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User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 15
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 4:08 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Same here. That's why I like doggie. I can have a look of total contempt on my face, and she doesn't know. :)

With us she is letting me finish on her face and in her mouth which she never let me do in over 22 years of marriage until now. But she was more than happy to do it for her AP.

When we tried it last week and this weekend she absolutely loved it and says that she wants me to finish that way more often. Now that the wall has been knocked down she is happily letting her inner slut out to play with me which is what I wanted all these years from her sexually...

But emotionally? It fvcking freaks me out and makes me trigger like hell. We have fun in the bedroom but then I go out to the living room and sulk for hours.

Once the novelty wears off, and the resntment remains, where does that leave me?

[This message edited by DefeatedDad at 4:09 PM, November 12th (Tuesday)]


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
LetMeRollIt
♂ Member
Member # 41189
Default  Posted: 4:11 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We are in very similar situations. Weird.


D day- June 30, 2013
Me - BS
Married 15 years
5 year old child
Attempting R as of Oct. 1 2013

"Cry, and let your soul be cleansed of a love that turned to carnage." - Christy Brown


Posts: 98 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DD and LMRI,

I think many have been there... somewhere along the way after we find our that our WWs betrayed us the way that they did, they change in our eyes, and that special closeness is just gone. And without that closeness sex is just sex, no matter how wild and kinky and crazy awesome it is... without that spark, that connection, it is just.... different.

And sometimes sad.

There were times when I wondered if sex was all we had left.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 8:15 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DD and LMRI,
I think many have been there... somewhere along the way after we find our that our WWs betrayed us the way that they did, they change in our eyes, and that special closeness is just gone. And without that closeness sex is just sex, no matter how wild and kinky and crazy awesome it is... without that spark, that connection, it is just.... different.

And sometimes sad.

There were times when I wondered if sex was all we had left.

Quoted for truth.

This is exactly how I feel. I have told my WW this in MC and it devastated her. Maybe that is why she is trying so hard now.


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
foundoutlater
♂ Member
Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 9:04 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

somewhere along the way after we find our that our WWs betrayed us the way that they did, they change in our eyes, and that special closeness is just gone.

No question. I look back and can’t believe how I thought about my W, let alone the things I said to her. It’s sad that some of it was so true. With time I came to realize sex was never that “special closeness” for my W like it was for me. I’ve learned it was about what I was giving. We cannot feel our spouse’s feelings, only ours. It’s impossible to know without the honest discussions that I don’t think happen without this kind of tragedy. I don’t think she was capable of letting her guard down enough for it to happen. It might not relate to your relationship since my W cheated early in our relationship and again early in our M then lived with that secret for years. She had a secret to guard. She was not trying to be his “girlfriend”. It looks like it was all about validation, escapism and fun. Really sucks that the sex for her was good. I’m sure POSER enjoyed it since he came back time and again not knowing how I would react if I found out. The best indicators about me back then said he’d pay for it with some pain and suffering. She did have a “special closeness” with the POSER, but that was superficial because of her lack of depth, not to mention his shallowness.

I’ve also changed my view a bit about the crazy monkey sex and “meaningless” sex. I’m believing that inside my M it’s pretty much all good. I’ve been working on letting go of the notion that she gave him something or I have something to be reclaimed. And I went through it with immense pain. There were things I thought I was the only one with my W that turns out he was the training ground. Well that’s just the way it is. If she held the same views about fidelity and relationships today that she did during the A I would probably have a harder time accepting it.

Most of my “progress” has come after enough time had passed during which my W was remorseful, willing to talk about anything, answering me no matter how it made her look or me feel and her becoming a better spouse. Without that I think I would not have made any progress. In working in R our sex has become more meaningful for her. It’s taken awhile but sex with her is meaningful for me as well because I can believe it is meaningful to her. The kink or fetish need not take away from it. It is just one facet of our sex life. Not the best part, but definitely fun.


I hope your W can be the honest spouse for you now or at least working her ass off to get there.I know for my W it has been a frustrating experience. I don’t exactly trust her, but I’m believing that she is now being honest. The doubt that has gone on for years pre DDay2 brought frustration and anger from her. She and I now realize that was the shit we tried to burry back after DDay1. After DDay2 and some reading she realized what it means to break trust and she understands my doubt. She has frustration but her anger is mostly at herself. She understands my doubt and works to rebuild the trust.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
brokenniceguy
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Member # 39195
Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, November 12th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Gents,a few of foundout's comments made me think of a question - in the struggle for recovery did anyone dive into getting their WS to focus on empathetic listening? I didn't know it was a formal topic until I hit the web.

WS and I seem to be in the loop of: how are you doing? I say fine, because really fine has a new definition these days. I also usually say I'm frustrated by the whole mess but working on making myself better as well as being interested to hear what she thought about (which she shares).

I'm fine and functional but obviously hurt by what she did. She doesn't really push the questions beyond that. Every now and then I will bring up a specific question, but after several months I'm more fine each month(able to sleep and work, but that is the new fine, which I've told her).

However, many of our conversations seem pretty soft and I'm looking for her questioning to guide the discussion. I can get a response when there is a burning issue that popped in my head, but other times I'm looking to see what she wants to know and I'm not really into reading the laundry list of feelings over and over with the hope that she will see a shinny object to chase.

I guess that's where the emphatic listening comes in - any other of you had success with a BS and empathy? She says tell me what to ask you, I say I can't tell you what to ask me because I'm not you...I then say what to you want know and she says how to make it better, to which I say I wish I knew.


Posts: 25 | Registered: May 2013
Sproket
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Member # 41262
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow so glad I here,

HB, my anger kind of escapes and to me my WW is no longer my W. I talk way more aggressive to her but reading you guys responses I see I'm quite normal even afterwards.

All these cute panties she bought and I never seen her wear I ask her about them. My WW always said I worn these around you and I'm like the HELL you did throw them away now. That stuff was supposed to be for my eyes only are tainted.

Now she wants to snuggle up in bed but I end up cat napping only and being up half the night because I am pissed.
Right now I haven't had a good night sleep in a while or eating more than once a day. Well if that is one good thing to come out of it I should be down to 230lbs in no time.


ME:BS 40
W: WW 40
M: Oct 2009
D.D Nov 2, 2013

Posts: 68 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: VA
DefeatedDad
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Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sproket you are just days from DDay. Take your time and don't try to process all the anger and hurt too quickly.

If you don't feel comfortable with your WW snuggling up next to you, kick her to the couch! Make her earn the right to sleep in your bed again. She cheated on you Sproket. It is perfectly okay to be pissed and to vent and see her as sullied and tainted, and don't feel bad about letting her know this.

Waywards who pay no price for their cheating only rugsweep and repaet the same behavior down the road.

Take your time, read the threads here and educate yourself as to the best course of action in dealing with your wife. You have a LONG, Long road ahead of you. Do not let her dictate to you the speed at which you and your marriage recover from the atomic bomb she dropped on you.


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
nomoreplease
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Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 8:29 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

brokenniceguy – My XWW never did get this, but she was a little different in that she would turn whatever I said into being about her and/or would tell me I was wrong for it.

While asking open ended questions is a part of empathetic listening, ultimately it is up to you to figure out what you want to share with your WW, and the way I read your post, empathetic listening isn’t really what you’re looking for (yet), because, IMO, the answer ‘fine’ is a way to shut down the conversation and is basically saying ‘I don’t want to talk about it’ (which is understandable after betrayal and before she has shown that she is safe) It sounds more to me like what you are looking for is introspection, depth, a desire to be proactive, and remorse (showing she is safe to be vulnerable toward) from your WW, which she may or may not get to.

Sproket – No real advice, but I will say I’m over 2 years out and my D has been final for over 4 months but I still occasionally struggle with sleep (never did before the A).


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
LetMeRollIt
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Member # 41189
Default  Posted: 9:29 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Re; empathy

Its a major issue for my WW. At the height of her fog, when she was being very cruel to me, she was told by a psychologist mutual friend that she was behaving like a narcissist sociopath, and had to have the meaning of empathy explained to her. This caused a change in her, and she got 1/4 out of the fog.

Sprocket: I didn't sleep or eat for 6 days after D Day, and went totally insane. all the while caring for DS. I have learned that every couple weeks i get a noticeable bit better. I'm still triggered a lot, but don't get overwhelmed by it, and i still don't sleep more than a couple hours in a row. You'll feel better in time. I promise.

[This message edited by LetMeRollIt at 9:30 AM, November 13th (Wednesday)]


D day- June 30, 2013
Me - BS
Married 15 years
5 year old child
Attempting R as of Oct. 1 2013

"Cry, and let your soul be cleansed of a love that turned to carnage." - Christy Brown


Posts: 98 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
LifeisCrazy
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Member # 38287
Default  Posted: 9:43 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Most of my “progress” has come after enough time had passed during which my W was remorseful, willing to talk about anything, answering me no matter how it made her look or me feel and her becoming a better spouse. Without that I think I would not have made any progress. In working in R our sex has become more meaningful for her. It’s taken awhile but sex with her is meaningful for me as well because I can believe it is meaningful to her. The kink or fetish need not take away from it. It is just one facet of our sex life. Not the best part, but definitely fun.

This is one of the most salient points I've seen written on these boards. It is a lesson that I, too, have lived and that I hope that each of you guys have the opportunity to witness.

As time goes by, reconciliation becomes more clear and you both begin to heal you will find that the affair becomes less important. For those of you with a truly remorseful wife you will find that instead of "making her pay for it" you come to the realization that you don't WANT for her to pay for it any longer. You just want to accept her new found love and your new found marriage.

You will stop demanding the kinky sex and not care whether or not she did it with the AP. In fact, the AP will fade into a sad recess (only rarely to be approached) and you'll simply begin to enjoy your new sex life (with the occasional kinkiness thrown in) because your MARRIAGE is better. Sex will become better because it will be more meaningful, not because of some new sexual act.

There is some sadness to be taken from that - the knowledge that it required a tragedy to force the communication, the self esteem issues, the need for validation (etc., etc.) to the forefront. Why couldn't this happen without the affair?!?

But then you realize that it's over. The affair is a thing of the past and you're left with this woman - this beautiful, smart, amazing woman who you love.... and who LOVES you.... and is open, and honest and communicative - and DAMN! The sex is amazing!

For some of you she just can't get there. But for others of you (DefeatedDad I think of you so much in this regard) your wife is on her way. Your marriage is on its way. Give it time to evolve and give yourself time to heal.

It can be done.


"Pain is temporary. Quitting is forever."

Posts: 128 | Registered: Jan 2013
numb&dumb
♂ Member
Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 9:54 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No more Mr. Nice guy attitude is something that some can pull off and some can't. I personally don't have much trouble making peace with myself if I act in that manner. The trouble is that term is a catch all for so many different types of attitudes that go from extreme to barely noticeable. I think I find myself somewhere in the middle.

For me, standing up for myself is never the wrong option. I learned early in my life that I can’t have a consistent expectation for anyone to do that for me. I may take it too far at times, but I am defending myself against everyone else. Most people out there do not have my best interests in mind (they are too busy chasing theirs). I can only depend on myself and I can only trust myself. Some view that as sad, I view it as realistic.

Enter my WW (I normally call her my W, but in this case I am generalizing). I make no illusions that given the right circumstances; she would choose her own interests over mine. The delusion I had and I know some of my fellow Menz may have/had is that we assumed M meant that you put the interests of others ahead of your own. You sacrifice your individuality on the altar of matrimony. If R has taught me anything it is that was a big mistake.

I am not going to lie, cheat and steal to get what I want, but I am most surely going to protect what is mine. I can live honorably without being a doormat. Balance.

Loving during R with the Mrs. was something that was difficult to figure out. I have always had the ability to separate it into two categories. Meeting needs and intimacy. Both are important and can co-exist, but for some time after DDay I allowed myself just to focus on my needs. I got through it as a means to an end. That may sound cruel, but it is the truth.

Only after enough trust was established was the second part even possible. I was not going to punish myself through this. I took the path of least resistance to ensure my needs were met so I could focus elsewhere. (Look up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, in there is where that logic comes from). I had needs and the easiest way to have them satiated was with my WW. I at times had to close my eyes and pretend I was elsewhere to get to the end. Sad, but true. I was honest with my W about it when she asked. It hurt her feelings, but it was honest and she could understand why I felt that way (empathy). In order for me to have a chance at feeling close again I needed a physical connection first. This was hard for my W, but crossing that bridge showed me she was willing to try and close the divide she created.

I may get judged harshly for that attitude, but judgments by others are usually an indictment of their own insecurities. (e.g.- If I judge others than I feel a little holier than thou about myself). Also in a situation where you are trying to survive, the normal societal imposed constructs lose their validity. Survival at its most basic element is about self preservation. If you don't survive (physically or emotionally) then relationships with others are a moot point. (Think of the air mask analogy on a airplane that just lost cabin pressure)

Sorry for the length. Take what you need and leave the rest.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


Posts: 2457 | Registered: May 2010
DefeatedDad
♂ Member
Member # 41026
Default  Posted: 9:57 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As time goes by, reconciliation becomes more clear and you both begin to heal you will find that the affair becomes less important. For those of you with a truly remorseful wife you will find that instead of "making her pay for it" you come to the realization that you don't WANT for her to pay for it any longer. You just want to accept her new found love and your new found marriage.

You will stop demanding the kinky sex and not care whether or not she did it with the AP. In fact, the AP will fade into a sad recess (only rarely to be approached) and you'll simply begin to enjoy your new sex life (with the occasional kinkiness thrown in) because your MARRIAGE is better. Sex will become better because it will be more meaningful, not because of some new sexual act.

God I hope so.

See for me (and maybe I'm just being a selfish prick) the sex acts that I'm obsessing over are not about the sex. It is about territory.

My wife gave something that belonged to me to her motherfucking OP who did not deserve it. She, for some reason, had a hard time understanding this for a long time, because to her there was no emotion involved in the sexual things she did with him. So to her the sex with him was fun and exciting but worthless.

Her vanilla sex with me for twenty years was worth more to her than the six months of porn sex with him because with me there was an emotional element involved. She just figured I would feel the same way.

Now however she understands that for men, sex is the way we feel loved by our wives, and that the quality and type of sex also define how much our wives love us. She never got that before and once that lightbulb went off in her head she was shattered to the core about what she had done.

Am I making sense or just talking drivel?


Me - BS 46
Wife - WS 44
Son 13, Daughter 17
Married 22 years
D-day May 16, 2012
TT D-Day 2 9/25/17
TT D-Day 3 1/02/14

Divorcing her sorry a--.


Posts: 217 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: New Mexico
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And then I end up triggering because now when I look down at her when I'm banging her or finishing, and she looks up at me with a smile on her face, I feel like I'm seeing her through her OM's eyes.

This... This basically sums it up. It's weird. Hard to explain to someone who hasn't been through it... It sounds crazy..."Why would you imagine yourself as him?!?"

But that's exactly what happens.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 11:17 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DD

My wife gave something that belonged to me to her motherfucking OP who did not deserve it. She, for some reason, had a hard time understanding this for a long time, because to her there was no emotion involved in the sexual things she did with him. So to her the sex with him was fun and exciting but worthless.

Her vanilla sex with me for twenty years was worth more to her than the six months of porn sex with him because with me there was an emotional element involved. She just figured I would feel the same way.

Now however she understands that for men, sex is the way we feel loved by our wives, and that the quality and type of sex also define how much our wives love us. She never got that before and once that lightbulb went off in her head she was shattered to the core about what she had done.

Makes perfect sense to me. Our sitch was different, but the feelings rhyme.

She said repeatedly, "It was nothing. I didn't love him. I was just having a little fun."

Recently she "got it" (37 years later!) and realized that her actions cut me to the core. She said recently, "I had no idea."

Now, I did spend months basically going batshit crazy on her, but somehow that didn't make much of an impression at the time. Maybe too much fog inside her goggles.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
Razor
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Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:27 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Most of my “progress” has come after enough time had passed during which my W was remorseful, willing to talk about anything, answering me no matter how it made her look or me feel and her becoming a better spouse. Without that I think I would not have made any progress. In working in R our sex has become more meaningful for her. It’s taken awhile but sex with her is meaningful for me as well because I can believe it is meaningful to her. The kink or fetish need not take away from it. It is just one facet of our sex life. Not the best part, but definitely fun.

I disagree with this somewhat.

We will all make *progress* regardless of whether our WW is remorseful. That inevitable progress amounts to simply learning to cope with the new reality we find ourselves in.

If we have a remorseful WW that works to win us back then feelings of love will be possible again. If we dont have that then we can either D or just learn to be *friends with* our WW. In either case we are making progress.

Healing happens no matter what condition we find ourself in. We will heal. I believe that in every case there will remain some resentment toward our WW over her affair. But this will be in the background and for the most part our life will be good or at least ok.

Healing comes with time and time just pushes along and there is nothing we can do to stop it. So healing is inevitable. Its HOW you heal and where you end up in that healed state that counts.

Some fortunate ones have a remorseful WW and she works to rebuild what she broke and so they will end up in a M that is at least somewhat happy. Others dont have a remorseful WW and instead continue to endure her believing that her LTA was all her BH fault. Its possible to stay M to such a WW and have at least a polite friendship with her. Aside from that you can build your life beyond that relationship and be at least somewhat happy. In both cases healing has taken place and in both cases you will be at least somewhat happy.

Healing wont come from your WW. That comes from you. Where you end up and how your relationship is with your WW depends largely on her capacity for remorse and empathy.

Just my opinion.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3088 | Registered: Sep 2007
MC_Jack
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Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 11:35 AM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just wanted to chime in and say that I feel the same way about that stuff. It's tough to deal with for sure. In my sitch, the OM was my WW's f*ck buddy for a couple of months the previous year to my meeting her 22 years ago, and I guess had the same role reprised in 2010. In between those two 'relationhsips', let's just say that while I wanted a f*ck buddy I got something else...


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
foundoutlater
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Member # 32900
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I disagree with this somewhat.

I don't disagree with what you have said. For me to be in the M and make progress in the M it required her to do her part and the things I mentioned. The progress I meant was the progress in my view of her, the M and sex with her. Not everyone feels this way. I did not want to be in an M with someone who believed their fucked up choices were somehow my fault or someone who did not see their actions were wrong, hurtful and were remorseful. I know many do not share this view (usually because of kids or money). I don’t think they are wrong. It’s just not right for me. Just like those that choose to D when they have kids and the WS is the “perfect” remorseful WS. Everyone has to live in their own skin. For some it’s a deal breaker off the bat. I thought that was me. Turns out it is not.

Healing wont come from your WW. That comes from you. Where you end up and how your relationship is with your WW depends largely on her capacity for remorse and empathy.

I completely support the idea that our personal healing and progress, while aided by a remorseful W, is not dependent on it. I found sometimes my W’s remorse actually hindered my personal healing.

Healing the M though to me is completely dependent on both parties healing. That’s what I was trying to post about.


Your beliefs don’t make you a better person, your behavior does.

Posts: 1063 | Registered: Jul 2011
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In between those two 'relationhsips', let's just say that while I wanted a f*ck buddy I got something else...

Yep. Husbands represent real life, which just isn't as fun and sexy as an OM who lives in Fantasyland. I'm convinced that they subconsciously punish us for representing reality. Which is exactly what they would have done to the OM if the roles had been reversed.

If the WW comes from a FOO where reality was often something to avoid and escape...well, there you go. Old childhood coping mechanisms resurfacing, with an adult twist.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 12:03 PM, November 13th (Wednesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Healing wont come from your WW. That comes from you. Where you end up and how your relationship is with your WW depends largely on her capacity for remorse and empathy.

what Razor said


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

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