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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
Montreal
♂ New Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Had my first MC meeting yesterday. It was okay. Better than the IC me and the wife had been (separately) seeing. That IC told me I shouldn't talk to my wife about anything, and he told my wife that she needed to be "cut-throat" with me and not let me wallow in it. Seriously, how do these guys make a living? But I digress.

Our MC certainly doesn't seem like she is going to be the type to hold anybody's feet to any fires, but she seemed straightforward enough. Very soft-spoken, a whisperer really, and if you only listened to her tone you'd think she was a "there-there, let's all hug" type. But the actual words, as I heard them anyways, seemed to be much more in line with what I need. We spent the session telling "our story" and while the MC nodded politely at the wife's "he wasn't appreciating" bit she quickly pointed out "as long as he feels like you don't understand how hurt he is you're not going to move forward, even if you do understand". Which was nice. Validated my feelings as opposed to IC who felt I was raking the wife over the coals and needed to move on. Our MC also said that it was "smart" of me not to want to trust the wife if she wasn't going to commit to our marriage now and forever, until death do us part, and without saying it basically told her that she ain't getting nothing out of me until we deal with the A first. IC said we couldn't talk about the A, whereas MC said "we have a lot of talking about the affair to do and we needed to do that before dealing with the issues that lead to the affair."

Other things she said were basically a repetition of everything I've read here; it's a long haul, it's going to be tough slogging, there is hope but it's not easy, etcetera. All whispered. I got the impression my wife doesn't like her, but that's probably because the MC basically repeated everything I've been telling my wife that I need, including telling her that I "need to feel safe" before I can give her anything she wants or needs. When I said that to my wife she kind of implied that it was childish, and perhaps unmanly.

I don't know if we are going to make it. My wife may simply decide that this is too hard and she doesn't love me enough for that, and frankly speaking I'm okay with that. But it's nice to know that the MC and I are at least on the same page on how we need to approach this. My wife said to me today that "we" are important to her, so she will continue to go, so I guess that is a positive. We'll see.


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2013
Montreal
♂ New Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As an aside, I think I had a break-through on Friday, for lack of a better word. I was at my seven year old's hockey practice, and my 10 year old son and 4 year old daughter were goofing around, climbing on my back and so on. While I was playing with them I was nonetheless thinking about "it". It's never really out of your mind, right? And as I have thought a million times in the last four months I thought "I might just divorce her."

Now in the past whenever I have thought that I have always felt intense pain. Fear, anger, rage, hopelessness, pick your negative emotion. Thinking "I'm going to divorce her" was always followed by "I don't want to! Why can't she change! Why did this happen! Misery! Misery! Misery!" But Friday was different. When I thought about divorcing her you know what I felt? Calm. An overwhelming sense of calm. It actually flowed right over me. My shoulders slumped, the tension sagged out my neck, and my face muscles all relaxed. It was so... calming. Now this isn't to say I was "happy". I still felt incredibly sad, especially for the kids as we goofed around, but I was okay with the decision. I don't want to divorce, I have no plans to divorce, but I completely and totally accepted that it is a very real possibility. More than that, I'm quite prepared to initiate it not out of anger or retaliation, but simply because it might be something I have to do to move on. It's a very liberating experience, really. Again, I don't want to divorce, I am going to work extremely hard at saving my marriage, but if it's not a two-way street I'm not going to put up with it. I can, and I will, move on. With or without her.

It's been a few days now, and I still feel that calmness when thinking about divorce. So I think it's a breakthrough of some sort.


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2013
DazedWI
♂ Member
Member # 41432
Default  Posted: 9:34 PM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, this thread has moved a lot in on day. Just wanted to add this as well.

After court I put my coat on and they exited the courtroom.I approached POSOM he looked like a deer in the headlights.I extended my hand and I shook his and with a smile I said "thank you" turned and walked away still smiling.

Well played indeed!!


ME (29) - BS
Her (29) - STBXWW
Dday - 10/25/2013
Married - 7/2007
Been Together - 9/2003

Posts: 83 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife, for a night cap after they were drinking in the hotel bar. When he kissed her she realized he was erect so she blew him and had sex.


damn, ats now I am certainly convinced we are M'd to the same woman-this exact thing happened with my WW-out of town, drinking with others in the hotel bar at a conference, and this guy she had been sexting for the last month or so was there...I never got all the details like you seem to have, though.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Sproket
♂ Member
Member # 41262
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Montreal, that sounds similar to our MC. He's not soft spoken though and very upfront.
My WW just has issues, from being raped as a teen to self esteem. My MC has been working with her on those issues and getting her to understand how that crap causes the affairs and other shit that she imagines in her head.
He talks to me about letting go of the anger and pain. Once we get pass all the emotional bullshit **his words **you can make the correct decision on your marriage.


ME:BS 40
W: WW 40
M: Oct 2009
D.D Nov 2, 2013

Posts: 68 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: VA
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW just has issues, from being raped as a teen to self esteem. My MC has been working with her on those issues and getting her to understand how that crap causes the affairs and other shit that she imagines in her head.

I'm guessing that all of our Ws probably have similar issues, at least with self-esteem and FOO and other fucked-upedness.

I think I turned a corner on Monday night when my W finally sat me down to relate the entire A. Even if she did sugar coat things, I'm really at this point just kind of numb to it. It's really just starting to be just 'a thing that happened'. That being said, I also started to, for the first time, really see my W for who she is - which is a W who tries very hard to please me but who has issues dating back to when she was a child that really cut to the core of who she is. It's kind of sad really... I always saw her as someone who just needed a little nudge in order to blossom into this awesome person, but now that I'm getting more comfortable with myself, I'm seeing her as someone who is just broken and who really has some deep psychological problems.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
DazedWI
♂ Member
Member # 41432
Default  Posted: 11:42 AM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

That being said, I also started to, for the first time, really see my W for who she is - which is a W who tries very hard to please me but who has issues dating back to when she was a child that really cut to the core of who she is. It's kind of sad really... I always saw her as someone who just needed a little nudge in order to blossom into this awesome person, but now that I'm getting more comfortable with myself, I'm seeing her as someone who is just broken and who really has some deep psychological problems.

Slope, this realization also is helping me move on too. Seeing how broken our wives are makes us instinctively want to help them but we must take care of ourselves. Our wives have to realize this on their own and want to change. We can't make them see how bad their childhood really was, it's hard for a kid to admit their parents sucked.


ME (29) - BS
Her (29) - STBXWW
Dday - 10/25/2013
Married - 7/2007
Been Together - 9/2003

Posts: 83 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm guessing that all of our Ws probably have similar issues, at least with self-esteem and FOO and other fucked-upedness.

I think I turned a corner on Monday night when my W finally sat me down to relate the entire A. Even if she did sugar coat things, I'm really at this point just kind of numb to it. It's really just starting to be just 'a thing that happened'. That being said, I also started to, for the first time, really see my W for who she is - which is a W who tries very hard to please me but who has issues dating back to when she was a child that really cut to the core of who she is. It's kind of sad really... I always saw her as someone who just needed a little nudge in order to blossom into this awesome person, but now that I'm getting more comfortable with myself, I'm seeing her as someone who is just broken and who really has some deep psychological problems.

Same here. Things are better with my wife, but with her it was not so much abuse as a child but that she was indoctrinated with so much false information from her fucked up parents that it just messed up her way of thinking.

When you have a high-sex-drive woman and you tell her she is not allowed to have hot sex with her husband because to do so is against scriptures? (no one has been able to point out the particular Bible verse to me yet)... well, that woman is going to have to find some release somewhere. In my fWW's case it was a younger man at her workplace.

So now with my wife it is a matter of changing her mindset and not so much her psychology. The only psychological damage she has ever suffered in her life was as a result of this affair...totally self-inflicted. It's funny, her affair has tramatized both of us, when you would think it only should have been me with the PTSD.


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:08 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...a W who tries very hard to please me but who has issues dating back to when she was a child that really cut to the core of who she is. It's kind of sad really... I always saw her as someone who just needed a little nudge in order to blossom into this awesome person, but now that I'm getting more comfortable with myself, I'm seeing her as someone who is just broken and who really has some deep psychological problems.

Me too slope. Understanding this helped me a lot in healing from her As and getting to acceptance. Where it has been a problem is R. She has done a lot of work, I am assured she has made progress, but her issues were so deep that they still affect her ability to participate in an emotionally intimate relationship, to be open and honest (even with herself).


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 12:27 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me too slope. Understanding this helped me a lot in healing from her As and getting to acceptance. Where it has been a problem is R. She has done a lot of work, I am assured she has made progress, but her issues were so deep that they still affect her ability to participate in an emotionally intimate relationship, to be open and honest (even with herself).


And don't forget the age factor. Could it be your WW is just too damn set in her ways to fix those things?


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 12:54 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

...a W who tries very hard to please me but who has issues dating back to when she was a child that really cut to the core of who she is. It's kind of sad really... I always saw her as someone who just needed a little nudge in order to blossom into this awesome person, but now that I'm getting more comfortable with myself, I'm seeing her as someone who is just broken and who really has some deep psychological problems.


Mine is getting close to 50, so I'm pretty sure this leopard won't change many spots.
Since dday I have found out mine was sexually molested from a young age by an uncle, I think this has more to do with it than anything. But I can't seem to feel real love for her anymore, only pity-I cannot imagine someone doing that to a child, and he did it to her sister too(she also has dysfunctional Ms, she M'd two alcoholics). Like I'm guarded now I guess. Can't take that leap. Don't have the faith.

[This message edited by 64fleet at 12:55 PM, December 4th (Wednesday)]


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:56 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My WW just has issues, from being raped as a teen to self esteem. My MC has been working with her on those issues and getting her to understand how that crap causes the affairs and other shit that she imagines in her head.

There is a lot of bally-hoo about FOO issues and trauma growing up. Ill probably get beat up about this but Im not buying it. At least not as a excuse for a affair.

EVERYONE I know comes from some kind of screwed up family. Including me. Abusive parents that basically used us as canon fodder to their own ends. 2 of my brothers were killed when I was young. A sister shot but survived. Parents abandoning us such that we all had to fend for ourselves. Hell yeh my family was a model for disfunctionality but I responded to that be being the opposite of them. I didnt use their abuse to abuse others myself. I didnt cheat. I didnt have a affair.

So yeh I get that people come from abusive families and fucked up situations. But we have the power to rise above that and be better people than those of our origin. I see FOO stuff as mostly just another excuse for bad behavior. Just another justification.

We KNOW whats right and whats wrong. We KNOW it. Our WWs knew shagging some other guy was wrong which is why they lied about it and covered it up. IMO everyone hears that voice in their head screaming when they are about to do something wrong. But they CHOOSE to jump into bed with another guy anyway. Then later when grasping for excuses and justification FOO comes up.

Nope Im not buying it. Sorry if that pisses people off.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 1:05 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor,

Well said. That's pretty much how I feel. Without getting into too much detail, my FOO sucked as well. Mother was a serial adultress, 5 kids, 5 different men. Married two of them. Saw her get the shit beat out of her in our apartment by a pissed off wife of a married man she was fucking. Abused by one of her boyfriends and a friend of his for over a year. Had to stand in Federal court and get cross examined when I was teenager as the bastard finally raped some kid who told. Homeless for months. When we did have a place, it was the best Section 8 housing we could find. I've wanted one thing in my life - to give my kids a better life where what happened to me is inconceivable to them. My FOO probably is instrumental in my PTSD, as every woman I've trusted has betrayed me in the worst way by putting piece of shit men above me so they could fuck them. All so they could get fucked. Maybe that's too simplistic, but it's the way I see it. I tried so hard NOT to marry a woman like my mother. Life's a bitch.

ETA: Just speaking from my own experience. Maybe in a different life I'd be blaming my FOO for not being able to stay loyal to my spouse. Just not in this one.

[This message edited by Tred at 1:10 PM, December 4th (Wednesday)]


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 1:15 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

can't seem to feel real love for her anymore, only pity-

yep 64fleet, this is about where I am too.

As for FOO or other issues related to the A, the baseline still is that the A was wrong. Betraying your spouse and marriage vows is wrong. Having sex with the spouse of another BS is wrong. Leaving on work time or family time to blow and fuck OM is wrong. Sharing intimate details of your M with people outside your family is wrong. And sadly, what we read and see it is neither unique nor rare.

Many people do have the same difficult issues our WSs have and do not have A's, but our WS did. Where I think identifying FOO, or other issues, helps is in determining what needs to be fixed. There are plenty of instances here on SI where an A was rug swept and the WS and BS go on to have a 2nd and 3rd dday. By identifying personal issues that contributed it can help the WS to establish healthier boundaries and behaviors going forward, and it helps to give the BS a bit of security and an idea of the type of acting out or issue to watch for.

My FWW may or may not be/been diagnosable as a borderline, but she definitely has traits. By working on these traits with her IC she is able to better (not all the time) see when she is projecting or painting me black or white. With IC help and reading she now has new coping mechanisms to practice when she feels stressed rather than flirting with an OM for attention and affirmation. My FWW has had to accept and struggle with the FACT that the way she perceives life and emotions is often wrong. She has to practice behaviors to look for additional explanations, to determine if she is reacting to a fact or a feeling. None of this excuses her A, but it does help her to establish personal boundaries and be a better partner in a relationship.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3968 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 1:39 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dunno, I guess my childhood was idyllic compared to some, but I can also see how an uncle fucking you from a young(6-ish) age can wreak havoc on someone. She seems emotionally stunted almost-like a kid still sometimes. Too much denial in her to explore it, though.
Maybe it is me.

My FWW may or may not be/been diagnosable as a borderline, but she definitely has traits.

not surprisingly, same thing here.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5360 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think the SA and FOO background excuses the adultery, but it does help understand who she is, and why she is capable of such screwed up behavior.

In particular, I see how she avoids reality. She chooses to believe that whatever she is doing will bring about unicorns and rainbows. So, the next "purchase/change" will make her happy. Whatever she currently has is tainted by reality, so it is awfull. No rainbows can be seen. Since it's not perfect, it must not be looked at. The uncomfortable should not be discussed. It's too real.

And reality can never be faced. Survival depends on ignoring consequences.


Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Later. What your talking about are personality traits that may not be linked to FOO issues.

If anything our WW affairs have taken OUR blinders off. WE were the ones seeing unicorns farting rainbows when it came to our view of our wives.

So with the personality traits of our WWs revealed and our blinders finally off. We can now say we really see who our WW are. This is good knowledge when it comes to deciding to stay or go.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 2:59 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

IMO everyone hears that voice in their head screaming when they are about to do something wrong.

But maybe that voice gets quieter over the years as it's ignored until it no longer functions properly. It may also be that the voices of justification, "I deserve to be happy," "My marriage is falling apart anyway," etc., drown out the voice of the conscience.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 4:00 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think deep down my W can't stand anything that isn't in turmoil. Her life was always in some state of upheaval, and possibly when things got too comfortable she just couldn't take it. Or... because things had calmed down I stopped needing to be her KISA so she took that to mean I didn't love her as much or care as much or something...


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Later
♂ Member
Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 4:13 PM, December 4th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor, I agree that my eyes have been opened. And I agree that I may be misreading it.

But what I think is I am looking behind the mask for the first time in 25 years. Believe me, I am not saying that makes everything okay.

It is information to consider. If, as I suspect, she has NPD it's important to know,

I will say that a lot of my anger has been replaced with sadness. It's hard to distinguish how much sadness if for her. Most of it is for the kids. But I do feel sadness for her now.

At the same time, if she really does have NPD that does not bode well for reconciliation. Regardless of whether it is full blown NPD or just personality traits, I always expected there would be limits as to what she could / would do toward R and that is part of why D is imminent.


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