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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Have the Rules Really Changed For Ever?
AFrayedKnot
♂ Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 6:43 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My head has been a jumble for the last couple days. I have been looking at the consequences of infidelity and what is reasonable and what is not. Here is the story:

Monday morning my fWS accepted a gift from a guy we barely know. She runs into him much more than I do. We have only interacted with him once together. He would not be considered a FOTM, or even a friend for that matter. I believe the gift was a 100% innocent gesture. There are no gut feelings what so ever. But I still questioned it. Not in a specific way but in a general way of accepting gifts from people of the opposite sex. Do innocent interactions open the door to not so innocent interaction?

After an infidelity is there such thing as innocence? Are there grey areas? Are judgement calls allowed?

Every action, every reaction, every interaction is weighed and tainted by infidelity. Three of her four A's started in an innocent way. One of the PA's started specifically by accepting a gift from a casual acquaintance. I under reacted to so many red flags over the years due to trying to see the innocence in the situations. But at the same time I don't want to live in a state of hyper-vigilance and fear. I don't want to over react to everything.


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2628 | Registered: Aug 2012
devasted30
♀ Member
Member # 39439
Default  Posted: 7:03 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree. No Gifts. End of story.


And remember Murphy is right. Nothing is so bad that it can't get worse!!!

Posts: 1317 | Registered: Jun 2013 | From: Ontario, Canada
LivinginLimbo
♀ Member
Member # 35004
Default  Posted: 7:10 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My feelings are that if it makes you uncomfortable, it's off limits.


BS - 62
FWH - 60
Married 34 years
D-Day 2/12/12
Doing well with R

Posts: 1046 | Registered: Mar 2012
Blobette
♀ Member
Member # 36519
Default  Posted: 7:16 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Who are all of these men offering gifts to married women? I want to meet them!

Point being, I have never been offered a "gift" by a new acquaintance. (Although it's really hard to think about this without knowing what kind of gift it is.) It just seems odd to me that this is a routine occurance for her, and suggests that she is somehow making herself open to this. It's kind of like the thing where I don't get hit on -- not because I'm unattractive (I'm fairly confident that I am), but because I don't give off that "available" vibe. So I guess I'd be less worried about the gift than I am about why she's being offered them.


BS (me): 50
WS: 50
Married: 26 yrs
Kids: 2
OW: Co-worker, 7 yr LTA
DD 8/1/2012, Working on R

Posts: 1060 | Registered: Aug 2012
AFrayedKnot
♂ Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 7:24 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Blobette- That is why there are no gut feelings. He makes jewelry and gives it away. I could name a dozen people men and women that he has given them to. There is nothing personal about him giving the gifts and in a normal situation there should be nothing wrong with accepting them.

But after an infidelity normal no longer exists. Or can it?


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2628 | Registered: Aug 2012
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We had this discussion at MC. He said we were bound to have screw ups going forward. I said there is no room for screw ups. He said there has to be... people are people, they make mistakes....

that said, what are the values you and your spouse are living. Instead of enforcing rules, could you ask yourself, "what does commitment look like?" And would that include accepting a gift from a person of the opposite sex?

Last year hubby and I were in Hawaii for our 25th. People kiss each other in greeting out there. A man kissed my cheek in greeting. I didn't do enough to stop it, according to hubby. I should anticipate things like this. It did give us something to talk about.... good luck!


his Dday: 2/10 but TT until 7/11
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

The conditions we face do not define us. They remind us of who we are and who we want to be.


Posts: 5238 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Midwest
lostworld
♀ Member
Member # 19197
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I understand and agree that hyper-vigilance is not a place that you want to live in permanently, and that your gut is not sending an alert that this guy is a current danger to your M. But, it simultaneously seems to me that your gut is telling you that this situation is not entirely healthy for your peace of mind, which to me says it's ultimately not healthy for your relationship, particularly since one of her A's began in a similar fashion.

I don't think it's an over-reaction to expect that behaviors that fall into a gray area, or unsettle the peace of mind of either partner should be eliminated, particularly when the events are so reminiscent of the painful past. Maybe this is an ideal time to redefine, clarify, or to simply remind one another of boundaries, and to fortify your M even beyond what you've already worked so hard to do.

And just my two cents, but I also don't know if innocence can be "re-captured" in a relationship once infidelity has made an appearance...I personally doubt it. That's not to say that love, honor, trust, etc. can't be restored and a wonderful M rebuilt, but innocence seems to me like an "all or nothing" concept. Hmm, as I further think about it, I wouldn't like my H receiving a gift from a female acquaintance who was not a friend of the M whether infidelity was a part of our history or not. So Chico, in my rambling way, I'd say the "rules" are now somewhat different, and I wouldn't like or feel at ease about the whole concept of this gift.


Me: BS
Him: FWH
Married 30 yrs. w/ 2 grown kids
Dday 1: Very early 2007
Dday 2: Mid 2008 (same MOW, 14 month false R)
R'd
The affair was the aberration, not the marriage or the man.

Posts: 817 | Registered: Apr 2008
AFrayedKnot
♂ Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 7:47 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Rachel-
We had a similar discussion months ago about hugs as a greeting. Through trial and error and categorizing different people as acceptable or unacceptable to hug, my fWS decided it needed to be a clear cut No Hugs rule. Grey areas got broader and broader over time until there was no distinction anymore. In that case at that time judgement calls failed.

ETA: Thank you for your perspective Lostworld, we cross posted.

[This message edited by Chicho at 7:51 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2628 | Registered: Aug 2012
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 7:50 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My H works in a profession where female clients treat him like God on a daily basis. They flatter him, give him gifts, make themselves available. I really didn't understand how much this was happening until after Dday. And he managed to resist all of the clients (it was a point of honor for him--I know, the irony!).

HE has to be the one enforcing the boundaries. I can't police him. Right now I am confident that he is. We have talked about boundaries with employees, which is where the problem started. Double entendre, joking, etc. He now keeps it completely professional. HE has to be affair proof. If he turns out not to be then I am gone, and I'll be okay.

So I don't obsess over it anymore. It's on him. He knows the consequences.

Chicho I think the gift was appropriate, but understand your concern. I think that even post-affair there are grey zones.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1748 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Raven96
♀ Member
Member # 40298
Default  Posted: 8:05 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If this man gives jewelry away to both men and women, I can see why you didn't have a gut instinct about it. It was probably just that -- a gift.

That being said, it bothered you enough to ask a really good question. I don't think the rules have changed forever, I think it is more about trust between you and your fWS that is being built on a more solid foundation.

I think "normalcy" will return once you are far enough out from the A, but only you and your fWS can determine when that is. Unfortunately I don't think there is any given time frame, but time is what will heal things and help you (us) move on.

That being said, that's why boundaries are so important. She needs to know what you are and are not comfortable with and respect that. This gift of jewelry, albeit a unique circumstance, made you question things a little bit, so maybe gifts from members of the opposite sex are off limits. Do you have boundaries in place -- for both of you?

I think we will always question things due to the fact that we are in "self protection" mode. I think that those questions will become fewer and further between as time goes on. At least, that is my hope for all of us!!


Marriage isn't a test, so why cheat?

Posts: 379 | Registered: Aug 2013
AFrayedKnot
♂ Member
Member # 36622
Default  Posted: 9:15 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

HE has to be affair proof. If he turns out not to be then I am gone, and I'll be okay.

So I don't obsess over it anymore. It's on him. He knows the consequences

.

I agree with not obsessing about it. But I don't agree with relinquishing all responsibility for each other. The person we lie to the most is ourselves. The beautiful thing about an intimate relationship is that we become each others eyes and ears. We can catch and point out each others justifications and rationalizations. Show each other areas that need work. That us what being a team is all about.


BS 40
fWS 36 (SurprisinglyOkay)
DD DS
A whole bunch of shit that got a lot worse before it got better.
"Knowing is half the battle"

Posts: 2628 | Registered: Aug 2012
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 10:41 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Of course there are judgment calls, even after infidelity. You probably make them every day. For this guy, giving gifts is normal. For you, Broevil's accepting a gift is a trigger - and triggers are different.

Triggers are gut-level responses that are beyond one's control. There's no need to apologize for them, even though there's no really polite way to deal with them.

You solved the hug issue together. It sounds like this is another opportunity for team problem-solving.

ow gave my W lots of little gifts, and I ignored that. I have some understanding of what you're experiencing, and I don't think you're overreacting. I have to admit, though, that I think I'd respond* in a similar way.

* obsess a little, wonder if I were effed up over this, either post or decide it's OK to raise the issue, discuss with W....

[This message edited by sisoon at 10:42 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10336 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
ionlytalkedtoher
♀ Member
Member # 39802
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

well for me personally I wouldn't like any gifts from the opposite sex. It doesn't seem right to me--maybe to others its Ok but not me.

I also HATE the fake hugs and kisses of strangers and "friends". That has always been an issue for me since I met H. All his family and his friends and associates and everyone and his uncle and dog and whoever whatever They Hug and Kiss and its just too familiar for me. Like old girlfriends and ppl he dated once--they do the "ohhh its so nice to see you again!!!" KISS KISS, extra long kisssssss--on the lips, long hugs and cuddles. It makes me sick. And I hate when others in his friends world do it to me..I don't even know you! Get your lips away from me! LOL.

Seriously ewww.

and this why he has no understanding of boundaries.


Posts: 264 | Registered: Jul 2013
karmahappens
♀ Member
Member # 35846
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Such an innocent gesture and so many hmmm's brought about by it.

I am not comfortable accepting gifts from anyone. I have a thing about "freebies" that make me uncomfortable.I don't like to "owe" anyone.

I agree with others though, I think right now you may want to adopt a no gift accepting boundary. Because one of her A's began this way whether or not he has ill intent isn't the issue. It's what dwells inside of your wife that matters.

IMO she/you are too soon out and too new into healing to just throw caution to the wind in an " I got this" kind of way.

Because it spurred questions I would come to a comfortable agreement between the two of you should it happen going forward.

I don't believe having boundaries equals hyper-vigilance. Creating new standards to live by can seem strange at first because it's new and you have to be aware of your actions,all the time it seems, but as you move along these new boundaries become second nature and are ingrained in who you both become. When becoming aware of yourself and your actions (herself/actions) it only makes you see the places where a mistep could cause a problem. Eventually the misteps are few and far between because you have become the you who lives within the boundaries you have created.

Damn...this makes no sense. lol Hopefully someone will understand what I meant.

ETA:

Sorry to answer this question:

After an infidelity is there such thing as innocence? Are there grey areas? Are judgement calls allowed?

I say yes. Because you now have communication these areas are talked about and not hidden...pre dday I bet your wife wouldn't have told you about the gift. Now, going forward you share your experiences and make decisions as a team. It allows the two of you to talk about the greys rather than making them a secret. So, yeah, there are always grey areas and room for judgement calls.

Innocence? I don't know if I would say that, but trust comes back. You won't be living under microscopes forever, you won't have to.

[This message edited by karmahappens at 11:59 AM, October 23rd (Wednesday)]


“And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom”
Anaïs Nin
Me: 45
Him: 47
Dday 8/2007
We have R'd

Posts: 3844 | Registered: Jun 2012 | From: Massachusetts
catlover50
♀ Member
Member # 37154
Default  Posted: 2:09 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Chicho--

I agree with you over watching each other. My H now tends to invite me to work events and I have pointed some things out to him. In the past he would have bristled, but now he thanks me and readjusts. (An example--they are playing a party game with balls and one young woman starts in with the "ball" references and he reciprocates. I say boundaries and he agrees. That helps him become more selfaware). And you are right that before I wouldn't have said anything, but I would have felt uncomfortable.

I just no longer worry what's going on when I'm not there. Too crazy making.



Dday -9/24/2012
Reconciling

Posts: 1748 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: northeast
Bikingguy
♂ Member
Member # 38103
Default  Posted: 4:09 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think a result/consequence of an A is a different set of rules.

Case in point a male coworker asked WW out to lunch. They do not work i the same group and have no work reason for this. It was also clear even prior to D day that he was hitting on her. We discussed this in MC and the counselor said matter of fact "this is something you no longer get to do" I really like our MC
WW response was "He is Med" I almost feel out of my chair laughing, and I think WW realized how stupid that comment sounded.

Even if I feel comfortable with her being around other men alone, just to make it easier (OK and maybe a little as punishment) she does not do that anymore.

I never had a problem with WW wanted to spend time with OM as I thought he was "just a friend" and also considered him a friend of the M. Clearly I am a horrible judge of character, both about OM and WW. So to make it easier, YES the rules have changed, and WW has zero problems with that.

I have even offered to apply the same rules to me, but she doesn't think I should be punished.


Me: BH, 44
Her: WW, 43
D day. January 12, 2013

Posts: 675 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Socal
sri624
♀ Member
Member # 33956
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, October 23rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

no gifts, period. those days are over. and after being cheated on, who wants to play that game...wondering if it was innocent or not.

nobody does.

no gifts, no friends of the opposite sex...its over. none of that..no way.

i am a married woman, and i wouldnt feel comfortable giving another married man a present. would you? if i were the wife, i would be thinking...why did she give my h a gift?

just keep all the crap out of the m....NOTHING is innocent anymore after yoru spouse has sex with other people.

if he wants to accept gifts from other women, get another m.
those are the "rules" in my m.


BS (41):(Former Doormat)
WS (39):(Busted Cheater)
Married: 10 years, 3 kids under 5
DD1: 10/11 PA/EA with pilates instructor/former stripper.
DD2: 10/12 False r, cheating with other women, online dating,Substance abuse issues.
R:Last chance

Posts: 973 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Alabama
Topic Posts: 17

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