciplines must be put in place and maintained by our WW. Not us

Totally agree. Just like we do for our children. But in the end the AP must see and believe for themselves, not just be told or controlled. This why I think understanding FOO flaws, if existing, can help.

[This message edited by still-living at 7:52 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

My dog farted, startled himself, wondered where the noise came from. I wish my life was as simple.


Posts: 626 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
TheCollector
♂ Member
Member # 38890
Default  Posted: 7:45 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey menz I'm a long time lurker with occasional posts. I posted my story awhile back on the BM thread but not a ton of insight at that time but that's cool menz I love this helpful thread......
Short story is double betrayal with my good friend/co-worker and found out about the affair the same moment I found out she was pregnant and not sure of the father.....
2 years out in attempted R.... Don't know if I can make it....

BUT I am actually posting to tell you guys of a band that has helped me in all states of mind... I REALLY REALLY WANT YOU GUYS TO YOUTUBE OR DOWNLOAD SOME SAMPLE SONGS. I can't express myself as greatly as this expresses my experience. It's a 3 album long story of a man in the 17th century who is a captain and finds out his wife cheated with his own brother.

It is called "RIGHT AWAY,GREAT CAPTAIN"
Ssome songs are

Blame
I'm not ready to forgive you
Anna no
Love come and save me
We were made out of lightning
Rotten black root
Cutting off the blood to ten
Memories from ashore part 1 AND 2

I hope you guys check this out and it helps some of you. Thanks menz.

Ps. I intend to update my story on my profile in a day or so


Infidelity really IS the gift that keeps on giving...

Posts: 62 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: thecollector
bobf
♂ Member
Member # 41412
Default  Posted: 8:04 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ontheslope

I understand what you and your wife are going through. My wife is acting the same way, at least some of the time. She is worried that saying certain things will be triggers and it makes her anxious and upset. I know she oftentimes cries and is so sorry and worries I will leave her.

I also have no interest in leaving her. I love her and forgive her and she is doing everything right to R (remorseful, open and tries very hard to make things as right as she can), but she still gets so upset sometimes when she sees the pain I am going through. I think sometimes she wants to leave, to spare me the pain. The thing is, the pain was caused by the action and leaving won't make it better, it will make it worse as I want to be with her the rest of my life. I love her so much.

[This message edited by bobf at 11:48 AM, December 6th (Friday)]


Me: BH early 50s
Her: fWW late 40s (kmom2662)
7 Wk OEA, Skype, Cyber
DDay 10-4-13
Married 20+ years
Currently in R

Posts: 142 | Registered: Nov 2013
still-living
♂ Member
Member # 30434
Default  Posted: 8:12 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

See, what we're gonna have to do is get Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy to effectively trade places with each other. Then we can bet a dollar on how they each do.....

Its interesting how identical twins can be so similar, yet different, growing up under the same roof, or not.

My wife is a maternal twin, however she was the one violated during her childhood. By far, my wife projected the A personality and superiority, and behind doors used anger as a defense mechanism daily. Both were passive aggressive and had low self esteem but my wife has drastically improved in these two departments.

[This message edited by still-living at 8:14 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

My dog farted, startled himself, wondered where the noise came from. I wish my life was as simple.


Posts: 626 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 9:49 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Collector. Will check out the tunes.

Btw there's a thread in Just Found Out called 'Betrayed by my own brother!' You might want to contact the author of that thread about this music.

[This message edited by Mr. Kite at 9:54 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
nuance
♂ Member
Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 11:27 PM, December 5th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do not believe that a couple can actively work on R and the M when there is an unequal or perceived as unequal power in the relationship. She has to feel free to express honest feelings without fear (real or perceived) that you will walk.

Well, I don't think you can really commit before you're sure she's on board. That's the price of the A and it's a bargain if you ask me. You should have your foot out the door for the first 6 months or a year after D day.

[This message edited by nuance at 11:28 PM, December 5th (Thursday)]


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

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