allgood: yup your ws does not get it...like so many of our ws's...they don't get it and likely never will....
my ic likes to say that pfm just does not have those tools in his toolbox... and apparantly neither does mr nogood... there is just so much that they are capable of...
i actually think your ws has hope someday way down in the future...at some point in time i think he will grow up and "see"....but by the time that happens your kids may be all grown up and "done"...
some ws's have that potential...but thats where it stops...potential is not enough to mend a broken heart and marriage...potential is just that potential it is a dream that is possible and its not definitive...and after betrayal we deserve the definitive...without it we would never feel safe and without it we would not have a "working" marriage
MCjack - that's awesome you ran for office. Sorry you didnt get it but don't give up - you might be it next time.
Allgood - ugh, I read what happened, sorry
and hello to all of the new LTA people who have posted.
Things are ok in my world. One issue that I am still struggling with is I hold so much anger for OM1. I constantly find my mind drifting to evil ways to give him consequences. I feel like I have skipped a step in the healing process. I have never communicated with him in any way - I know that is the recommended approach but it feels like I should still.
I still don't even have a frickin picture of what this guy looks like. My WW saved nothing - she offered to describe him or draw a picture but I turned that down because I think it would just make it worse. I want to see him suffer some consequences and just saying the karma bus will get him someday doesn't seam to satisy me at all. Any suggestions, the dont worry about the OM and focus on your WW just isn't working for me. He lives a few states away now.
Even before this latest incident, I still struggled with eliminating OW from my brain.
A year after DDay, I was stil so angry at her. Yes she switched precincts as a result of DDay, but other than that - no repercussions. So unfair.
I decided to call her & that is exactly what I said. I said I still hold such incredible anger for you & thought if we spoke, it might bring some closure.
She agreed to speak with me, and was very apologetic, said all the right things I suppose. Of course, it was all horseshit. I could've poked 100 holes in her story, but I just let her ramble & tried to take away the sentiment that she was sorry.
What I have tried to remind myself is that these people are so screwed up - that bad things will naturally happen to them from their poor decisions.
Having said that, I still think it was a pretty big waste of time.
Having a visual has been disastrous to me. I do not recommend it. Mind movies take on a whole new meaning when you know what the AP looks like. Especially when your WS inadvertently sends naked pics of her toyour joint cell phone account.
A very painful personal affront was the fact that the OW had the nerve to show up at MY father's funeral! She convinced a few other co-workers of my FWH to go. I did not find out about this until after d-day. To think that this OW would stoop this low. To use my father's funeral as an opportunity to come and check me out and our family out.
so, yeah.. I had a lot to be angry about.
Do you think that your anger is due to the same thing? that the OM is not remorseful? and may be gloating about his conquest?
I had fantasies about writing her a letter telling her how I felt but I realized that she would never see things the way I might want.
She has a skewed view of the world.
And if I put anything in writing I could imagine her carrying the letter around and showing it to people and laughing about it etc.
It would most likely not have the effect that I desired.
It would not make her feel bad or realize the error of her ways.
Over time, my obsession with the OW faded. As my FWH continued doing everything in his power to help heal the marriage and make amends the less I thought about the OW.
Hopefully, this will be the case for you?
Reunite: It is very hard not to be angry at the AP. No matter what logic says, we still are angry at a person who engaged in so much damage to our marriages and self esteem. I know it must be hard not knowing what the OM looks like, but knowing and meeting them is no picnic either. I met the OW twice before I knew (she was his secretary, how cliche'), have seen many pics, and the icloud account sent pics from the OC's phone to mine with all of them: WH, OW, and OC's together one big happy family. I wasn't even looking for this. The OC's text my DS all the time. It's hell. I've seen pics of them together when they all came to the US over the summer on other people's facebook pages. The OW is nothing. Everyone tells me they think she's a tramp, no one likes her, etc. But my WH seems to think she's great, I guess. He will never give her up.
The anger I have towards her exceeds no bounds. She stays at my house overseas when she has her own, sleeps in my bed, uses all my things. And this is going on for years before DDay. She knew all about me and my kids. I told my WH if she comes anywhere near my house here in the US, I will call the cops and will make such a scene that the neighbors will be talking about it for a year and a day. I wouldn't touch her, although I'd like to beat the shit out of her because it's not worth going to jail over a piece of shit.
Sorry, that got quite ventish.
So, Reunite, I do understand your anger. You have every right to it. But I don't know if knowing what the OM looks like will actually help. They are nothing. They are low life. There was a great thread, I think in general, that said "they always affair down" and this is true. The WS chooses someone with no integrity who will participate in a sordid affair.
I know that others on SI may say that we should direct our anger toward our spouses.
But, I directed my anger toward both right after d-day.
NJ that is exactely how I feel. The thing is that with my WW I can see her consequences, I can see her remorse, and I can see the changes that she has made. For the OM, I just have hatred and anger with nothing else - I don't think there is anyone else in the world that I know that I can't see at least a little bit of good in.
Do you think that your anger is due to the same thing? that the OM is not remorseful? and may be gloating about his conquest?
From what I know of the situation, I do not think OM has any remorse. I don't think he is gloating though. He may very likely blame me and have anger towards me. My WW and he dated first before I met my WW. He knew about me when my WW and I were dating but I never knew about him. I don't think he wanted to M my WW while we dated, I don't think those feelings came around until after we were M. He could feel some level of betrayal himself.
Right now I am sure he is very scared. I have not told his current wife. He has only been M for a few years and now has kids. The PA part ended a few years ago. He definately cheated on his current wife while they were dating. I have asked my WW if the PA was still going on after they married and she has said yes but the timing doesn't feel 100% right. They moved away right after they got married from what I can tell and my WWs memory is not the best. Because the PA ended a few years ago and I do not have 100% evidence that he cheated on his current wife while they were married (+kids involved now), I have choosen not to tell her. I think he is scared I will talk to her though and that fear has kept a solid NC in place. I also think that knowing that he is scared of me telling her makes me smile - I am sure that is not a healthy reason to not tell though.
So, Reunite, I do understand your anger. You have every right to it. But I don't know if knowing what the OM looks like will actually help. They are nothing. They are low life.
You may very well be right, he is nothing and he is a low life. Him and my wife were together longer than my wife and I have been together so far though - I think it will always feel strange that I know so little about him.
I know time hopefully will help. I just find myself spending way too much time on this issue and want to get it out of my head. Everytime I am driving in my car by myself I think about it - I've tried to just listen to music, talk radio, anything but my mind still wants to go there for now.
Thank you for your thoughts, you gave me some good points to think about.
first: ow #1 was there before me like you reunite...and pfm did not want to be involved with her til she was married...not he but her....and then it never ended til d-day
i did finally find her picture...and it did not help...she was fat...and i know they started having their affair while she was skinny...but it didn't help that she was fat...but i found out about #1 after i found out about #2..
second ow...i googled her, she is a judge and so there were plenty of pix....i was also told i met her...but i never remembered her...she was also fat and always was...and worse she was not attractive and she was older...she looked like she could be one of our mothers...
and then we have #3 and #4...i spoke to #3....never saw her...
i actually spoke to 3 of the 4 confirmed ow...and then of course there is my friend who became my friend after he unsuccessfully tried to hit on her and they became nothing but friends....so he introduced us and we became quite close....
anyways...i spoke to 3 of them, saw only 2 of them...and you know what..it didn't help me move on in any way shape and form....they all lied so there was no information to be gained...and i didnt really know what to make of how they looked....because their looks seemed to be all over the place..so i guess if a woman had a vagina she was fair game for him...didn't matter how old, how fat, how skinny, how attractive or not attractive...they only needed a vagina...
i believe most op's can be interchangeable with whomever is available and possess the lack of integrity to get with a married person....
with exception of being able to just vent it out to them....i see no point....i actually was in a position to talk to #4 as well as a few others i suspected...but i realized at that point that there really was no point...i was not going to get any information that would help me....#1 tried to tell me that my husband loved me...whoopdie fuckin doo.....what the hell would that mean considering he said those words to her too...kwim....
i have moved on to a point that i no longer need any information to be able to move on....i am sure because i plan on divorcing him that is the healthy way...but for a long time i still had that need to know...even though i knew i would eventually divorce....but NO MORE...and i feel so FREE...its amazing...i actually dont care....sure there is that part of me that would love the details, not for "r" but just to put some of the pieces of the past together...but not for anything else...i am movin on and i frankly don't care anymore...its part of letting go i believe....
i look forward to my future...there was a time when i felt like i had no future...no future that didn't involve pain...no more...i am getting excited now because my goal is near....its been a long long time comin....it will be 5 years next month since d-day....and its been my entire marriage being in a bad marriage...i now see it all for what it was.....BUT and its a biggie
i have 3 amazing kids from that marriage...
i think i rambled...will have to hit the new preview button and see....
how cool...you can hit the edit button in preview and fix stuff...
The risks outweigh the benefits. And, of course, there's always the concern you might lose your composure, say something unintended that can come back to haunt you.
she dicated their entire relationship and he went with what ever he could get......
That so describes my WW relationship with OM. He would tell her you don't call me, I will call you. Treated her like crap and she took the little she could get. I really don't get the not wanting to marry her until we were married thing either, who the heck does that.
Allgood - you are 100% right that I shouldnt contact him at this late date. I have had a succesful NC in place that I have verify as best I can for almost a year.
When I think about talking to him though it is not a rationale conversation that I am envisioning though. I think my desire to confront him clearly is about giving him consequences and regaining the power that I feel that he must have thought he had over our relationship. Examples of thoughts I have include things like sending him a simple message saying "I have your wife's phone number" or "have you had your STD test today" or sending his wife a basket of flowers labeled simply "Love you" only (she will think it is him and he likley would have to play along but worry who would send them) or have UPS deliver an embarrasing sex toy to his house with his name on the order for him to have to explain why he would order something like that.
I say these things not as things I would act on (I am not even sure some of my thoughts are legal) but more to show where my mind seems to constantly want to go. Bottom line is I want to see him punished. Thanks for all your thoughts and suggestions, I think just expressing my thoughts in writing helps on its own. I am just worried that time will never eliminate this from occupying too much of my thoughts.
Treated her like crap and she took the little she could get.
It goes back to 'intermittent positive regard", in which the victim of the abuse actually becomes addicted to the instances of positive affirmation.
Also, regarding the picture issue. I know what OM looks like, meet the guy 22 years ago and have seen pictures of him on his practice website.
The photo that disturbs me the most is one that I found on our kitchen computer. Based on the date, my WW must have gotten it at first contact: it was a photo of the guy with his youngest son. I saw it again recently. Now that I have gotten to know his BW, and learned about the 2 boys, their struggles, etc., my reaction was one of real sadness for that cute, little guy. And sad for what a douche his dad is, that his dad did nothing to try for real R, etc. The whole thing on their end is shitty - and was before I called her. I sometimes wish that there was something I could do, or have done differently.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:15 PM, November 7th (Thursday)]
Reunite- as for contacting the OM. You do have a lot of power over him.
You have not contacted his wife.
And he knows that you can.
And whether or not he officially cheated on his wife during their marriage...there's enough shady behavior there that he would not want his wife to know.
And, I suspect, that he did cheat on his wife and would not want you to contact her and open up that can of worms.
So...in a way... you do hold all the cards.
MCjack- I agree. The WS do so much damage to their families, to their children.
It still amazes me that society excuses and even accepts infidelity as a fairly common occurence. Meanwhile, the damage it does to families is severe.
Today.. I sometimes get some curiosity. I did have these emotions like you after all the shit hit the fan.
It has no meaning nor emotions today.
How did I get to today?
Total focus on filling all my W's needs. Making the choice in my mind to be far more quality than any man around me. Learning who that man is... Executing it.. Until much of it is who I am. I am becoming a far different person. Hell yes I've messed up along the way.
My W needs a man who will call her out on every bad behavior.
My W needs a man who does not need to bring up her past failures.
She needs a man who not dare allow her to share intimacy with another man. Sex with any human is bonding to some degree. You done with that? Don't fear my asking because some people say they can handle that.. If You can handle it, you are on right side of that bell curve.. That's all. What does your gut really tell ya?
She needs a man who loves himself to know she is not my property. I own myself. Nobody owns me.
My W needs a strong man who is not depressed and can control his emotions. Who is attracted to a miserable person? A complainer?
Ok you get your head back in this game of M. Next time you go down that path.. Call a friend.. Do business.. Interact.. Replace those thoughts with how you are going to seduce you wife at next opportunity.. You start from the very beginning of the seduction. The words said hours in advance.. A stupid flirt.. You go through every minute of what the event about to happen.. As if it is happening for real. Pull that perfume sample swab out of magazine softly rub it on her..
You take something of deep passion. I have played a round of golf in my head.. Every hole, every shot.. How I placed that tee in the ground..
That POS.. He is not worthy of thought.. I refuse to have any relationship with him in my brain. OM is lost in life.. I can't fix him.. let it go.. Take your mind to focus on how you can give more, teach more, be a better father.. Better at work.. Take your brain in that fantasy and make it reality after several fantasies.
Know this.. Believe this.. Your W messed up. Know in your heart where YOU messed up. Fix that.
I don't give a rats ass about what happened. Its about today.
Share to other how you got to your peace..you are doing it now.. A man will win this battle with repetition of being positive. Be a quality positive man!!
I don't feel sorry for MC's loss. Hell, what a ride that must have been. Heck that took courage. My W and I have decided to work on a campaign. I can't wait to start.
You go take the world back.. Expect to get burned and that's ok. Why.. Because I always seek perfection.. It's an endless search and changed directions.
Oh yeh I act on every gut.. No more burying that gift. I make that gut turn into a reality good for me.
WS states that he is depressed. Has not participated in some of his usual activities as a result and has changed the way he visits the kids this week - leaving earlier than usual or otherwise spending less time here.
Looks like we are dividing up the weekend too, so the kids will be here less.
This is going to continue going forward he says.
He also says that he doesnt plan on going to THanksgiving dinner - which is hosted by me and both of our parents, siblings, the kids' cousins, etc. attend.
Hard to explain his motivation, but its not vindictive. I think .
Do you really believed a man is satisfied with self sex?
So.. Get ready.. You might start having an attractions to him as your dead feelings might just turn into alive..
I think this is going to be very good for you.. It will move you.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:05 AM, November 8th (Friday)]
Do you really believe a man is satisfied with self sex?
Ummm, don't believe I offered an opinion about this, but no, I do not believe a man is satisfied with self-sex. Not sure where you were going with that one.
I am still physically attracted to WS. But, at the same time his actions repulse me. I dont think I will have any new feelings for him knowing he is still this attracted to OW.
And, unfortunately, I have seen this kind of behavior from WS before when I was dating. Once I stopped dating, all was well in his world again.
The only difference this time is he appears to be taking this to the kids, in that he is now changing the parenting schedule, supposedly because he finds it too difficult to be near me when he knows theres no chance of geting together. Personally, I think its a little more realistic that hes trying to show me how difficult my life will be when he's not around to watch the kids as much or fix something in the house, etc.
Which is pretty funny actually, because nothing stirs me up more than someone messing with my kids. He just digs himself in deeper & deeper.
As far as the household stuff goes, I will figure it out. Planning to repair a toilet this weekend.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 7:05 AM, November 8th (Friday)]
I think not attending the joint Thanksgiving is actually a good idea
Im less concerned with his cake eating and more concerned with my children's experience.
When we told them we were separating, the one thing we promised them was that we would try to keep everything the same for them.
I have known his sisters since I was 16. I have watched his many nieces and nephews grow from infants to adults and many are still young. My kids have played with their cousins often, at my house, slept over my house, they have gone away together, etc.
No one in his family has been placed in the middle of our conflict, so everyone is fine with us being together at these kinds of events.
My kids will always be at the center of every decision I make. If it makes WS happy or comfortable as a by-product, I couldnt care less.
Obviously, this is not a typical arrangement, so more people disagree with me than agree, but most separated/divorce people are unable to be cordial with each other too.
Personally, I think its a little more realistic that hes trying to show me how difficult my life will be when he's not around to watch the kids as much or fix something in the house, etc.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 8:09 AM, November 8th (Friday)]