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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 16
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

happy birthday exhausted.
fWW is bummed her niece is divorcing after about 2 yrs of M-they went to couples counseling etc before M-I thought they might make it...I mentioned her H probably has a girlfriend, all I got was "no comment". Why does this piss me off?

Glad you got a job sproket-I was stupid enough to be a SAHD, and it was career suicide. Starting over is a real bitch.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 9:36 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Is she trying to spare you pain or avoid owning her shit?

Good question, man. Honestly not sure, but I think it is more the 'spare me pain' variety. Every time she has lied in the past it has been for that reason. She's afraid that if she upsets me I'll leave, so she just hides things. This is about the 4th time that I've found out she's pooch screwed the finances, and there have been other cases to.

I'm kind of starting to see her for who she really is... and it is kind of sad, man. What the hell happened to the woman I thought I married?


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
5454real
♂ Member
Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 9:42 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What the hell happened to the woman I thought I married?

Great question. Brings up another that I've been grappling with. Was she that good at showing me a mask, or was I just too willfully blind to see who she was.

I know a big part was the blindness.(hence the five for five). Just how much is to be determined.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2068 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Ontheslope,

I mean... she was afraid I'd get upset so she decided to hide the reason from me? And this isn't the first time she's done something like this to me.....

And it will not be the last until she owns and addresses this aspect of her personality. FWW has a similar problem. She will not tell me about a problem, or will hide an issue for fear that I will become angry and mad at her. I do not know anyone who stays happy and joyful when they find they have to fix an irrigation line that was driven over, patch a damaged wall, or has an unexpected $500 cost, but FWW takes my initial "well crap" and admitted short term (10 - 30 minutes) bitchiness as a personal attack. There is little to no reason for her to feel this way from her dealings with me, this is all her childhood experience with an alcoholic M and other FOO issues acting out.

This sort of behavior by FWW erodes my trust and respect for her, and is one of the major issues interfering with us getting to R. I find it difficult to feel emotionally intimate and trusting with a person who cannot be relied on to be honest with me. Even simple things like what she might want to do on a weekend or eat for supper she will lie or be ambiguous about (“whatever, I don’t care”) for fear of suggesting something that I do not want to do. For the first 19 years of the M I tried to guess what she wanted. Not now, in the absence of a request otherwise I do what I want. No more guessing. The problem is that she still feels and collects resentment for all the times in her perception that I get my way.

If a W is hiding expenses and not being willing to be open about the family budget, what else is she willing to hide? How the relationship is going? Her building feelings for an OM at work or the gym? Last spring FWW felt left out when she accompanied me to a professional conference. She got mad and drove home in our car leaving me at the hotel.

Does your FWW see and IC? IS this something she can work on with the IC or with you and a MC? Unfortunately for us it has become difficult to impossible for FWW to schedule additional IC/MC sessions, so she is left to deal with this on her own and it is not going well.

--Ats

ETA:

What the hell happened to the woman I thought I married?

In my sich, she never existed. I glossed over or ignored red flags and problems. I took ownership of problems in our relationship that were not mine to fix. Now I see FWW for who she really is, and was.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:11 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
ExhaustedWhat2do
♂ New Member
Member # 40947
Default  Posted: 9:52 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the well wishes.

WW wants to know if I have plans for my Bday. WTF? You want to celebrate my bday, are you going to invite the OM along too....

What part of D papers is she not getting? These things are over...


BS(Me) 42
WW 43
DD 9/27/13
Married 6 1/2yrs; together 8
Going through Divorce, heading toward freedom

Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2013
ExhaustedWhat2do
♂ New Member
Member # 40947
Default  Posted: 9:56 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Even simple things like what she might want to do on a weekend or eat for supper she will lie or be ambiguous about (“whatever, I don’t care”) for fear of suggesting something that I do not want to do. For the first 19 years of the M I tried to guess what she wanted, not in the absence of a request otherwise I do what I want. No more guessing. The problem is that she still feels and collects resentment for all the times in her perception that I get my way.

atsenaotie, this is exactly how my WW thinks and acts..Everything in our relationship for the last 8 yrs has been my way and my way only.


BS(Me) 42
WW 43
DD 9/27/13
Married 6 1/2yrs; together 8
Going through Divorce, heading toward freedom

Posts: 34 | Registered: Oct 2013
Montreal
♂ New Member
Member # 40627
Default  Posted: 10:07 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife seems to have a problem with lying too, and not just because of the affairs. Its one of the reasons why I told her she had to get herself some IC. She has issues. When our first child was just about one year's old he got very sick. Very, very sick, very, very bad ear infection. Fever over 104 degrees, sick. So we took him into the hospital, and we actually spent New Year's Eve with him there, while they pumped him full of IV antibiotics. Obviously very scary for new parents, but in the end it was just a bad infection that was taken care of. No harm done. But it's become "one of our stories", and why not? Spending New Year's Eve in the hospital with your first child is a "story" right? I tell it myself. The problem is the story gets bigger and bigger in my wife's version, every time she tells it. The last time she actually said "cancer". I was like, "wait... what?" I mean, I would remember if the doctors had of told me my son may have cancer, right?? "Well, the doctor's never said 'cancer', but you could tell by the way they were referring to the infection that they thought it was a possibility." Whatever, I just wrote it off as dramatic story-telling. But now... geez, I don't know what to make of it. She said that she had her affairs because "she liked the attention", well what better way to get attention than to say your kid might have had cancer? Munchhausen by proxy and all that.

And there are other little white lies. She buys something for $100, she tells me it was $75. Like, what difference does that make? Takes her 20 minutes to get there, she says 15 or 25. And so on. It's a pattern, and while of course you don't make the connection between "25 minutes" and "she's going to cheat on me" I wonder if there is a connection somehow. A personality flaw of some sort?

Before D-day I just kind of shrugged them off as "exaggerations" and "well that's just the way it is", but now? She needs help.

[This message edited by Montreal at 10:09 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


DDay: July 6, 2013
"not divorcing"

Posts: 50 | Registered: Sep 2013
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 10:19 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

she still doesn't know why she went through with it and that it was basically all OM's fault - that he led her on and used her.

Bull shit. Just deflection and shifting the blame away from herself onto OM. I heard the same shit. Its common. She is just this poor innocent flower that was used by the OM. Yeh right.

He used her. She used him. And neither one cared.

TT and continued lying is NOT TO SPARE YOU PAIN. Its never about that. All that lying is about avoiding consequences.

Spare you pain? Well if she tell you and you cry she may look bad or feel bad. Its not about you at all. You might get angry and D her.

Lying. Including lies of omission are all about CONTROL. By controlling what you know she controls you. She controls what decisions you make. She controls what actions you take. And she controls any negative consequences such as giving up her privacy.

The cruelest lies are often told in silence. Robert Lewis Stevenson


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 10:50 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lying. Including lies of omission are all about CONTROL. By controlling what you know she controls you. She controls what decisions you make. She controls what actions you take. And she controls any negative consequences such as giving up her privacy.

She has admitted to control issues in the past. You may have hit the nail on the head here.

It's just frustrating. I mean... it was bad enough that I had to sit there and listen to her relate all of what happened. I mean... it was good in a way, but I was left feeling like there was more I didn't know about. Like she was trying to sugar coat some stuff.

If she had just said "I liked him and thought he was cute and I wanted to have sex with him" then I think I would have been more willing to buy the story. But this whole bit about her not wanting to and how awful it was for her... I don't know. Just sounded... hollow.

I actually said to her at one point: "If you told him 'no' and he went ahead anyway, then there's rape charges that need to be filed"...but she backed away from that like an rabbit running from a fox.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

One of my problems with going to a MC is that so many of them buy the cock and bull stories about FOO and how the M being bad (your fault of course) made her have her affair.

MCs buy into this because its an easy fix and its something they have read about in books. Me and WW went to several and none could (IMO) find their ass even using both hands. They buy into the M issues excuse because M issues are something they have read about and think they know how to fix. Communication issues are the same.

I dont want to even get started on the old *my husband was abusive* kick.

Remember that pretty much ALL WS rewrite M history soas to justify their affair. They make their BS bad wrong and evil just so they can feel ok about screwing someone else. They can say we *drove* them to it.

IMO any MC that buys into this rewrite is just enabling affair behavior.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
64fleet
♂ Member
Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 11:04 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Once again ats, I'm pretty sure we M'd the same woman. I could have written you entire post, if I had better writing skills...

So, my DD is learning the same coping skills as her mother-how can I stop this? How do I get thru to her(she's 8)that lying to me is not the first thing to do?

[This message edited by 64fleet at 11:05 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5359 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 11:07 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm kind of starting to see her for who she really is... and it is kind of sad, man. What the hell happened to the woman I thought I married?

I've asked myself the same question. Either she only existed in my mind, or she did exist but lost her way for some reason. We'll never know for sure because no one can completely get into the mind of another person.

Even simple things like what she might want to do on a weekend or eat for supper she will lie or be ambiguous about (“whatever, I don’t care”) for fear of suggesting something that I do not want to do.

Man, does this hit home. I'm sure women who cheat come in all forms, but the way many WWs are described - on this forum or the way they describe themselves on other forums - leads me to believe that conflict avoidant / people pleasing types are especially vulnerable.

I'm convinced that a big reason my wife cheated was because the OM was nice to her and so damned persistent. At some point it would have felt rude to her to say no to him, as crazy as that sounds. Subconsciously at least, she'd rather destroy her marriage and break up her children's home than do anything that would hurt the OM's feelings and cut off the warm and fuzzies he was feeding her. I think active, predatory OM are pretty good at picking up on these traits and self-esteem issues. As my wife's OM once said, "I chase lots of mommies." Sure you do. Many of them are selfless givers of themselves who feel older, less attractive, and less appreciated than they used to. If you can catch one away from her husband enough times, it's easy pickings.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 11:10 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1028 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 11:10 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do I get thru to her(she's 8)that lying to me is not the first thing to do?

Through positive reinforcement with regards to telling the truth. Kids at that age lie because they are worried that telling the truth will land them in more trouble then lying. So...you need to set the example that enforces the exact opposite of that. Make them proud of the fact that they did something wrong but were able to tell the truth about it. Don't make them proud of what they did wrong (obviously), but only proud of the fact that they owned up to it. Tell them how grown up that makes them. Brag about it in front of family. Telling the truth needs to be something that isn't just 'not scary', but is rewarded and thought of as behavior fitting a child of that age.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 11:11 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And there are other little white lies. She buys something for $100, she tells me it was $75. Like, what difference does that make? Takes her 20 minutes to get there, she says 15 or 25. And so on. It's a pattern, and while of course you don't make the connection between "25 minutes" and "she's going to cheat on me" I wonder if there is a connection somehow. A personality flaw of some sort?

Sure there's a connection and a personality flaw. If someone lies about what they perceive to be minor things, then they most certainly will lie about the major things like a boyfriend she forgot to mention. Lying is a habit that begins in childhood. By the adult years it's so ingrained in the personality that it becomes automatic like breathing in and out. They're not even aware of it any longer.

All that lying is about avoiding consequences.

Lying. Including lies of omission are all about CONTROL. By controlling what you know she controls you. She controls what decisions you make. She controls what actions you take. And she controls any negative consequences such as giving up her privacy.

WW has struggled with eating disorders all her life. In therapy I found out that it's not so much about being thin but about feeling in control. That need to control includes lying and hiding information.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:23 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think active, predatory OM are pretty good at picking up on these traits and self-esteem issues.

Actually, once I became aware of this dynamic I see it pretty well too. I work with a lot of women and I am now a little amazed how easy it is to pick out the ones looking for attention and affirmation. I suspect the same is true for some men for whom some fluffy admiration from a woman and or a touch on their arm commands their rapt attention.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:30 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing is that (IMO) everyone likes getting attention from the opposite sex. Especially when that attention comes from someone thats attractive. Men women young old it doesnt matter because we all like that affirmation and ego boost.

Some of us have boundaries we wont cross tho. And for some those boundaries are weak or dont exist. Why that is I dont know.

I have worked around women in the past and NEVER allowed my boundaries to be crossed. Even around young attractive women that were those with communication styles that involved touching and even hugs. Im actually uncomfortable around women that are that way.

I guess my point is that you can like that affirmation and ego boost and still not cheat. So what is it that made it possible for our WWs to have affairs?


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3084 | Registered: Sep 2007
DazedWI
♂ Member
Member # 41432
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And it will not be the last until she owns and addresses this aspect of her personality. FWW has a similar problem. She will not tell me about a problem, or will hide an issue for fear that I will become angry and mad at her. I do not know anyone who stays happy and joyful when they find they have to fix an irrigation line that was driven over, patch a damaged wall, or has an unexpected $500 cost, but FWW takes my initial "well crap" and admitted short term (10 - 30 minutes) bitchiness as a personal attack. There is little to no reason for her to feel this way from her dealings with me, this is all her childhood experience with an alcoholic M and other FOO issues acting out.

Wow, you guys have hit my wife's personality on the head. She has had an eating disorder since college and it is all about control. When she feels she doesn't have any, that is when it starts up again. All the lies were her trying to control the situation wit me and she truly believes her OM loves her like she him. What a crock of shit. Now that I am not blinded anymore I see that her personality traits stem for childhood and she doesn't want to face them. What kid wants to admit that their parents treated them like shit. These OM that take advantage of weak women should get what they deserve!


ME (29) - BS
Her (29) - STBXWW
Dday - 10/25/2013
Married - 7/2007
Been Together - 9/2003

Posts: 83 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest
DazedWI
♂ Member
Member # 41432
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Razor, I disagree with the attractiveness of the individual and more so the opportunity. The OM my WW had her affair with is not attractive and is the same age as her dad. His title as a plastic surgeon and money were why she did it and continued. Especially when it give her recognition from her mother.


ME (29) - BS
Her (29) - STBXWW
Dday - 10/25/2013
Married - 7/2007
Been Together - 9/2003

Posts: 83 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest
DazedWI
♂ Member
Member # 41432
Default  Posted: 11:41 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Stupid phone double posting

[This message edited by DazedWI at 11:42 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


ME (29) - BS
Her (29) - STBXWW
Dday - 10/25/2013
Married - 7/2007
Been Together - 9/2003

Posts: 83 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Midwest
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So what is it that made it possible for our WWs to have affairs?

I think I am different than many in that my FWW admitted that the start of her first LTA was entitlement. She felt she deserved to be happy and she flirted and initiated the relationship with the OM. She wanted to have a "fling". She laughed at jokes she thought were stupid, made a point of seeking him out and paying attention.

Now, there were EA's and ONSs before this that I learned of after dday, but her initial "affair" was an intentional fling with this coworker that did not end until a boss at a new job pursued her and offered a "better" (richer, more powerful, less needy) partner.

Where did all this come from? This was how FWW's Mother led her life.

ETA: re attractivness
FWW's last OM was older than her by years, not in the best health, not fit at all, has herpes, and looks like a toad. Still, she fantasized being M'd to him, or leaving me to be his mistress.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:47 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
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