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User Topic: How do you learn to give and recieve love differently?
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:48 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I desire to love a woman in a way that she is receptive too...I am not sure how to do that with my wife. I don't think she knows how to do that with me. But I, after many IC sessions, apparently was unhealthy enough to be okay with this situation for years.

I know we are both trying to learn....but, at times, I feel as though we are faking it.

My gut is active.....don't believe she is having another A. I believe NC is still in place.

When I show love to my wife....its almost as if it scares her.

I am trying to modify that...to speak her love language softer.....I try to engage her first on topics that wind up on SI....but I stumble regularly, resulting her discomfort so I stop. At times I throw caution to the wind, be vulnerable in a healthy way....express myself honestly and completely. This could be to tell her I love her or to tell her I am struggling bouncing my eyes or to tell her what my personal journey is looking like......this is when I scare her, cause her to retreat. I get discouraged....I pray for courage....and I try again.....thinking I am doing it in a different way (weekend without SI or reading books or A discussion.....not pressing her to start IC again..... nonsexual physical contact for a week, expressing my sexual desires lightly and just occasionally but not forcing them on her).

When I get really discouraged...I actively work on my boundaries.....God help me, I still notice other women in not-healthy ways. I think about how they would appreciate flowers, the sincere question and caring how they feel I would show them, the texts just to say hi.....you know, the kind of stuff my wife and her AP did! Yes....I know how UNHEALTHY this is.....that is one reason I am posting so much right now. I am stumbling hard today.

I am working on pride right now....see it sneaking in to my actions I spoke of in the preceding paragraph....even wonder if my posting so much is me seeking to have my ego stroked. I have included several of my weaknesss in this post and others tonight to keep-it-real....I am hurting and broken.....not much to feed my ego from my posts tonight.

This is what I am talking about....I want to show my wife love, but I feel like I am still seeking to be loved.

Was I this unhealthy pre-A? Am I in need of not just healthy connection but unhealthy external validation? Am I any different than a WS, minus the actual act of adultery? I was hoping to be different....not better...but different. If my wife and I share the same weaknesss....external validation for instance.....how can we help each other grow....neither of us know a better way, right?

When I read about nurturing a healthy marriage and I visit with my wife on what I am reading....she agrees with what I present to her, agrees many of my actions feel healthy to her...they just scare her.

I feel like an ogre at times......God help me, I do.


I selfishly wonder what it would be like to be with a woman that truly loved me. As I visit with my wife I am starting to get the idea that I have never really felt the true love of a woman in my M. That is painful to read, write...but trust me, it is painful to experience.

This past 15 months have been painful. I appreciate pain is how we grow. But this past 15 months I have learned that my wife sought out and slept with another man, that my wife has not been excited to see me for years, that my wife was extremely skilled at keeping me at a safe distance from her and my own short-comings allowed me to be fine with this, that 2 years into our M she was crying to her sister that she was not happy in her M to me, never expressed discontent to me (at least not in ways I understood it) but choose to have children with me 5 and 8 years after that confession to her sister, told me the problem with our marriage is that she Married Her Best friend, the realization that she had an EA with a man while we were engaged.......

Just has me questioning what is real and what is fake here.

Its like I stopped at a stop light next to another car....he starts to move forward but I cant tell if he is moving or I am....so I press on my brake harder and I look to the building across the way from me.....it, TOO, is moving. Very disorienting. God is helping me....I know we have to be careful about religion....but He is the motivation behind the change that is occurring in me. If I were to use any other source for motivation....the results would be poor.

Why am I in such pain as I piece together the new pieces to the puzzle that is our marriage?

In a way, I am not surprised my wife was slow to repent from her affair, slow to find remorse, slow to share her journey back to our M with me. I see how she failed to bond to this M. I also understand she was blind to some of what influenced her both in our M and with her decision to commit adultery. So I don't condemn her for her actions....several of my M-destroying actions were influenced by forces hidden within me!

Perhaps this whole RA thing is my selfish nature resisting change...thinking if I could find a different woman I might NOT have to work so hard? Is this not similar to the path a WS takes to adultery? Was it just a matter of time before I chose adultery? Is the compassion I am seeking for my wife causing me to contemplate things that I should not be contemplating?

Maybe time to do what Tushnurse has told me to do before....unplug and road-trip to nature!


yeah....pretty off day here. Not trigger off....just new-reality off. KWIM?

No wisdom here....more of a release of frustration. Thanks to those who waded this far into this swamp of a post........

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 8:56 PM, November 21st (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 9:07 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do you think you'd get better responses if you posted this in the Reconciliation forum?


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9622 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 9:10 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks naturegirl.....thought it more of a vent, but maybe you are right.


To tell you the truth...my posts tonight are more rambling than usual. I think I kinda hope they cycle down and disappear....but then I kinda hope for some support too.

Pretty not-right feeling tonight.

Thanks for your suggestion...as I read my original post I probably should have put it in R forum....just lack the desire to move it. Yeah, kinda lazy and feeling sorry for myself tonight too......bear with me.

Peace be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 9:11 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I have any answers to give you, I would! Sadly, my path was not one that led to R.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9622 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
naivewife
♀ Member
Member # 38375
Default  Posted: 9:35 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm sorry you're struggling tonight Blakesteele. It's hard to see someone who is usually so strong and supportive go through moments like this, when I realize there is no way to help. All I can say is I can relate to the way you feel, I've been there, questioning everything about our marriage, true love, and feeling positively hopeless. And then something happens. I rage, WH does or says something "right", or I stumble across the necessary wisdom to unlock whatever it was inside me, and somehow I manage to bounce back to an even stronger place than I was prior. The rollercoaster. I hope you find yourself climbing back up very quickly, and the right path for you becomes more clear.


D-day #1 - 1/23/13
false R, then...
D-day #2 - 3/26/13
I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons. - Hippocratic Oath

Posts: 342 | Registered: Feb 2013
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 10:36 PM, November 21st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks naturegirl....I am sorry for your pain but am glad you are finding your way through this. I only found a path through it when I accepted the facts that my original M died at the hands of my wife as she chose adultery AND that R may not happen for us. Once I made peace and owned these scary but real facts I started to move through the pain. I have two elementary aged girls myself.....they were not enough of a factor to stop my wife from leaving our M but they are a factor in my decisions now. I know they were also a concern for you....and that just because I have children with my wife, that singular fact does not guarantee a M will R after adultery. I don't know my future but thank you for your support right now.

Niavewife....always good to hear from you. I am sorry to show my weakness so profoundly. I know it has the potential to rattle I other SI members....and am sorry for that. I just saw LA44 struggling a bit tonight....I felt helpless to help her.

BUT, you did help me. I am familiar enough with this pattern to recognize many times a strong benchmark of growth could be near me.

Naturegirl reminder me that my M may not survive this.....and it will still be okay.

So thank you both for chiming in. I look forward when I can return the favor you both bestowed on me tonight.

God be with us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
headdesk
♀ Member
Member # 40787
Default  Posted: 2:53 PM, November 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gently, but is it possible that your wife isn't engaging in the marriage because she isn't 'into' it? Is there a possibility that she's remaining in it for reasons like; financial, not wanting to be the 'bad guy' and call it quits, religious?

I think that ultimately is what you need to figure out first. Best wishes.


Me: 39
WH: 42
DDay:Sep 19 2013 (only TT of EA)
Oct 4th 2013 revealed PA through snooping.
Marred 16 years, together for 20. Looking to R at this time. We have awesome kids (12/14).

Posts: 273 | Registered: Sep 2013
Skan
♀ Member
Member # 35812
Default  Posted: 3:51 PM, November 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I’m not sure why you seem to think that seeking to be loved is a bad thing. We are social creatures we seek connection and companionship. That seeking of companionship and connection is quite often, IMO, what keeps us from killing each other if you know what I mean. We also seek to love as a part of that social connection. I see it as a yin/yang sort of thing. To love and to be loved is balance for us. When we try too hard to weight that balance on one side or another, is when we can get in trouble. It seems to me that you are being mindful of keeping that balance and of seeking a healthy balance.

When I read about nurturing a healthy marriage and I visit with my wife on what I am reading....she agrees with what I present to her, agrees many of my actions feel healthy to her...they just scare her.

Is it a possibility that your WW is scared because she doesn’t truly want to be intimate with you? That she prefers to keep a distance between the two of you? If this is true, then the more intimacy that you offer, the further away she will pull back. And if/when you back off, the closer she may come. That’s not a healthy dynamic for you either. If she is unwilling or incapable of showing you love and accepting love from you, then you have a hard choice to make to keep yourself healthy. You may not be able to show her love in a way that she can be comfortable with she may need a hands-off sort of love. How would that sit with your needs?

I also don’t think that it’s unnatural that you wonder what it would be like to be with someone who would equally give you love and receive your love. I think that is the natural response of a BS who is trying, desperately, to process what’s happened, why, and where things are likely to go. My FWH is showing me great love verbally, sexually, and by all of those little unconscious signals that add up to a whole. I’m showing him the same. Yet I have to admit that I do wonder sometimes, what it would be like to be with someone that didn’t occasionally trigger me, to someone with whom I didn’t feel the need to check computers, phones, etc. That mythical clean start, if you will. I think that this is a natural and healthy in many ways. It serves to remind us that our staying is a choice that we make. It reinforces that we must make that choice, to stay or to go, to be faithful or unfaithful, to being able to commit to a healthy relationship or not, or perhaps to re-examine why we are here and if it’s healthy for us, singly or as a pair. Much better to do that self-examination than rug sweep, I think.

Who knows? Certainly not me. Guess I’m rambling too. Here’s to all of us rambling together!


Imagine a ship trying to set sail while towing an anchor. Cutting free is not a gift to the anchor. You must release that burden, not because the anchor is worthy, but because the ship is.

D-Day, June 10, 2012



Posts: 4784 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: So California
LetMeRollIt
♂ Member
Member # 41189
Default  Posted: 4:36 PM, November 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is something I've been wondering about, and have not come up with anything.

I will say you post made me realize my current habit of talking to single women like I am a single man, is not healthy, and shows I am not committing to R. Ugh.

I


D day- June 30, 2013
Me - BS
Married 15 years
5 year old child
Attempting R as of Oct. 1 2013

"Cry, and let your soul be cleansed of a love that turned to carnage." - Christy Brown


Posts: 99 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
ILINIA
♀ Member
Member # 39836
Default  Posted: 4:40 PM, November 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I guess if we are rambling, I'm going to join in ....

Your initial post reminded of my recent conversation in IC. I was trying to explain why I think I am in the rage stage. Here were my answers to her:

First-I was in a marriage for 10 years where I loved him with my whole heart unconditionally, I have now realized that the depth of that love was one way.

Second- I want to be in a relationship where I love the whole man in his entirety. Since the A, I have not been able to define my love for him. Can he even be that guy or has A broken the connection in my heart?

Third-Shouldn't I want to be in a relationship where I am loved in my entirety? Don't I deserve that? So what I am doing now, is that delaying my happiness because I am not supposed to be here or is this slowly laying the foundation?

This is why I am mad, because I don't have any answers only an ugly past that I cannot accept...

Thanks for letting me ramble....


Entering R slowly and cautiously...

Posts: 456 | Registered: Jul 2013
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:04 PM, November 22nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Good comments by all.

You ask some tough questions.

I appreciate that others ramble here too.

I agree we all have a need and desire to both love and be loved. I see FOO issues as fucking with that natural need pretty hard. Our hearts sooo desire this connection but our brains observe a traumatic experience that says "Whoa!!! Are you crazy?!?! Don't you remember how much hurt this action of connecting hurts?!?!? Stop!!!"

I think that is why my wife's affair felt so comfortable.....it was total escape from her mind.....like a hard override. Her heart was free of her FOO bondage.

Sadly....this is my assumption. Have not had this specific of a conversation with my wife .

Peace to us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
brokensmile322
♀ Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 2:15 AM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

2x4…. Proceed with caution!

**sigh, Blakesteele.

This post actually made me sad for you. You are trying so hard. Aren't you exhausted yet?

A few things I notice in this post…

I don't 'think' she knows how to do that with me.

.its 'almost as if it scares' her

but I stumble regularly, resulting 'her discomfort' so I stop.

At times I throw caution to the wind...this is 'when I scare her', cause her to retreat

I 'think' that is why my wife's affair felt so comfortable.....it was total escape from her mind.....like a hard override. Her heart was free of her FOO bondage.

Sadly....this is 'my assumption'. Have not had this specific of a conversation with my wife

^^There are a lot of assumptions, inferences and educated guesses going on here.

Have you not asked her? Have you danced around it? Are you afraid what she will say? Or does she just not answer you when you ask? Is she avoiding your questions so she doesn't have to answer? Or are you avoiding the questions so you don't have to hear an answer you don't want to hear?


I desire to love a woman in a way that she is receptive too.

I still notice other women in not-healthy ways. I think about how they would appreciate flowers, the sincere question and caring how they feel I would show them, the texts just to say hi…..

I want to show my wife love, but I feel like I am still seeking to be loved.

I selfishly wonder what it would be like to be with a woman that truly loved me.

thinking if I could find a different woman I might NOT have to work so hard?

There is nothing wrong with YOU, Blakesteele. You are human. You want to be loved. You want to love. You are trying to love, so very hard, but you are being rebuffed. There is nothing wrong with you.

Your looking at other women and wondering….that does not make you a wayward. It is a sign that says "danger, danger". It may be the thoughts that a wayward has as well, but the difference is that you are not choosing to go down that path. You are TRYING to work on this with your wife. You are trying so hard to say, "Me, me, me…my needs are not being met. I realize I am not meeting yours either, but I will try harder to meet yours. Please let me." This is way different than wayward thinking. Stop comparing yourself.

What is your wife saying to you? Is she trying as hard?

Stop making excuses for her. We all have FOO, some worse than others, but what exactly IS she doing?

If she has told you that she admitted to her sister that she was not happy and she told you that she married her best friend, does she still feel this way? Have you asked her?

She had an EA with someone while you were engaged…WHY? Has she answered that in an honest way?

Has SHE told you why she was able to accept love from her AP, to text just to say hi to him? Why? You make an assumption as to why she was able to do this. Has she actually told you why?


When *I* show love to my wife

*I *am trying to modify that...to speak her love language softer

*I* try to engage her

resulting her discomfort so* I* stop

*I *throw caution to the wind, be vulnerable in a healthy way

*I *pray for courage….and* I *try again..

When I get really discouraged..*.I* actively work on my boundaries.

*I* am working on pride right now.

When* I *read

^^There is a lot of YOU doing in this. Gently, Blake, what is she doing? You don't have to answer for me….but answer for you, on your own, off this post, by yourself if needed.

Your desire to be loved and to love someone does not make you a bad person or even a prideful one. This is a basic human need. If your WW is not working as hard to try to meet your needs, you are not in R. You can try as hard as you can, you can be patient until you burst, but if she is doing nothing, it is all for naught.

If she wants you and your family and your marriage, she should be trying. FOO is not a reason not to try and be intimate with you physically or mentally, especially since she has shown that she is capable of going through the motions with AP. So if she is not, what IS her motivation for staying in this M?

I am sorry you are struggling right now. And I am sorry if my words are too harsh. It is meant with the best intentions. Peace, my friend. You are on your way!


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jun 2012
solus sto
♀ Member
Member # 30989
Default  Posted: 6:54 AM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am starting to get the idea that I have never really felt the true love of a woman in my M

I learned---and it took me three decades--that there simply is not a way to change this, without leaving the marriage. I hope that your wife faces her fears before this becomes necessary for you.

Your wife has chosen not to love you. She had chosen to put you in "best friend" position, in her mind---while, of course, treating you in ways no one would ever treat a friend.

My husband did this, as well. He also did the huge rewrite your wife has done--convincing himself and, worse, telling others of his profound dissatisfaction with me (really, himself, though he will likely never possess the maturity or insight to see this, as he chases one unicorn after another).

To my face, he was a friend. Not a husband. Not a lover. Ever, really, but in a very pronounced way from the time our youngest was born. That was 15 years before he moved out---but the "friendship," which was, behind my back, as hateful as it could possibly be, he faked well, and for a long time. (He really did believe that he could do this, push me away as his partner, then "be best friends." He was stunned when I told him he would never be a friend of mine.)

That LONG TIME robbed me of much of my adult life. It took away my ability, quite possibly, to ever know the love of a man. It stole from me more than I can begin to articulate.

My point is this, Blake: you can't make her love you. If she doesn't---if genuine love and intimacy frighten her and she continues to run (something you CANNOT control)--she doesn't.

You didn't create this. You are not "wayward" in longing to be loved. You are human.

I suspect you're not feeling it because it's not THERE.

What is your WIFE doing to address this? Does SHE want to be in a loving, emotionally intimate relationship with you?

It's NOT about your deficiencies. It's not about your health or unhealthiness. It's about her aversion to emotional intimacy and inability to love.

ETA: FOO can do a lot to fuck us up. But it doesn't buy an indulgence. While past experiences certainly can influence us, it's our responsibility as adults to reframe our experiences and live in a way that does not cause harm to ourselves and others. Choosing to let you twist in the wind rather than face herself is eminently selfish and damaging. Living with a person willing to do so is ...soul-crushing.

It hurts to watch you trying so hard, and getting nowhere, Blake. Probably because I know how the story ends.

What's your wife doing to change the ending? More to the point, are you okay, living with her just the way she is, right now? Because you can't change another person.

[This message edited by solus sto at 7:10 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]


BS-me, 52
WH (Trac-fone), 52, PD
2 kids-DD25, DS18
multiple d-days
DIVORCING
Alone, most strangely, I live on~Rupert Brooke

Posts: 8656 | Registered: Jan 2011 | From: midwest
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hello Brokensmile322....sorry for leaving you hanging...this post dropped off my radar screen.

Thank you for your continued concern and support.

Assumptions and inferences....the quiet killer of relationships. I am committed to dispelling this. Our MC suggested when this occurs we are to check up and confirm or deny them. My primary way to do this is to ask questions to my wife. Another way I do this is to state my assumption...then ask for a 1-10 scale....10 being spot on, 1 being not even close. It is working.

Am I afraid? To be sure, I was afraid pre-A to engage my wife so boldly and directly. Abandonment fears dictated that I NOT engage for fear of my ASSUMPTION that if I actually requested something of my wife she would leave me. Well, the affair confirmed at least two things loud and clear for me. 1. My wife is quite capable of choosing to leave me. 2. I have zero control over that....so all that fear and me avoiding doing what a man should do was all in vain....so much time and effort wasted.

On the flip side of that....my wife was doing similar actions....assuming what was bothering her within our M was hers to work out...she did not engage me (at least engage me in ways I heard, but many times no choice to engage was made) either. It is a wonder we made it 15 years...really it is.

Your looking at other women and wondering….that does not make you a wayward. It is a sign that says "danger, danger". It may be the thoughts that a wayward has as well, but the difference is that you are not choosing to go down that path. You are TRYING to work on this with your wife. You are trying so hard to say, "Me, me, me…my needs are not being met. I realize I am not meeting yours either, but I will try harder to meet yours. Please let me." This is way different than wayward thinking. Stop comparing yourself.

Well sumarized. DANGER DANGER is absolutely how I feel. I agree I am bringing my needs to my wife openly and honestly and without much of a demand associated with them. But for me, even to ask anything of my wife feels like a demand from me. Each time I do it it feels better. Even when she denies my request I am surprisingly okay with it. I put my needs out there....I have asked my wife how it makes her feel. She says it scares her and intimates her. I don't wish to do that, but also don't want to repeat the pattern I saw in my wife....NOT expressing that she has needs, only to be blind to the temptation that adultery is and choose it. I have thought about modifying that so as not to scare her...but fear is a real part of life. I don't think I am doing her or our M any favors by acting like this isnt a fear-full situation. It is unbelieveably scary!!!! I pray for courage every day, multiple times a day to have the ability to choose to do the hard work instead of choose the easy, immediate gratification route that leads to adultery.

I appreciate you being kind to me...saying that it is only natural to desire what I desire and to look at other women. I get that and agree their is some of that. But my thoughts are not so pure or danty. I really have ugly impulses...I have always had light fantasies about other women (God help me, I have)...but since my wifes A its ALMOST as if they are viable, healthy options! My MIND knows they are not...but my heart is HURTING SOOOO MUCH!!

The whole admission to her sister 2 years into our M thing? My wife has said that was how she felt then...it is not how she felt now, not how she felt when we decided to have children (7 years into our M). I still feel like a fool for not feeling or seeing this issue within our M 2 years into it....I realize my wife is very good at keeping herself walled off, but still think I should have been more alert. Of course, my FOO fears were at play too. I am working on this issue of her relationship with her sister....Her sisters advice then was basically the same advice given to her during her A. That is....put those feelings on a shelf (hide them), concentrate on your M. In other words, your husband doesn't need to know about this....this is for you to work out....you can do this on your own, without being vulnerable or admitting needs (weakness). Think there might be some shared FOO issues at play here? I feel as if both my wife and her sister played me as a fool....certainly share an unhealthy view of what M is. I get WHY this is....it is the same reasons my view of M was unhealthy....because we come from homes where the M was unhealthy. My wife and her sister witnessed for YEARS what it meant to admit you had feelings and needs and be courageous enough to show those to your spouse. When you did that you got ridiculed and hurt! My role models showed me that M is good, until that time in which it isnt. When that happens a M dissappears almost instantly....no fighting between my mom and dad....to my 12 year old self they were happy, then Dad disappeared.

The whole EA while we were engaged? My wife and I don't share the same view of this occurence. The facts are it was 1. a relationship with another man. 2. it was secret. 3. I discovered it. 4. I ended it via an email to this other man. To my knowledge this relationship ended the same way my wife A ended....me contacting the OM, and him dumping my wife.

Pre-A I did not consider my wife to be unfaithful with this first man. Post-A, having learned about EA and what it entails, I do believe that is what it was. Again, why didn't I see the flag it was?!?!? My wife feels it wasnt an EA because it was short in duration and she really didn't share anything deeply personal with him. I did not see all of the communication with him...but the emails I did see spoke to how he knew "she was special" that she was "different" that he loved her "soul" and valued their "friendship". Her sister knows this man (16 years her senior) and says he is a player. He was a national speaker that toured colleges and retreats...not a well known speaker, but that is how they met originally. The emails I discovered were after that real life relationship happened....which consisted of holding hands as they walked nature trails during a 2 week college retreat that he helped run. My wife says that is all the relationship was...no kissing, no petting, no making out. So since we disagree on the nature of this relationship with this OM, she has not seen the need to explain why this was an acceptable choice of action on her part....she believed she did nothing wrong and was going to end it on her own. Again, this is what she said about this recent A....so I see some similarities.

I contend these "patterns" are what set my wife on the path to adultery. They were in place before we met and continued to exist in our M. This is why it is regularly written that an affair has nothing to do with a BS....we are collateral damage. I just wish I could have seen the explosives under her clothes before they were detonated. KWIM? Does she have a strong enough desire to change? Good question. I obviously think so right now...

but you are being rebuffed

Am I? Perhaps I am. I don't wish for us to fake any of this.....we need to be real. I am asking for radical honesty from my wife. I believe I am getting that. How do I determine whether to stay or D? Good questions...and ones that I have thought about. Here is where I am at.

"I am the biggest problem to my marriage." It is true we can only change ourselves. Until I can get to the D question I am committed to exhausting all of the problems that I can directly change. Once I reach that end, I am committed to my M to my wife. As I work on myself I am shocked at some of my blindness! Just like I wonder how I missed my wifes feelings 2 years into our M, I wonder how for 30 years I missed parts of myself?!?!

My wife has said for years she felt like I loved her more than she loved me. That statement has new meaning to us now. So does the term "love". Love is a choice, an action to me now. It was strictly a feeling before. For the record there was a time when I could see some truth to this statement of me loving my wife more than she loved me. I think differntly now. I see how, in several ways, my actions throughout my M to my wife were NOT loving. Overall...were my actions more loving to my wife then hers were to me? I don't know....my filter is seriously jacked with.

The affair my wife had demonstrates that I was more committed to our M than my wife was...and committment is a choice....but pre-A what did that committment look like in me? Not full on adultery, but I DID use porn.

I believe this is why BS are encouraged to do their own journey early on....to distance from your WS until such a time when they decide to once again committ to the M....and really committ, not the "well, we have kids so I better stay married" type of committment. I believe this is why the emphasis is put on the fWS to help the BS heal from their affair PLUS committ to the M.

If your WW is not working as hard to try to meet your needs, you are not in R.

This is what I spoke of earlier...by ME being the biggest problem within my M. What I am attempting to do is put out my needs and desires....let her decide if she can or can't meet them....express that decision back to me...and then I can truthfully decide if our M will survive.

How much EASIER would it be to do what all WS be? That is to get some of their needs that are easily met inside the M, and those that cause discomfort...well, simply find other people to fill those needs.

Thank you for the 2x4's as well as the words of support. I appreciate the opportunity to further my thinking.

God is with us all....he understands this trial....it is not unique to me and it is as old as time.

But it is still painful and still tough.

Thanks for checking in.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:28 AM, November 26th (Tuesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 9:55 AM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi solus sto.

Been a while since I have seen you on here. I see that you are divorcing now...so perhaps you have not been on the R forum for a bit, that is why I have not seen you?

I appreciate you have decided to end your M. I know you put much work into it and came up with the conclusion that your M was too far gone to R. I am open to that being my conclusion as well....for much of what you wrote in your response to me.

Fear is a part of both my wife and I. It was programed in strongly as children...and continues to influence us. I pray every day for courage to face my fears and that my wife faces her fears. Even if that courage leads either of us to the conclusion that we can not make our M work. I have accepted that this is a strong trial, perhaps the strongest trial, a M can go through. I know the A was not a deal breaker for me....but the soup that has been made since my DD could be toxic to our M. Toxic because of the trickle truthing, the fog, the discovery of new aspects of blakesteele that I was not conscious of, my wife admitting she has needs and desires, the realization that our M pre-A had issues neither of us wanted to face.....probably a lot of the same journey you are on....right?

The "best friend" thing? Most every marriage book I have read, most relationship talk shows I listen to...they all speak to a successful heatlhy marriage starts from a friendship and is sustained via that friendship. So I don't think being friends is the death blow to a M. However, their is a component of being friends that is NOT passionate, not erotic, not stimulating.

The faking well and for a long time? Yeah, I kinda get that too...see above reference to pre-M EA, 2 years in, concluding with a full on PA recently. My wifes ability to fake things is impressive....and unnerving.

Has my wife robbed me from ever knowing the "love" of a woman? That seems pretty stark...but I see your point. For the record I beleive my wife felt "Ah, so this is what I have been missing" when she was in "love" with her AP. So I get concerned about my motives to anything but committment to my M. I sincerely don't want to fool myself that there is some mystical girl out there who would instantly meet all my needs WITHOUT me having to learn how to express them maturely. To my knowledge my wife never expressed anything more to her AP then she did with me. She felt "comfortable and easy" while with him...but that speaks more to her being able to keep even more of herself hidden from him, not share more of herself with him.
It fit very well into her life's coping mechanisms. Just like a instant A would fit in nicely with MY coping mechanisms....having a woman tell me I was all that, that she wishes we could be together more, that our kids could play together and we could have a big family, that she would never leave me, etc... You know, the type of stuff we did when we first dated our spouses.
KWIM?


Thanks to 12 months of IC I fully grasp that I cannot make my wife love me. My wifes fears of intimacy and being vulnerable are hers to work through. I was simply trying to find a way to make my interaction with her less scary...but that is not doing us any favors. So I am abandoning that mode of operation. I will still be tactful, but direct about my needs and desires.


I also know I didn't create this monster...it was spawned by my wife and her AP in the noticeable absence of my presence--physically I wasn't there, mentally I was not a thought in my wifes mind either.

My concern about "wayward thinking" comes from my needs and desires. I know I am human and I have needs....I also know human nature is naturally selfish. I have seen parts of me that are very immature.

I don't pray for patience anymore....an elderly lady in a restaurant approached my table just after I finished a prayer for patience and said "You know, I use to pray for patience...but God just kept sending me trials. So I stopped praying for patience." This was at 5:30 am, she and her husband were the only other patrons in the cafe. It was from that moment on I quit praying for patience.

I still lack patience....I am impatient with the state of my M, I am impatient with myself, I am impatient with my wife.

"God, please put one hand on my shoulder...and your other over my mouth." is how I pray when I am in need to control my strong tongue!

You are right....my feeling is "not there" right now.

I am learning that my feelings change often and rapidly. I have seen my wifes feelings change from one of "I can't wait to be with "AP"" to one of "I dispise the very sight of him".

Until such a time when my feelings subside and my mind and heart come together to determine on what is factual within my marital relationship...I am committed to my M.

Does my wife want to be in a loving, emotionally intimate relationship with me? Good question. I have asked her this question directly and her answer is yes. I have asked myself this question. My answer is yes. This answer could change...but right now, without assumptions, feelings or inferences...the answer is yes.

Thank you for your commment. I had let this post slip away....just checked it today.

Peace to us all.


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
brokensmile322
♀ Member
Member # 35758
Default  Posted: 1:55 PM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi Blake,

Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I really did not expect you to answer…my questions were more asked to get you to think.

I admire your resolve and I admire your desire to exhaust all possibilities before giving up. This is a quality I think a lot of people don't possess. However, my concern was that you are 'doing' a lot to try to fix yourself and change your M. You don't mention much what your wife is doing or has done to try…and I suspect this is by design. And I can appreciate that as well. I know you choose to discuss the journey you are on because that is the journey you can control.

However, I caution you not to get lost in the diagnosis and the process of fixing. To me, it is an easy place to get stuck because in a way it is safe. It can keep you from giving or receiving full blown intimacy.

M is an interaction. It requires a back and forth relationship to keep it moving otherwise it becomes stagnant.

I hope and pray your wife is working as hard on her FOO as you are. I hope she is at the very least in IC to help her sort through it. And I pray that you keep on keeping on until you finally know for sure what your future holds for you and your family.

Peace!


Me BS 42 Him WS 44
OW Coworker DDay April 7, 2012
EA on a slippery slope...

When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves. ~Viktor Frankl

"When you are happy, you can forgive a great deal."


Posts: 1466 | Registered: Jun 2012
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 2:37 PM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hate responding on SI via smart phones....just lost my response due to incoming call....suck!!!!!

Thanks brokensmile....you are one of my original brat pack members. Child of 80's here....so I am referring to The Breakfast Club era brat pack.

Your words of caution are not lost on me. My recently revealed KISA and abandonment fear both warrant this caution.

I have experienced good growth over the past year, am confident I will D my wife should she chose adultery again, am committed to intentional living, seeking to fulfill my wife's needs and have mine filled by her.

BUT, I realize I have had three decades of living very NOT like this.

My post, many times, show a thoughtful caring man....which IS a part of me. I am shocked to find out just how selfish I am...I am trying to show that more on SI....ties into the intentional way I am choosing to live. When under extreme duress I have successfully avoided my selfish coping mechanisms....not completely, but pretty darn good. It is tempting to go to those coping mechs....particularly when I am tired. In those times I am finding comfort in just "being still".

I don't know exactly what my wife is thinking, she has proven to be quite skilled at deception....but I am improving on my skills and can sense a thought or mood change in her now that would have been lost on me before. When I can't tell what she is meaning, I ask her straight out to clarify.

I don't put much of her journey on here....she is a mber, has posted a few times, but she is not an active member.

Counselor says I am an external processor and my wife is am internal processor...has encouraged us to continue processing but try and do more of the others types of processing. I noticed when I post about my wife it tempts me to judge. Gods job is to judge, it is our job to be obidient.

My spiritual growth has been good too. I have wondered why my trials included adultery...the only sin that God accepts as grounds for the dissolution of a M and fracturing a family: I believe it must be that I needed a big brick to my head! Trials are not punishment....they are meant to strengthen us, break us off a bad path and give us a chance to get on the narrow healthy path.

My path was wide and wandering before this experience. I was not in pain but I was empty.

6 months that followed DD were horrific....the stuff I read, the words that came our of my wife's mouth, the rage that poured out of me....it was dreadful. But it was not punishment....it enabled me to grow.

If I had thrown in the towel then....I would be with another woman now.....enjoying the "freedom" I thought I found. I am discovering real freedom has boundaries. A life without boundaries is anarchy....chaos really. I would have been doomed to repeat unhealthy cycles.

Too much growth, too much pain to throw in the towel with so much individual work on me left undone.

Keep the support coming. I get head strong, black and white thinking....good to have those who care enough to say what you say to me.

Thanks, too, for the prayers.

I have come to the conclusion that I was one of those people that needed to have been so broken that I lost all man-made hope....and sought Him to lead me. I am grateful for his grace and mercy. Redemption for some only comes after this "hopeless" state is arrived at.

Mercy on us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 2:49 PM, November 26th (Tuesday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3635 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Topic Posts: 17

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