When we can say to ourselves.. Hey, life is not always pleasant, but the choices I make are all decisions that can make me a better person and change my feelings. Bad feelings are only temporary.
One thing I know about feelings is they can change.
What I know today is our own behavior changes feelings. I would say removing someone from our lives, after having a deep emotional connection, is the most difficult decision anyone can make. Give yourself a break, it is not easy, but most difficult. But yet you know as well as anyone, people make that choice. I am strong too, I can make that choice too.
I am pretty sure the 180 is not going to work for you. The emotional bond you had with your H will always be in your head.
My parent have been divorced and remarried to other people for over 25 years now. My mom last year told me she still loved my dad. Me, “No mom, you are not loving my dad, you still have some faint feelings, that’s all.” It would be far different if my mom at the time, every time my dad behaved badly, implemented the 180.. the consequences he received at that time might have changed my dad.. to wake up and change his own behaviors that would bring my mom good feelings. Time has passed for my mom.. and you too Allgood.
Usually, a person makes the choice to end when they have had enough. That is what you to decide. Your H has already made his choice. He had enough of the consequence you laid on him. And he deserved those consequences.
Your H is not a good man. A strong masculine good man would face you, and give you a consequence. Either get your head back in the marriage, or I implement your decision. Government Divorce.. so I can be free from government force. You are divorced under the eyes of God right now anyway. No wonder you continue to be repulsed by your H, he is not masculine. Nor does he know what it takes to fully attract you back.
You cannot make your immature man into a man. I think you are wise enough to know it fell on him and he was never able or capable.
And your fears of the divorce are valid. Our egos place that stigmatism in our own minds. But your kids will respect you just as much as your H. And he will teach your boys to grow up to be immature too. But you will teach them too. It is an option and choice we advise and can only hope our kids will make the right one.
DS, “mom, why did you divorce?”
Allgood, “Sometimes, people make mistakes, like breaking a commitment. How you deal with those dictate your own happiness. You make a choice that will bring you happiness, or not. Remember, love is always a choice. When we love, good feelings follow. When we don’t love, it can bring misery. It is most important that no matter how you want to hold feelings inside, it is always best to be WISELY, most open. When you are most open to someone, no matter how difficult being open is, it will give those who you are in a relationship a chance to make a good decision. Know life is not always fair and things don’t always go according to plan. We can only control the choices we make.”
The good part is you once knew what being total independent once was, and fully able to get that back. In fact, your own peace NEVER depends on anyone joining you in your life. You make good decision and choices for YOU, and anyone who also makes good choices can join you in your journey. You will enhance their live and they will enhance your life with the law of reciprocity.
You are a very strong woman that does not need any man for your own independence. You are not stuck in circumstances. You are fortunate. And you are very physically attractive; you are very smart, interesting, and good work ethic. You are very attractive in many ways. You build on that and happiness will fall in your lap. You fear an end, you stay in misery and bad feelings continue to follow. To risk is hard, risk falling in bad feeling.. but then you can risk again. Eventually, You will find what you seek.
[This message edited by trynhard at 5:44 AM, February 10th (Monday)]
allgood, does this new 180 include WH shifting some of the visitation to his place? I do not know that you need to get back to dating, as you indicated you were not ready and fine for now, but having time for other social interactoins with adults would be good. Mr. nogood provided some adult social interaction for you, and it would be good to find new and healthy resources.
He thinks its stupid that the reason we separated (OW) is gone yet we are going to be with other people.
It was not so much the presence of OW that caused the two of you to separate as it was his continuing desire for a relationship with a woman other than his wife. That reason for the separation is still there we presume?
A man who did evil decided changed. He first told his wife he was so sorry. He admitted it was his mistake. He worked hard on his own, because he did not want to ever, "Be that kind of evil again" He stopped all his bad behaviors. He changed and did things that his wife could now feel pride in him. He showed his new self by inviting his wife to new excitements. He lost that sex neediness.. and it became bonding. He was at peace with himself. He had the strength now to avoid all those who caused misery, by eliminating them from his life. He learned his purpose in life by following his passion... in work.. in life. He knows faith. He knows love is a choice, not a feeling.
It was not so much the presence of OW that caused the two of you to separate as it was his continuing desire for a relationship with a woman other than his wife.
Thank you very much for your support.
What I mean by 180 is that while we still see each other day, I am eliminating all contact with him other than planning for the kids.
For example, last night when he came to visit, I immediately left. when I returned, I stayed in my room doing laundry until he left -about an hour later.
This morning I confirmed the day's schedule - our kids are very active, it's honestly mind blowing everywhere they need to be and it's hard to keep track of at times and he is very involved in getting them where they need to be. I wanted to pin down what time his visiting would end and he said he didn't know yet. So I pushed for an answer and made it clear that less contact is better - let's start being more consistent with the schedule.
I actually laughed out loud when you said the 180 wouldn't work for me as there is some truth there. I am fighting for it tho.
Shifting visitation to his place is unrealistic. His apartment is too far from my house. At the time, he chose that location because a friend owns it and he thought it would be temporary and the rent was and is far more reasonable than what it would cost him to rent near my house.
He has been actively looking for a closer place for at least the past 6 months.
He needs to be local to get the kids from school and to their activities until I get home.
In addition, he works in the evening and usually works weekends - right now he is coming into having weekends off and he has been taking those kids without activities to his apartment one night of each weekend.
I have been somewhat reclusive - I have not been going out or socializing as much as I have - in part it is because most of my friends are married and I am odd man out, the other part holding me back has been my embarrassment at trying to explain to people how I spent the last few years of my life - basically not moving on.
So, I will work on that.
And, while I know that dating would take the edge off this whole thing, I really am not in the mood for it.
In a way, he is right. I should have left a long time ago. Perhaps I was sad and mourning. I was trying to survive.
DS18 came over last night to talk to his father. When he was trying to explain to NPD that he left because of the way NPD was treating him like a child, NPD wouldn't listen, kept interrupting him. Telling DS that he left because he wants to smoke pot and drink. Then NPD went into a big dissertation about HIS life and what HE did, blah blah blah. DS tried to talk again and was interrupted and DS 15 quietly says to his father, "Dad, you're not listening to him, you keep interrupting." DS 15 is not afraid of his father for some reason
NPD goes on to DS18 that you're better off on your own, you'll be a man. If you come home, you have to go by my rules.
Now, all this is fine and good. I agree that if a child lives at home they should go by the house rules, but NPD doesn't really want him going out, he is going to check if he's drinking (he used a breathalizer on him a few times and urine tested for pot a couple of time too, both negative and NPD's response was that DS18 took something so the tests would be negative!!!) DS18 will be 19 next month.
DS 18 kept trying to explain that it was NPD's treatment, making DS15 upset and crying, saying things to hurt Mommy, and then NPD jumped in and said to me , "See!! You were talking to them!!" DS 15, said, NO, in front of us!
NPD can't listen for anything.
Later, when I wasn't there, NPD is telling DS15 that Mommy loves me and doesn't want to leave me and DS says "that's what you think"
Of course, NPD started in on me the minute I walked in the room, see, where did he get that idea? You talk to the kids, you are putting me down, you are confiding in them.
I don't know where DS got that idea. Perhaps he did overhear something, perhaps in his simple straightforward wisdom he sees things and understand.
NPD says, tell DS 15 you are staying not becauset I'm making you, that you love me and will never leave me. I told him the quote that I remembered from M3: "I will always love you forever, but it doesn't mean I'll be your wife forever. Circumstances have changed, and I'm not sure anymore. " (that's the closest he's going to get from me about my plans)
DS 18 and 15 tried to tell their father that he is not paying them any attention, he is either on the phone or the computer. Once again, NPD says because they heard that from me. I told NPD that even his cousin mentioned that to him, and NPD says, that's because I said something to the cousin! I finally said, "WOW! I have such great power!! I can make everyone believe things and say things!!" then I said, "has it ever occurred to you that the DS's can have thier own opinions? DS15 loves "The Walking Dead" and I don't, I didn't make DS18 love dinosaurs when he was little. Every good thing they say or do is because of you, and every bad thing is because of me?"
Sorry for this long vent. I don't know why NPD is still here. I personally think he's trying to outwait DS 18. There is no other reason. All we are doing is fighting, because he keeps verbally accusing me of things I haven't done. I either walk away, or defend myself and walk away. But it's wearing on me. He is wearing down my defenses. My self esteem is practically gone, anxiety levels are super high.
Thank you for listening.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 7:04 PM, February 10th (Monday)]
It seems that NPD is going to hear and process only what he wants through his filters. For this reason it is not productive for you to put a lot of energy and resources into your responses. They all sound the same to him, evidence it is all your fault.
I either walk away, or defend myself and walk away. But it's wearing on me. He is wearing down my defenses. My self esteem is practically gone, anxiety levels are super high.
This may be appropriated for you, and reduce the pressue of trying to respond to all of his complaints and excuses.
Another option would to only talk with him on substantive issues with a MC present as a mediator.
You need to remember that anything you say can and will be used against you. Anything you say will be twisted so it can be used against you. Anything that anyone says or does will be used against you. Just like arguing with your BPD mother, you are not ever going to win these discussions. His brain is not wired like a normal person. He knows he is right and everyone else is wrong. There is just no other way for him to see things.
Your sons did not have to be told that NPD is treating you wrong. They are old enough to figure all this out on their own. He treats them wrong, they know how this makes them feel, so they easily understand why you are not happy. This is not your fault. He has dug his own hole with his insane way of treating everyone.
I really understand how hard it is to not engage in these discussions. You just get pulled in by how wrong and crazy his thoughts are. It is natural to try and correct all these stupid ideas. I have done more than my share of trying to combat crazy. Like the album title says, you can't argue with a sick mind!
Today NPD starts talking very quietly. Says he wants us to separate. It's broken. It can't be fixed and he doesn't want to talk about it to fix it. I've turned the kids against him. We all ganged up on him the other night. (DS 18 was talking and DS15 clarified something he said, and so did I) NPD says he doesn't want anything to do with us. He's leaving and he's not going to call any of us. If we want to call him fine, otherwise he's not calling us, or coming to visit us unless we ask. He's only coming back if he needs to do business.
He says I'm not the person he married. I'm a neglectful mother because I didn't know DS 18 was smoking pot or drinking (I believe he experimented at times and occasionally had a few drinks at parties) I'm a neglectful mother because DS 18 went to a bar with his older brothers. I'm a neglectful mother because I went out to friend's house at night until 10-11 and left DS 15 alone. (I was babysitting at the age of 12!!) Also, I didn't tell NPD that I did this. I lie because I didn't tell him this.
Going on that I allowed DS 38 to take DS 15 to he movies several times and what is wrong with DS 38 that he wants to take a 15 year old to the movies and that he told me he didn't want DS to go with his older brother.
He wants to be left alone, he tells me. He doesn't want to be the DS's father because they don't want him because DS 15 asked him a few times when he was going back, so therefore DS 15 doesn't want him around. DS 18 doesn't want him or respect him because he left. We all think he's such a bad father, etc. (no one said this at all or even insinuated this)
The kids are damaged, he says, he says you damaged them. and "I don't trust you anymore" Also, I spy on him.
Going on and on how I never listened to him about DS 38 and let him in the house when he didn't want him there (they had a small argument once where NPD accused DS of something he didn't do.)
How I let DS 15 go to the movies with DS 38 when I should have gone too....I was neglectful and not caring and too busy with my own hurts to pay attention to the kids.
NPD says he'll still give money, but not for extras (whatever that means)
I said are you divorcing me? He says, no, not now. If you want a D, then fine. We'll get that paper you wanted (the post nup) signed. I said do you want a legal separation? He says whatever you want to do.
Now the kicker: NPD says to me, "I won't be your love slave anymore!"
In the middle of all this, I had to stifle a laugh. I finally said, "Your love slave? That's actually funny."
Ok, this is a very long time coming.
I have a mixture of emotions. I am relieved in a sense that I don't have to be worrying anymore about walking on eggshells.
This is what I decided to do anyway, but again, it's not something I really wanted. I guess I wanted what was not possible. That is what I'm mourning.
I kept thinking all day today, he's like a bad drug that I have to get away from.
When he was going on and on the past week or so about how I turned the kids against him, I started to doubt myself. Did I say or do anything? Maybe I didn't hide my hurt enough?
But being accused of being a neglectful mother when there he is sitting with the computer all day long and was gone almost 4 months?
DS 18 was trying to tell NPD something and got interrupted: that NPD comes and everything changes. Both the ds's have told me in the past that when Daddy comes, everything is about him. The whole schedule changes and we have to do whatever he wants.
I'm not lenient, but I listen to my kids. I let them talk. I validate what they have to say. I would think they would call me firm, but fair. Actually, DS 18 would call me strict or more precise "old fashioned" in rules etc.
Thank you for letting me vent. I'm trying not to cry. I'm so mixed up with emotions.
I'm also waiting for the other shoe to drop. I said what are we doing now to NPD. and he says what we're doing now... (which was almost regular day, but him not really talking. I was sitting in the living room with him and DS 15 at night.) Right now, I'm sitting in another room and don't plan on staying in the same room as him. He wants to be alone? Fine. I don't need to sit there and being ignored.
I guess I'm on a In-house separation until he leaves.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 9:17 PM, February 11th (Tuesday)]
Y A Y......YOU GO GIRL, HONEST......
ok.....that really is all i needed to say...that and omg...you really need to pick out better love slaves...this one just wasn't cuttin the slave part or the love part....
i so so needed to this...so thanks honest.....
as for me...i mentally and emotionally exhausted...my half sister was found dead last nite....she was 45...an autopsy is being performed...i was not close to her...but i am still quite sad...for several reasons.....sad for what should have been and could have been...yet another relationship in which my and my kids were at the bottom of someones hit parade...her choice...anyways,.....thats another story for another day if ever...
point is,...i am drained and its only the begining of a gruelling process....death, wakes and funerals...and of course right smack in the middle will be a huge snowstorm...i
so honest...thank you for the much much needed smile..and relief for you!!!!
Ok, let me just get this out of the way:
I won't be your love slave anymore
And thanks - I now have an image of NPD with collar around his neck chained to your bed. I can only hope that this image dissipates quickly.
This is what I decided to do anyway, but again, it's not something I really wanted. I guess I wanted what was not possible. That is what I'm mourning
I think it's easier that way because people like you and me would just beat ourselves up about being the one to decide anyway, despite its justification.
I'm sitting in another room and don't plan on staying in the same room as him.
Seems like a good idea.
Don't think about everything at one. Dont think about 3 months from now. Day by Day.
I am very sorry to hear about your sister.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 6:46 AM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
When he was going on and on the past week or so about how I turned the kids against him, I started to doubt myself. Did I say or do anything? Maybe I didn't hide my hurt enough?
Stop that! There is no insight or better perception to be found down the rabbit hole that is his convuluted thinking and feeling.
NPD is insane. He is not a slave to anything except his own twisted mind.
Sorry to hear the news about your sister.
Allgood: It's hard if we are the ones to finish it or if they are. I don't know what's worse. I don't know why he's still here. I think to finish some business. He barely speaks to me. I go in the other room, I'm sleeping in DS 18's room. Being in his room makes me miss him all the more. I feel like I'm the one being punished.
Ats: You are right, I shouldn't go down the rabbit hole. I can't analyze stupidity and irrationality. I can't fix this. I often think of what you said so many times as a mantra: "You can't nice yourself back into a marriage." Although I've worked on my codependent issues, I think they are rearing their ugly head, or perhaps it's the bargaining stage of grief?
Dip: It's so good to see you. I hope you are doing well. NPD is a slave to his own whims and expects everyone else to be too. He acts so nice and sweet on the phone talking to everyone else and ACTS nice to us, and then the insidious hurtful remarks and so many little selfish and uncaring things he does that just add up.
I was so starving for attention that the little crumbs he threw seemed so good. But the crumbs weren't enough and now, I even miss the crumbs. I feel more lonely that he is here than if I were alone.
I'm staying pretty calm, but the emotions are all over the place. Anger, upsetment, sadness, grief and a little relief that I have a clear path ahead.
Damn snow that is coming!! I tried to make appointments with lawyers and the snow storm is getting in the way. Another snow day stuck in the house with him!! Cabin fever!!
Oh, I had a thought about that love slave comment. I would really love to go to a store like Spencer's and get a pair of those joke "love" handcuffs, the kind that have boas or are pink or red and give it to him for Valentine's Day and say " here I set you free" But it's not worth the time or effort and the idiot would think I was coming on to him
I think I'll post his great quote in General to give people a laugh
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 10:21 PM, February 12th (Wednesday)]
I sit in my living room, having been awake for some time now and my thoughts are everywhere....
first and foremost i think of my sister, gone at the age of 45, cause is unknown at this time....
i think of all the time lost, i think of what could have been, what should have been...yet another relationship in which me and my kids were never put on any kind of priority list...the last time i saw my sister was at my dad's funeral and that was about 7 years ago....
second i think of my daughter
my heart is broken on this one....she has not been talking to me for more then 2 weeks...she tried to put her 2 cents into a discussion i was having with pfm concerning her brother...i started out calmly telling her to back to her room because the conversation didn't concern her, after 5 times my anger grew and i told her to get her ass back to her room....and when she still wouldn't budge i told her quite forcefully to get her fucking ass back to her room.....upon that...she demanded an apology...to which i replied not to hold her breath...(all i could think of is the nerve...she is buttin in and SHE wants an apology)
anyways....upon the death of my sister i would have thought she would have put her gripes aside at least for now...NO...still not talking to me at all...and this breaks my heart...how could my dd be so cold...and i am angry with pfm because i stepped up and made my kids do right when his mother died and here he is not....
then to top it off...i wait up for my kids when they are out...she has(had) a curfew...and she came home 1/2 hour late....to which i got a little sticky note the next day informing me that she no longer has a curfew....she lives in my house and who the fuck does she think she is...I MAKE THE FUCKING RULES.....but i am too drained and mentally exhausted to go there....i decide to deal with it at a later time....when i could think rationally...i feel like she is 12 instead of 21
and lastly...i have not been that happy at my new job....its a transition period and i am hopin that once this transition period passes it changes....but i actually went to work yesterday...the boss and the manager both knew of my loss....and i got grief from them because of their expectation level....i am a good worker....i work non-stop...not the lazy type...not the type to take my time doing things either...and it pissed me off that they expect me to do the work of what should be 3 people at this point....and to boot....here i am, in work when i could have a taken that day off for bereavement....and they are on my case....i bit my tongue....i know i may not be thinking rationally at this time.....but i am pissed...and i hope when this transition period is over these issues will not exist....
on the other hand, one girl at the job, took time out of her responsiblities to help me beyond what she could have and should have...and this touched me, i am crying now as i think of it....
i am so not used to people putting themselves out there for me, that when it happens it touches me beyond normal, the more she offered the more i cried as i cry now just thinking about it....
anyways.....i sit here in my living room and my head is everywhere....and still i will say...what pfm did still tops the hurt list....that hurt more then the loss of my dad and the loss of my sister....its snowing hard outside....and its beautiful...i want it to be next year....once again i find i am waiting for when things will be better...i am so tired of waiting for things to be better...and wonder if they ever will be...
honest: i think of you too hon....i am so relieved for you....your wait is almost over....you will finally be able to move forward, no more limbo, no more walking on eggshells, no more alot of crap...
as for your son...take refuge in knowing that as soon as npd leaves he will come back home....
and as for the way npd is making you feel right now....remember he is a MASTER MANIPULATOR...and make no mistake about it....he upped the ante.....and i really believe he is waiting for you to come back to him grovelling which i think is why he is still here....
...i want it to be next year...i am so tired of waiting for things to be better...
... back to her room because the conversation didn't concern her
I am going to suggest that to your DD, a discussion between her M and her F about her brother does concern her. These are all people within her circle of concern and influence. I do agree with your thought of "My House, My Rules", I do the same with our 18 year old, and when our 21 year old is home from school. I have an advantage that for the last few years FWW and I have been able to present a united front on these things. I think that the difficulty in your situation is that you and pfm are not united, and it is clear to the children that there are 2 parent/leaders in the house. I suspect that while you were telling DD21 to go to her room, pfm was making no comment or even putting on a look of exacerbation. Because you and pfm are not working towards a common view of the future, it will be difficult if not impossible to present a united front to the children in the important matters of today.
You have a WH who is not able to be a meaningful participant in a relationship with you, and children who are at the adolescent and older rebellion stage. I only see things in your house becoming more uncomfortable. I think the real change will occur after you finally leave pfm and the worry in the back of everyone’s mind is reality and the family can then begin to re-order to fit the new reality. Yes, it will probably be worse before it gets better, but at this point I think everyone is just waiting, maintaining the status quo. It is unfortunate that pfm is not able to be a player in this in any helpful way, but then if he was able and willing to do that the separation might not be necessary. Yes, it will fall to your shoulders, again, to pull the plug and separate and divorce allowing this comatose M to finally expire. That is the point where people will begin to finally move on. Yes, some will blame you for killing the M, but you know that you have thought hard on this and choose what you believed was in the best interest for your family, even ahead of yourself.
....he upped the ante.....and i really believe he is waiting for you to come back to him grovelling which i think is why he is still here....
I agree with iwam on this honest. I believe that in his mind so long as he does not show weakness or give in on any feelings or issues that he believes that he will “win” the power struggle with both you and DS18. It is not in him to have empathy, to seek reconciliation, to affirm you or DS18’s feelings even when he disagrees, to agree to disagree on an issue while building on common ground, to have a crucial conversation and manage the emotional aspects (don’t these all sound like the goals for people trying to be good M partners, supervisors, and parents?). I know that you know that you have to give up on ever getting an “ ’atta girl” or “thank you honest” from him. You will continue to get these things from your sons, from friends, and from those of us you have helped so much here on SI.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:00 AM, February 13th (Thursday)]