My main concern is the impact on the kids. I see families affected by divorce every day. There are things to be concerned about.
Iwant is a example. She has told us many stories of how she will confront pfm with these bad behaviors as they relate to her kids. She makes sure her kids know her values. The kids are then free to make a choice. Her kids might make the right choice or might not. But she did what she needed to do. She is not allowing some bimbo to teach her kids bad values and behaviors. She has her pulse on her kids. I also believe she stays M because she does not want to split valuable time while her kids are so young. That is her value.
It in fact, her value is a good value. A positive value. But with this value.. You must believe to yourself.. Hey, my H can have sex with anyone he wants. I don’t care because he is not going to have sex with me.. I believe in monogamy and the only reason I stay M is for ME and my values.
Although she is not in a loving marriage, her H is still making the choice to live up to some vows. Perhaps he is living in monogamy? Who knows?
My response was to simply tell him to use a condom. Then he accused me of not caring about him - how could I be ok with him having sex with someone else?
I am not sure exactly what you mean by that? Meaning you will have sex with him if he uses a condom with you? or when he is having sex with others.. He had better use a condom so as to protect you when YOU allow him sex? What you said is mixed up.. a mixed message?
IMO.. until you deal with your own fears you will stay in deadness.
You must somehow get to a place where your thoughts no longer take to you bad feelings.. feelings of deadness. For Iwant.. Her H not dare touch her. Her mind is made up. NO SEX. That is her thoughts and therefore she will never have that fear. He can go have sex with any old hag whore he wishes. Free to catch whatever disease he wishes to risk his life.
So… Your fears about your kids.. You don’t believe my real story about my own father? It is not divorcing that causes kids to go wild, become into a person who has bad values.. bad behaviors.. it is what YOU do that will dictate that. And what YOU do may or may not be enough.
Let me tell you this.. You don’t need to be divorce to have bad kids. My best friend’s child is into drugs. They have spent all their saving on lawyers, counselor, etc... They are the most good people I know. One day, I expect their daughter to grow from a girl to a woman.. only then will she see that the consequences she pays today all lay at her own feet and nobody else. Until she realizes that she must take personal responsibility for her own actions.. She stays lost.
And now it is time for YOU to become a woman and throw out the little girl left in your soul. These are the decisions and choices they way I see it.. you have…
1) You are going to leave your H.. be at peace with being single, learn to take care of YOURSELF by yourself.. And should romance find you .. a good man find you, You make sure you are wise this time and make a good choice. In fact, you are going to be wise, because you are not going to pick a man with flaws because you are going to learn what flaws are detrimental or not detrimental. And Co parent divorced. You can be at where 7years is at.. it is far far better.
2) You are going to make the choice like Iwant.. You stay M and learn and try to accept and deal with your H in the most positive way to raise your kids, spend the most possible time with them.. NO sex with your H nor care about who your H has sex with. You do not control your H in any way. He is free to decide when he goes to family events or not. No pressure on him. You decide when you want to go to family events and you do all this for peace in the family. Let your H be a boy and you focus on things that give you pleasure. And you have fun doing those things and some may even be with your H. You sacrifice romance during this time so not to teach your kids to cheat.
3) You are going to R. This means YOU risk. You risk maybe years more of dealing with your H who might not change. You can always select the above two should you need to. But enjoy it while it happens.. be at peace with it as it comes to you. This chance is HIS blessing. Take PRIDE in your choice becasue a good woman forgives. If he has not learn from all he has been through, he is lost forever. With R’ing, comes YOU controlling your own thoughts. You are going to have feelings sometimes. Rather than resisting those feelings and fighting those feelings like you do now, you are just going to change your thoughts. You do this by blocking those thoughts and drive them into a deep memory. You take your thoughts and turn them into attention to something else. Like the example I gave RP. And you are going to be a far better W to your H. You look hard at your own behaviors and change them to be all good for the M. ALL GOOD for the MARRIAGE. And when he does not like what you do.. YOU LOOK at yourself first before YOU conflict his bad behaviors. You are going to learn every good behavior and every bad behavior and what those are. You change the way YOU conflict.. these are going to be healthy conflicts this time.. and you are going to learn techniques to how you conflict in a safe way.
You can always be stuck in little girl mode too.. where you are at today. Limbo. Misery. Are you afraid in your work? I doubt it because you have Confidence and COURAGE. Now you be a woman and you with courage make your choice! I wish I could tell you the easist road to take.. I can tell you I am at peace with R. I have taught my W to change. She did with her own choices based on what I taught her. I never once minipulated or told her.. she did it because she wanted too. Ok maybe a minipulation or two.. but I am getting far better not doing it.
[This message edited by trynhard at 11:47 AM, November 11th (Monday)]
Just want to make sure I am clear re my condom remark - I was not offering to have sex with WS, lol. My suggestion was for him to use a condom with whatever other sex partner he chooses. The remark was meant to be dismissive as I was done with the conversation.
I am taking in the rest of what you have said. One thing is clear, however, I cannot live like Miracle. WS and I may have spent a lot of time together, but he always left & I had plenty of time to myself as well. That has made all the difference to me. Not meant as a slight to Miracle (and she knows that), it is very admirable. But I am not cut out for it.
7 years - glad you are doing well.
So...in a way... you do hold all the cards.
NJ - i love a good card game and realizing that I hold the winning hand sort of brings a smile to me. I know his activity is more than shady enough that he certainly wants me not saying anything to his wife.
Total focus on filling all my W's needs. Making the choice in my mind to be far more quality than any man around me. Learning who that man is... Executing it.. Until much of it is who I am. I am becoming a far different person. Hell yes I've messed up along the way.
Tryn in a way you are exactly right. I am not sure I can take it to your level, totally focusing on all of my W's needs is just not something I am likely able to do given where we are at. That level of committment is something that is earned and my WW has not yet earned that. She is very sorry and remorseful for what she has done but when I sit back and evaluate it she has not given 110%. You are right in that I need to focus as much as I am willing on my W needs but also I need to just focus on things I need - hobbies, etc. Our kids are still young so the routine of family & work doesn't always leave much for time.
She needs a man who not dare allow her to share intimacy with another man. Sex with any human is bonding to some degree. You done with that? Don't fear my asking because some people say they can handle that.. If You can handle it, you are on right side of that bell curve.. That's all. What does your gut really tell ya?
I don't fear you asking, I just don't talk about it much on here. No it is not done, it is significantly reduced - it is a couple times a year. I certainly wouldn't recommend the route I have taken in dealing with this stuff - is that a message from my gut? Maybe. I am not sure if your first sentence is right though - if my WW went 110% and fixed all her issues maybe then it would be true. I can stop it whenever I want, I think sometimes the known is always less scary than the unknown. In this case the known is of little threat and to me it feels controlled. It fills a need of my wife so in an odd way I am doing what you first recommended but I am sure that is not your intent.
It fills a need of my wife
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Fighting feelings… Let me share on the worst level fighting feelings.. I have been there.
Years ago, I was in an airport waiting on a colleague to meet him for a meeting. As I was waiting, miles away from my wife, my thoughts took me over..
My thoughts… She is meeting her lover. She wants to be with this man. I am such a loser of a man. I did nothing to deserve being cheated. I should have my GPS set up but I don’t. I should have said “this” and “that.”. I should have left my wife.. I wish I would have taken my gun to OM’s child so he could feel my pain.. This went on for minutes.. maybe 15 -20 minutes.. These thoughts over and over.. and over…
And then my body started to fail me. I cried… The thoughts became so overwhelming.. my breathing became abnormal. I felt something in near my belly.. a real physical pain. It was anxiety. A panic attack. My first in my life.
See.. These thoughts turn into feelings and by continuing these thoughts, what I was doing was fighting feelings. When you fight feelings, the result becomes these feelings control you and consume you. You lead yourself down a path of self destruction.
Remember when I say.. Your thoughts come before feelings? A friend of mine sent me something yesterday I will share with you.
Every time you try to block a thought out of you mind, you drive it deeper into your memory. By resisting it, you actually reinforce it.
What the above means is you change your thoughts. When you do this… every time.. The thought will become locked in a place in your brain.. Buried so to speak. You must turn your attention to something else.
And I am also saying at the same time, you turn you attention to YOUSELF.
We cannot fix our spouses. They must fix themselves. But what we can do is FIX US.
We can fix our fears. We can fix our behaviors, thoughts, values, principles.. on and on.
You are not going to convince me that YOU cannot do this.
I am not sure I can take it to your level, totally focusing on all of my W's needs is just not something I am likely able to do given where we are at.
A key, critical need is your own fidelity. A GOOD woman needs fidelity. A bad woman does not.
Let me tell you what I Want. I want to fuck every good looking woman I see. Heck, they don’t even need to be good looking.. They just the way they present themselves, a certain way they put there hand on me, position their body.. words can do it. This is called lust. All people have it.
My wife can take an attitude..
Wife, “Honey, I know your sexuality is such you need to spread your seed.. You can do it with this woman over there because I am better looking, but not that one. You can hire a whore but not someone you might have feelings about”
Me, ”good honey, I will do that” and one day.. Oh heck, my W doesn’t care I have sex with that one woman so I might as well chase that one.. it will feel so good.. makes me feel good. Wife’s a good woman and lets me do that… but she does not have to know, because I fear she might not like that..what she don't know won't risk hurt.. since I have these rules I am unclear about... I can use that as the excuse”
And that is what YOUR wife thinks. Now you may think that is ridiculous. But let me tell you this.. SEX is that powerful. A clear rule must be in place.
But I control my own thoughts. I respect my W because I made a vow of fidelity. Despite those feelings I could have.. Lust, I control them… I made a covenant with my eyes not to look with lust upon a young woman. I keep myself from paying attention to what is worthless.
Let me tell you using Allgood’s H as an example. His own feelings of having his sexual needs filled.. Spreading his seeds.. he might have has guilt, shame.. the things liars feel. However, when he discovered Allgood was having sex with her new BF during her separation.. He now experience far different feelings. Those we all know too well. Hurts are far worse on our end. I know inside his “hiding behind the tuff badge self” he hurt like none other. Oh I bet he cried like a baby.
When my W discovered I had made a date.. She went NUTS.. the anger and pain flowed out of her.
This is why YOUR wife needs you to demand fidelity. It is one of those needs you can now understand as not what she thinks she needs.. but what deep in her soul she needs. It is kinda like an unwritten need.. an unknown to herself and all woman have this need... She doesn’t even know she needs this.
We must know all of the needs of our women. And we must know them all.. because doing a few will not work. Once we know them, we execute them, they will be so attracted to us, that unleashes them to submit to us.. Because they WANT to submit to us.. I am sure that comment will get some lashing. Perhaps the exact same can be said in gender reversal..
[This message edited by trynhard at 7:52 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
anyways, about attraction...I was thinking of it like a magnetic field. And women's feelings are the metallic filaments scattered, disoriented, pointing in different directions. I hope we can all agree that womens feelings are more chaotic and variable then mens in general. Your theory implies that the force of attraction organizes and creates symmetry of all the metal shards, now in alignment, symbolizing feelings now congruent and pointing in the same positive direction.
ok well I must be high this morning.
off to work!!!
I hope we can all agree that womens feelings are more chaotic and variable then mens in general.
They discovered that during high mutual levels of cooperation with a romantic partner, men typically experience an “inphase” response to their significant other’s emotions. That is, if the woman in the relationship is feeling more positive, the man will feel more positive. If she feels less positive, he will feel less positive.
Conversely, it seems women experience more of an “antiphase” pattern during high mutual cooperation. If her partner is feeling more positive, she will tend to feel less positive, and vice versa.
In other words..We men know this need.. We must not be too postive..
Oh how art imitates life...
[This message edited by trynhard at 8:46 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
So.. I was in MI and saw a winery that had his same last name. I thought, heck I will love that man with a gift and bought a couple of bottles.
When I got home,
Me, "hey check this out, I want you to give this to your boss"
W, "Oh, that is neat, That would be a good Chistmas gift for boss."
me.. ? Huh?
Me, "Well, I bought this for your boss, not for you to give as a gift, this is my gift to him."
W, "Oh.. I just thought .. blah blah.. long blah blah.." trying to talk me into the Christmas gift.
me, "So, I will put it in your car and you can give it to him in the morning."
Her.. Not too postive... I filled her need. So she could now be postive. then I can be postive for her to fall back into negative.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:26 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
Changing your thoughts can help with anxiety/panic attacks, but sometimes those thoughts come out unbidden. There are a lot of triggers out there. I don't know if it's so much of hiding the thoughts that bring on the feelings, but trying to get to an acceptance that the thought comes, the feeling follows, but to recognize the trigger, accept that it hurts, take a deep breath and go on.
It's very hard to do this in the beginning. All new hurts have to be incorporated and it gets harder and harder if there's TT, gaslighting, continued lying, etc. And for me, continued hurts and new discoveries, changing rules, etc has worn me down to dust.
Still trying to get myself together, but another bit of bad news that is not A related has hit me hard.
Look.. In my mind, knowing all your post.. I SO desire my W to be more of a woman like you. You are far too sweet. NPD men pray on women like you. Thus..
BUT, no matter what I do, I can't change him and what he does. He is not choosing to be faithful to me. He wants to cake eat. So is it me because I'm not "quality" enough?
It is not possible for any woman to satisfy a man like this. He needs a woman he can totally control and minipulate.
Do I think you allow him to do this? Yes.
But I have faith in you.. One day, you will change and have courage. Courage to enjoy a new kind of life. And who know if your life will be better or worse. But one thing is for sure, you eliminated one toxic thing.. And if you stay quality.. a good man will see it.. if you stay quality.. you don't even need a man to be happy.
Still trying to get myself together, but another bit of bad news that is not A related has hit me hard
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:18 AM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
Last night FWW got up in the middle of us watching an episode from the first season of American Horror Story. I thought she had gone to the bathroom, but then heard sobbing from the back porch.
Once she calmed down, I found out she was over-whelmed with still having to deal with her issues of wanting to be approved and “made happy” by other (me), how much she hates her Mother for the abuse and terrible relationship behaviors she was exposed to. In the movie there was dialog and a scene about cutting with a razor, FWW still keeps a razor for cutting.
Sunday, FWW ran into a man she knew from when she used to run 5-ks, and his wife. He remembered FWW, and she says she was overjoyed that he remembered her, and then she freaked out at how important this seemed to her. That is why she blasted me that evening for not paying enough attention to her and leaving her vulnerable. The time she was running 5-ks was solidly in the time of her As, and I am sure that all the memories of running are mixed in with the wayward thoughts of me and her APs.
So what have we, at least I, learned:
American Horror story with abuse, mental issues, cutting, etc, is not a good series for FWW, at least not the first season; we will stick to season 3.
She still harbors a lot of hatred and damage from her alcoholic, promiscuous mother.
She is unable to self-affirm, or be happy on her own, knows it should not be my responsibility to always know what to do and when to do it without being told, but struggles with this.
She really feels worthless after a year of unemployed and now working minimum wage in a garden shop.
She is improving, she recognizes wrong behaviors and dangerous feelings, but lacks the skills and/or strength to replace them with positive behaviors and self affirmations.
She has deeper issues with sexuality reaching further back to her childhood than she had told me.
I am able (still need practice) to step back and see that I am not the issue when she is attacking me. She is projecting and painting black and white, and I am the target, but not the issue.
The only good thing about all this is that it confirms and validates that the A was all her and not you. I know that may sound stupid to someone who has not been a BS of a LTA, but I think you know what I mean.
You have done everything in your power to heal yourself and help heal Mrs. Ats. I know she has worked hard too to the best of her ability.
I hope you are finding peace, my friend, and always remember that you are not responsible for her happiness and mental and emotional health. If this is not enough for you, you can always move on. You know you've done your best and Mrs. Ats knows this too.
I really, really admire you Ats and am in awe of your long journey.
You can take this as her way of telling you shee needs more affirming. It does no matter if can self affirm or not. All you can do is affirm the heck out of her.
At every chance, I have been able to develop ways to affirm my wife. It is apart of me today.
I do it when she describes what she does at work.. You are smart honey, the way you handle things is what I really like about you. I try to say it in as many different ways as possible. I do this to my kids too.
Thank You's all the time..
How often do you just grab her hand? You know about twice a week.. I will embrace my W and give her a make out kiss.
I will run my hands down her back just in passing.
When she buys something for the house. I notice it.. and make a comment that was a good choice by you.. You have good taste.
When she does anything healthy.. I make sure I make a comment about her strenght... And that inspires me.
I bring her stupid gifts all the time.. joke.. it's an I love you gift... she says. STOP IT.. remember.. no means yes.
An most of ALL.. I NEVER call her a name or critize her. That was most difficult. I do not tell her how she should be doing anything unless she ask for my advice. (LOL.. Funny how I don't do that on this board.. )
oh yeh.. when we are out with friends.. I have been able to throw some very good.. My Wife is great at that..
And it happens daily.. without her having to say.. I need attention.. why? Because I do it.
Beleive me.. Women need a whole bunch of affirming.. that can come from spoiled FOO like my W.. or not near enough FOO affrimation like your W.
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:38 PM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
Paging Sister Milkshake...
Yeah, tryn' it doesn't matter if you drink more Kool-Aid or not, it has already done its damage to you. You continue to make generalizations about what women want.
Women need a whole bunch of affirming..
Because they WANT to submit to us.. I am sure that comment will get some lashing.
Tryn: Sometimes when I read your posts about being a good H or W and that filling all our spouse's needs would make them want you and not cheat, I feel very inadequate.
I know I'm not perfect, I have tried to make myself better, went to IC changed a lot of things, put my H's needs first, etc etc.
BUT, no matter what I do, I can't change him and what he does. He is not choosing to be faithful to me. He wants to cake eat. So is it me because I'm not "quality" enough?
IT ISN"T THE BS THAT ISN"T QUALITY OR ATTRACTIVE, IT IS THE WS!!!!!!!!!!! This is the truth.
Honest, you are beautiful, you are quality, you are attractive. Just the way you are.
ATS, I read your post as a positive. At least she is actually realizing some things even if she isn't in a place yet to be able to help herself. Baby steps.
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 4:42 PM, November 12th (Tuesday)]
now about being 'attractive', it is just as much about self-care...loving and protecting yourself...making sure you get what you deserve...
...that's the way I see it...for me.
A need or a want? Two very different things. What do you need and what do you want RP?
Great question Sister - I think for her it is a need unfortunately. I'm a simple person, my needs and wants are not a long list. I need food, water, clothing, shelter and to provide for my children and that is pretty much it. My wants are probably even a shorter list, lets just say I am a horible person to buy a gift for. The wants that I do have lately are not all that realistic - for me I would like to have never been told any of this A stuff, I want to take the blue pill. I want OM1 to have justice, I've been trying the last few days to decrease my focus on this want. I want to just be happy.
I am not an idiot. I have read your post to know you have a great strength about you. It is your own self negative talk where you are weak. It might be your not looking at how to have a married and happy life. It begins with YOU. You must now develop into a man who knows every need of a woman.. And most women cannot even tell you what they need.
Tryn maybe your right, my idea of marriage is likely less than ideal - I really don't expect much and maybe in turn to give as much to it as I should. For me though I am just one year out from a WS who cheated the entire time I knew her - I think I am still in the trust building mode and watching to make sure actions back up the words said. My WW probably has done 75% of the hard work needed to be done, sometimes I feel I still need to be cautious still.
I will substitute "women" with "WS" and I think you sentence is often true, most WS cannot even tell you what they need. It is sort of one of the reasons that often causes the mess of cheating in the first place. My WW tried to express her unfulfilled needs in a conversation that started talking about the A but I wasnt going to discuss them in a conversation about the A. I told her that I was more than willing to discuss her needs anytime but not in context of the A because I wasn't going to let them become excuses for her A. Guess what - that conversation was never brought up again. Maybe I should have let the excuses be entered but they are difficult to accept when brought up in that fashion.
So how do you fill needs that you don't even know what they are and some of those needs likely are misplaced needs in the first place? I am sure some of my WW needs come from a low self esteem - is it really my job to fill those needs? I sort of feel it isn't even though some of them I do address. I'm not a mindreader and have told my WW that.