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User Topic: Roadbump
SerJR
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Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Jrazz)))

Crazz's behaviour was not right. I may be off the mark... but I'm wondering if there is something deeper which is leading to this? Sometimes, when something is eating away at us menz, we can go into "task-mode", where we focus exclusively on tasks and sometimes miss the bigger picture. Sometimes we do it because we feel like it's a way to contribute to and help out the family. Sometimes we do it because something is bothering us and it provides what we see as a constructive outlet (not realising it's such a distraction).

I wonder if there is something stressing him and he maybe doesn't even know what it is, doesn't know how to deal with it, or maybe is even afraid of bringing it up? And when you confronted him, maybe that put him on the defensive?

Communication is such a terribly difficult thing, even in the best relationships. One partner says one thing, and the other partner hears what they are afraid to hear. The best tip I can give for communicating is to take a minute after each partner speaks to try to understand what they are saying (and not what you are hearing), and to ask "what do you mean by that" to try to get to the heart of the issue. Try to focus on the "I feel" statements to make things sound less accusatory to his ears and to keep emotions from escalating. The same applies to him.

Now, if he is unwilling to communicate and insists on this type of control he is setting up for a no-win situation. If the two of you are going to have a good relationship, then he has to step up to the plate and meet the true needs of the family. If he's not willing to do this, then you have to evaluate what's important to you.


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17093 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 12:47 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks all. I can feel your hugs, DS.

k9 - You're absolutely right. It's just so complicated... not that anyone else's situation isn't.

As if scripted, last night at 10:30pm he asks me what's wrong and I break down. Angry tears and incredulous. He tries to touch my knee. I hit the ceiling, and he blames me for pushing him away when he tries to comfort me. I remind him that not only was the day hard but his response sent me spiraling. He apologizes and says he'll work harder not to be insensitive.

It's the worst kind of Catch 22, because he's NOT an intentional asshole. There is not an atom in his body equipped for empathy, so all of this confuses him and makes him retreat. It's so confusing, because I know that he is doing everything he can sometimes, which is more that I can say for a lot of people.

I just can't draw the line between what's not enough, and what's my being emotional high maintenance. I have a hard time picturing any partner holding me when I cry over a trigger, or trying to "fix" my hurt. This maaaaaaay stem back to FOO issues with my mother.

A big reason I continue to try is fear. Fear of loneliness. Fear of exposing DD to a future step mother or father who does anything less than adore her. Fear of when FWH's awful father and sister will try to turn DD against me (they did it with him for years - it's not paranoia, it's their NPD BPII MO)

So I look at the bird in the hand. He doesn't do drugs. He's home for dinner. He'll give me a back or foot rub anytime I ask. Most days it seems like the safest option.

I'm not saying these are GOOD reasons or the RIGHT reasons. They're just the ones in place that tether me here.


SerJR - Well of COURSE there's something deeper which is leading to this. It's a lifetime of being in an anxious state that has lead to impatience being his go-to or "comfort" zone. He's an ACOA and he only knows how to be in a panic and feel unworthy. He's been in counseling to combat his conflict avoidance and anger issues, but I have a sinking feeling that his IC is focusing on his work life, not his home. He doesn't talk to me about his sessions anymore, and that avoidance is enough of a tell.

The best tip I can give for communicating is to take a minute after each partner speaks to try to understand what they are saying (and not what you are hearing), and to ask "what do you mean by that" to try to get to the heart of the issue. Try to focus on the "I feel" statements to make things sound less accusatory to his ears and to keep emotions from escalating. The same applies to him.

So very true, and we CAN get to that space a lot of the time, but it comes after a day of sobbing and/or holding it together for DD and I'm exhausted at what it takes for him to open up.

Like I said, at 10:30pm last night it was all apologies and hugs and communication. He twice said "why bother telling you what I think - you're just going to get mad." which is communication POISON. This is followed by me doing the "safe space" exercise, and him telling me that he has been really anxious about the 60" TV resting on the floor and just wanted to get the project done, but wanted to make me "happy" by going to the pumpkin patch too so he tried to squeeze it all in.

I can't tell you how exhausting it is that he will not tell me what is going on with him and then just be angry and resentful of me when he doesn't get his way.

So yeah, he communicated. Clearly. After hours of torture. As per usual.

Hoovering? Spin cycle? I don't know what it is but I'm just really tired.


Thank you all so very much for taking the time and listening.

I do feel better today, and spending time in the presence of sweet DD does remind me that this is far from the end of the world. And FWH made DD and himself breakfast. So there's that. (I'm sure he doesn't want to upset me by making something I won't eat so he just skipped it.)

[This message edited by Jrazz at 12:48 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
authenticnow
♀ Moderator
Member # 16024
Default  Posted: 12:59 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((((Jrazz))))))

I didn't respond to this earlier because I didn't have the words. I'm glad you're feeling better today. I hope he finds a way to be consistent in his actions. I know how much you want this to work.


Take up your space (and do it well).

"That's the thing about pain, it demands to be felt."


Posts: 34567 | Registered: Sep 2007
ThoughtIKnewYa
♀ Member
Member # 18449
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((Jrazz)))

I'm sorry you had a really rough day. I can relate. In the early days of our R, I also thought things like:

There is not an atom in his body equipped for empathy, so all of this confuses him and makes him retreat.
With a TREMENDOUS amount of work, we realized that H had been raised by an NPD mother. She had taught him that feelings were equal to weakness. He was very emotional as a child, so I'm thinking he decided that he had to hide his true self in order to be acceptable to his mom. Of course, this applied to ALL of his life and not just his relationship with his mom. Also, Ser is right about men being task oriented, he may be doing all that he KNOWS to do, right now. I'm thinking there's still hope for him and that he "just" has "fleas" (learned behaviors that are probably dysfunctional) from being raised in an NPD family.

I hope today is a much better day for you.

ETA: In the early days of this, Waywardson couldn't even name the emotions he was feeling. I had to help him, kind-of guide him toward the names for them. For example, his mom betrayed him. It was overwhelming for him to feel what it feels like to be betrayed by someone you love and he just sat there with tears in his eyes and he could hardly speak. I had to try to draw it out of him. That was a very painful day, but it was also a day of tremendous growth for him.

[This message edited by ThoughtIKnewYa at 1:05 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


Posts: 10902 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: North Carolina
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 1:19 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know you have to devote an immense portion of your energy to Vrazz, but what are you doing for yourself? I'll tell you, you sound depleted to me, and that's not good for you or for anyone around you.

Do you have any time to do what you want to do? If not, I urge you to work with Crazz to arrange some time for yourself pretty frequently.

Otherwise, I think SerJR and K9 make really important points. The thing is, SerJR has IDed part of the problem, but it's up to Crazz to change.

It sounds like Crazz isn't turning what you communicate into action. I think you're describing a communication problem - Crazz isn't changing his behavior because he's not really getting what you mean.

Have you considered asking for a joint session with his IC to find out what he's actually working on in IC? Is it time for some MC?

My fantasy is that if you take time to do some important stuff for yourself, you'll figure out how you want to deal with Crazz.

On SI, you're clear, concise, courageous, and assertive. (I really want a 'c' word here, but I can't think of one with the right meaning.) Is that how you speak with Crazz? Just wondering....

My bet is you'll get through this, thrive, and help Vrazz thrive, too. If Crazz steps up, you'll help each other find joy, but if he doesn't, you'll still thrive.

[This message edited by sisoon at 1:23 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8872 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The thing is, SerJR has IDed part of the problem, but it's up to Crazz to change.

It sounds like Crazz isn't turning what you communicate into action.


Yep and yep, in a very well put nutshell.

Is that how you speak with Crazz? Just wondering....

Absolutely. We've left many a MC perplexed when I explain my feelings to them. The then ask me if I've relayed that to Crazz. I affirm. They ask if I said it clearly and concisely as I just did. I affirm again, trying not to have my head snap off my neck from all the nodding. They then turn to Crazz to ask if this is true. He also affirms, with the textbook mixture of irritation and embarrassment.

I speak how I write. Ask anyone who has met me here. I'm a wordy idiot, but I try to keep it clean and neat.


It's funny that you ask about "me" time, sisoon. I feel like I get it all the time, but I can't report to you something of significance I've done just for myself in a long time. I try to grab a couple hours here and there, but the instances of "Daddy let me ride in the cart!" or "We drove so fast in the car!!!" makes me tend to stay home a little bit more. That's a whole other thing.

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't feel hopeless. I just feel close to depleted. Good word.


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
SerJR
♂ Member
Member # 14993
Default  Posted: 2:22 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So yeah, he communicated. Clearly. After hours of torture. As per usual.
Hoovering? Spin cycle?

Have you asked Crazz what you guys can do to break the cycle?

They then turn to Crazz to ask if this is true. He also affirms, with the textbook mixture of irritation and embarrassment.

He twice said "why bother telling you what I think - you're just going to get mad." which is communication POISON

Could he possibly be afraid to admit he doesn't understand what you're asking him sometimes? I wonder if he feels somewhat resigned that he is the one in the relationship that's always supposed to be wrong (and that he's afraid to express his needs when they're not perfectly aligned with yours)?

I'm not saying this is or isn't - just putting some more food out for thought.
Always good to ask questions to get us thinking.

I think you're handling this constructively. Hang in there (((Jrazz)))


Me: BH - Happily remarried.
Hope is never lost. It exists within you - it is real. It is not a force in and of itself - it is something that you create with every thought, action, and choice you make. It is a gift that you create for yourself.

Posts: 17093 | Registered: Jun 2007 | From: Further North than South
Sad in AZ
♀ Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 2:32 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hope you two can work this through. You've gotten a lot of good advice and suggestions here.

I can empathize, as the X was very similar, and I learned after DS was born that if I wanted to do anything DS and I considered 'fun', I'd have to do it by myself, and those few things that the X wanted to be a part of--and refused to make time for--we just had to forego. I never got to take DS to Disney World for this reason.

But DS survived and thrived (in big part due to my initiative, if I can blow my own horn) and the X and I would probably never have D if it weren't for his ongoing A.

Life is tough; marriage is tough; we don't always get the fairytale; but it's all we've got. You will navigate it; I have faith in you.


I promise to surround myself with amazing souls and love them fiercely.

Posts: 19139 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 2:39 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Sazzy. Makes me feel better.

I really appreciate your insight, SerJR. Excellent points that make for new ways to try and work on this. Thank you for checking in.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 2:39 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
doggiediva
♀ Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 2:47 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((Jrazz))))

I do second the idea of some mommy time with DD at another pumpkin patch or another Halloween fun place and of course bring your camera..

Don't hurry home either, get some hot chocolate or ice cream on the way home..

You do have the right to choose what you want to do with your mommy and DD time don't you? :-)

My kiddos are grown and moved out and have been for a while..

One of my fave activities with my older son when he was in his late teens was to go to a Starbucks with him at the spur of the moment..

We would enjoy each other's company over coffee while we people watched..

My younger son enjoyed me watching him practice for skateboarding competitions...

I hold all of those memories with the kids close to my heart and these memories have nothing to do with WH..

With the above said, I do definitely get what you are saying..

It is horrible when we have to deal with the impatience or selfishness of our spouse during holidays and family time..

Why can't our spouses be happy and fully present during these times?

Something for your WH to look into during counseling...

[This message edited by doggiediva at 2:52 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 773 | Registered: Nov 2011
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 2:51 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Why can't our spouses be happy and fully present during these times?

That is the question. I wish that this was something getting explored in IC. I feel like FOO issues have fallen off the menu.


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
doggiediva
♀ Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 3:01 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hope the menu for IC and MC is a pertinent and individualized one for you guys....Do you get time somewhere during or after your sessions to ask questions that popped up between sessions?


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 773 | Registered: Nov 2011
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 5:48 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some thoughts...

OK...Crazz just isn't hearing you, and it seems to be his problem....

One thing I've done a few times has been to ask my W to use IC to work on something I'd like her to work on. If this were going on with us, I'd ask her to use IC to figure out how to hear me and respond actively - that is, to tell me straight what she's willing to do and then actually do it.

We've also used MC to develop contracts between us. Some contracts I'll agree to; others I won't. Same for her. For example, W has some issues sometimes with my tone of voice. She'd like me to change, but I don't recognize the tone she objects to - no contract on that, yet, because I can't keep my side of it. Other contracts help - the formal aspect helps us keep our commitments in mind, and that helps us meet them.

Once you have a contract with 'deliverables', you can monitor and adjust. If Crazz really wants to step up, he may view 'contracts' as helpful. (In fact, it's probably best not to use a contract unless he sees it as helpful.)

Is ADD still an issue? The behavior you report resonates with me as potentially uncontrolled ADD. My W is lucky to have me, even with ADD. If Crazz has good long term potential, finding ways to help him deliver even with ADD is a lot of work, but it could be worth while.

I'm really sorry you're going through this. To be unappreciated when you put yourself out to arrange something that's fun is very painful in my experience.

[This message edited by sisoon at 5:51 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8872 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
GabyBaby
♀ Member
Member # 26928
Default  Posted: 6:04 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((( Jrazz and Baby Razz )))


Me - 41
My Rockstar (Hubs #2) - 46, faithful, & an absolute doll!
DD(20) and DS(18, PDD-NOS)
6 Furkids (4 Dogs and 2 Cats)

The Cheater:
WXH (serial cheater, 12+ OW. Undiagnosed SA?)
Married 18yrs

Note: I edit often for typos/clarity.


Posts: 5492 | Registered: Dec 2009 | From: United States
k94ever
♀ Member
Member # 11176
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jrazz, does Crazz really want to change or is this one of the conditions set down for R?


k9


BS: 56
WS: 53
Betrayed: 23 years
Affairs: 14 (2 lasted 3 months. Rest were ONS)
WS died: 16 May 2011
Do not stay in your hurt forever. Choose to move out of it.

Posts: 6320 | Registered: Jul 2006 | From: Wisconsin
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Jrazz, does Crazz really want to change or is this one of the conditions set down for R?

Tough to say. I think he wants to change... but he wants to be at the finish line already and he gets upset when it's implied that he's still not getting it.


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honestly, it could be the ADD.

DD is napping and her started whistling outside her door and clattered about going to change the air filter.

It's great that he's changing the air filter. It's inconvenient that he chose this time. She woke up, and I coaxed her back down.

I tried to peaceably explain that making noise outside her bedroom door is not a good idea. It is almost impossible not to condescend when you have to explain something so obvious, but I think it just doesn't occur to him.

Feathers ruffled, he going out to the garage to "leave everybody alone."

15 minutes later the air compressor goes off, and as the garage is also about 2 rooms away from any room in the house the LOUD buzzing resonates, waking DD up again.

This time I just open the door to the garage and look at him, likely with bug eyes, and he hangs his head and goes over and shuts it off.

I ask him why he thought turning that on would be ok, he then makes up a story about how I told him that you can't hear the air compressor inside.

Honestly, I don't know what I'm dealing with here. Forgetful or inconsiderate? Lying or does he really believe that I tell him these things? He tells me all the time that I've bent on agreements we've made, and that's so out of character and impossible that I don't know what to do but laugh.

We've been over this in counseling and he was referred to a psychiatrist as he insists that he's not doing this on purpose. He is on Adderall for ADD and Lexapro for depression/anger management.

I'm either the biggest turnip that ever fell off the truck or there's something wrong with his brain.


ETA - Wrapping back around to k9 asking me why I'm still dealing with this, there's no WAY I'm leaving my toddler alone for extended periods with someone who has permutable accountability (at best). No way.

[This message edited by Jrazz at 6:21 PM, October 27th (Sunday)]


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
inconnu
♀ Member
Member # 24518
Default  Posted: 6:38 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Honestly, I don't know what I'm dealing with here. Forgetful or inconsiderate?

Sounds awfully passive-aggressive to me. All of it. From originally telling you what he thought you wanted to hear about the holidays, to not making any plans, to being an ass when you did make plans, to making what he wanted to do more important than spending time with his wife and child, and so on.

I lived this, for way too long. And I kept making excuses for ex for being such a shitty husband and father. I took on way too much of the blame and responsibility for his behavior. It wasn't healthy for me, at all. In the long run, I ended up really angry and resentful, because I didn't have a partner. I had another child to parent.


Say what you wanna say and let the words fall out...honestly
I wanna see you be brave

Pretty pretty please, don't you ever ever feel
Like you're less than, less than perfect


Posts: 11956 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: TX
Jrazz
♀ Guide
Member # 31349
Default  Posted: 6:47 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I feel that way but I try to weigh out the positives just in case.

For arguments sake, did you even have a list of pro's? I just try to weigh out what I'm complaining about versus what I've got. He does do a lot around here.... but that parenting a child thing is a tough pill to swallow too.


For last year's words belong to last year's language
And next year's words await another voice.
And to make an end is to make a beginning. - T.S. Eliot

Posts: 14556 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: California
Sad in AZ
♀ Member
Member # 24239
Default  Posted: 6:51 PM, October 27th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Definitely p-a, but that just puts a name on it. That was my issue with the X, and like I said, I had figured out how to make my own fun most of the time. However, that at least lead to his justification for the A--I did my own thing; ergo, I didn't care about him.

Just be careful that you don't paint yourself into a corner with this, sweetie.


I promise to surround myself with amazing souls and love them fiercely.

Posts: 19139 | Registered: Jun 2009 | From: Upstate NY
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