She swears she will not cheat on me again, and will simply end the marriage if it gets to that.
She's got a long way to go, man.
"what was I supposed to do?"
I wasn't sure where to interject with my problem. I posted over in the General section, and was told you guys may have some insights for me. Ive been married 22 years and last year my wife had a six month PA with a coworker.
A week ago, after we got home from marriage counseling, we got to talking about the things she and her affair partner did and she disclosed for the first time that she had done things with him in bed that, prior to the affair, she had never done with me. These were things that in the past I had suggested we try, but at the time she did not want to do them. Well, I am ashamed to say I did not take this information well. I lost my temper and went off on her, calling her horrible names. She broke down crying and for the last week there has been a tension between us that you could cut with a knife.
Any of you guys have some insights that can help me through this hell? I'm about ready to call it quits with her.
[This message edited by DefeatedDad at 6:48 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]
This thread moves pretty fast, so be ready to hold on for the ride.
The only thing I'll add that I didn't say in the General thread is to not focus in on the one aspect of the A and let the anger over that overwhelm you. You really need to look at things from all angles. Try to really see the forest for the trees, if you will. A decision made in anger is seldom the correct one. Are you in counseling, either MC or IC?
Just, be patient. Willing to bet that a lot of the guys on here have been 99% of the way to D before pulling back and trying one more time. 22 years is a lot of time to throw away. Your W is broken and she made a horrible mistake. You feel emasculated by her willingness to do things with other people that she didn't do with you. We get that. But that anger will pass with time. Dont make a decision with that anger clenched around your heart.
She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.
she disclosed for the first time that she had done things with him in bed that, prior to the affair, she had never done with me. These were things that in the past I had suggested we try, but at the time she did not want to do them.
Any of you guys have some insights that can help me through this hell? I'm about ready to call it quits with her.
My only advice is to echo what ontheslope posted - don't make any major decisions until you've cooled down some. Early on, had I let my rage get the better of me, I'd be typing this from a prison cell tonight.
Also, I'm not encouraging you to leave here, but I think that waiting until the holidays ends does more harm than good. If things are really that shitty then everybody comes away with "Man, the last family christmas I had was so scarringly fucked up I think I'll write a movie about it starring Vince Vaughn."
Don't rush off to get a divorce. 180, take care of yourself, look at who your wife really is - use that time to decide what you want to do. That time isn't about waiting to see if emotions settle down so much as using it to get things done and get yourself into a better place - getting yourself into a better place is good whether you D or R.
Take some time to think about whether or not this is a deal breaker for you. For a lot of guys it just is. We all have different thresholds so there's no easy line to point you at when it comes to what you are willing to work through.
If she's showing you respect, being transparent, all in? You are still not obligated to reconcile. If you want to reconcile though, shouting at her is probably the worst way to go about working through this - if she's willing to disclose information and gets ripped to shreds she's probably not going to want to do it again.
[This message edited by StillGoing at 8:07 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]
BTW tools kick ass. And this is coming from a financial guy by day.
[This message edited by slater13 at 8:20 PM, October 17th (Thursday)]
Montreal - as harsh as I may come off I am still all for giving the marriage all you've got. Getting your shit together is a great thing.... but nothing has to be rushed.
What really creeps me out now, is that my fWW told me, while we were dating, that she had sex with one of her high school teachers ( she was a Pom-Pom girl). I remember being really creeped out about that, but the steady stream of sex, at the time, overrode whatever warning signs were flashing on the horizon.
I wish I could go back to 1988, and tell her that, No, you can't come to Arizona with me, you'll find someone else in a day or so...
D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married
[This message edited by flup at 11:39 AM, October 18th (Friday)]
Recently she gave me a detailed timeline, but said nothing really new. In fact, earlier she had mentioned they had sex 3 times in one night, but during the timeline discussion, when I brought that up, suddenly she couldn't remember!!! It had only been 3 months prior she told me about the 3x night.
I too found my FWW did sexual things with her APs that she did not / does not do with me. I think it somehow plays into the fantasy that they are living. For my FWW, she was a different person with her APs, self-confident and in charge. She did not worry if they saw a fault (a sag, a scar, whatever) because she felt they were lucky to have her attention, yet she is still embarrassed about her body around me. I assure you this embarrassment is not something I generated.
When 6+ months of TT ended for me and I found out a bunch of new stuff, folks tried to tell me to accept that nothing new had happened, just my awareness of it. To this day the only thing I know is I do not know it all. I just presume that she did everything I think she did, or that she could do.
What I do know is that my W has issues, and her sexuality is one of them. Sex was a tool for her, it has nothing to do with emotional intimacy. She is classic in the borderline personality trait in that we had creative and fun sex from early dating to the honeymoon, then once we got home it was like a switch was thrown and sex dropped to less than once a week. Later, I would look back longingly at those days of sex a few times a month. Now as she gets healthier, sex is still a difficult issue, and I expect to be impotent before it gets completely worked out.
On balance, I have not been willing to pull the plug on a 20+ year M over infrequent sex. It is not loyalty to FWW, but the kids, mortgage, and finances. Once I get the DSs through college I may revisit D since the financial pressure will be reduced. I guess I see my M as good enough for now.
Compare the cost/effort versus benefits. I do not recommend D just to make a statement or because things are not what you want. Rather, would D put me in a position to get what I want, and if so what is the likelihood? This will sound callous, but FWW is older than I am by more than a few years. By the time I was to D FWW, and then recover my financial footing, it is not unreasonable that FWW would have passed by then, or soon after. Why put my family through all of the angst if the likely outcome is the same as staying till death do us part? OTOH, you may be at a different place on your life timeline and your situation may be better. There may be time for you to D, recover, and have a significant second life.
As a final note, I should acknowledge that my FWW is trying hard to be a much better person for herself, for me, and for our family. She does not meet my needs, but she owns her shit now and is working on it. I share much of the blame for tolerating her behaviors for 20 years, and blaming her for her actions then is like blaming a miss-set clock for showing the wrong time. While we are not particularly religious people, FWW is teaching our family redemption and I am teaching forgiveness. Right now she is not someone I would marry, nor is she someone I would D.
... how you know this about your wife's A- that is was mundane.
Speaking of my own sich, in addition to telling me about screaming orgasms from oral, achieving orgasm from his penetration only, and "unique" location, FWW also told me of hearing his pager and phone going off while they were having sex and his clothes were on a stand or dresser next to them. She told me of thinking out her plan to get dressed quickly, out of the house, and where she would go if his BS came home when they were fucking in his house. She told me of times she did not feel sexual and so gave him a blowjob and he complained about not being able to do her, or he complained that she was not able to spend enough time with him and compared her to other women he had As with who would be with him all afternoon. Often she was meeting with him for a few hours after one event and before another. She had to keep an eye on the clock and “clean-up” for afterwards. When travelling and some evenings there was alcohol involved, a lot of alcohol. Another OM she could not touch prior to sex because he would ejaculate and not be able to go again. Another had a very short penis, and she is a bit of a size queen.
I discount the times FWW said the sex was no good and she did not like it that is just her minimizing damage. But, knowing FWW as I do, the items I list above I know would distract her from focus and enjoyment. I know what sex is like for her when she is unable to relax and feel completely safe. I know they had sex that worked well, one does not joke about how loud someone is during oral sex if they are not “getting their needs met”, but the noteworthy times I believe were a few out of many mundane times. I do believe my FWW when she says thinking about meeting him for sex was usually better than actually having sex with him.
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 9:14 AM, October 18th (Friday)]
Some may disagree with me on this but I would say if the worst you did was call her names out of anger and did not get physical with her, she should be counting her blessings. I wouldn't feel too bad about being angry. I mean, what does she expect? If you were fucking around on her whould she keep it together and be understanding? Doubt it. I'd bet my left nut she'd be all over you like white on rice.
Anger is very normal given the situation and it will pass. Maybe not completely for a while but the sting will lessen and you'll be able to see more clearly. Like others have said, just take some time and start looking at constructive ways to vent. Maybe take up some physical activity to release the pent up tension. Once you are able to get some emotional distance from your WW you'll be able to make a more rational decision on whether to stay or go.
As far as doing things with POSER (ie, OM) that she didn't do with you, thats definitely kicking a guy while he's down. I'm sorry she added that salt to the wound. during my WW's A she started suggested we start doing things that were out of character for her. At the time I was confused and wondered where they were coming from. I later found out it is what her and the OM were doing. Needless to say those things are huge triggers for me and will never happen with her or probably any other woman in the future (I am divorcing BTW).
Just go easy on yourself. Your emotions will be all over the place. It's ok to be mad. But be sure to check yourself. If you feel it coming on and you know it won't be good then remove yourself from that situation immediately. Go take a walk or something and come back when you get yourself back together. Your WW needs to be understanding and a lot more compassionate then she has ever been at this point. I hope she is up for doing that for you.
You got this.
"I don't understand the world today I don't understand what she needs I gave her everything she threw it all away" tom petty
...way ahead of me in R if you know details about your WW A .
Not too far ahead at the same point after dday, I was still getting a lot of TT at 6-7 months. Once I realized there was an option other than D, I made her 'fessing up the details a primary requirement. I wanted to know what I was agreeing to accept, I wanted to take all of the romance and fondness out of her memories, and I did not want lingering secrets to eithe pop-up later and derail us, or fester and corrode us. I pressed for details in MC, things in her story (why she stayed with them so long, why she was so fightened of what I would learn) did not make sense and I was becoming very angry (rage) with the situation and her. Our MC told us I had the right to ask, she had the right to refuse to answer, but that it was clear I was not going to accept no answer. With pressure from me and him she shared enough to give me a realistic picture of the 4 OM over 5 years.
I have said this somewhere else on here but I'll repeat it.
One of the common things that WS's do is a pretty good magic trick. I call it the disappearing power trick. What they do is convince the BS that they have zero power on how the relationship turns out. Once the BS is convinced of this, life can go on anyway the WS chooses for it to go. This is the position that every WS tries to be in after D-day.
They believe they hold all the cards. They believe they have everything that you want and that you have nothing that they want. They make you believe that they are taking you back after being with something better. They constantly have their hand on the explosives plunger prepped to blow up the marriage if things don't go their way. As long as the BS believes they will they won't push to hard or anything that puts any weight on the plunger.
My wife said the following:
This isn't worth it, I am going to leave.
You wouldn't do that to our son would you? (Divorce)
I am going to kill myself. (When things got rough)
I am sure that others have heard the same or worse. I only captured the top 3.
These were all things that were done to manipulate me. Each time they were said I would back down from what I wanted and give in to what she wanted. They were done to elicit a certain behavior that was pleasing to my WS.
They all worked until one day.
When she said she was going to leave I said, "I'll help you pack".
She asked if I would do that to our son, I said "He will get over it".
She said she was going to kill herself, I started proceedings to have her committed.
Things all changed one day and I discovered that I had all the power. As long as you are willing to say "go ahead, press the plunger, I want to see what happens", it's game over for her.
Over a long enough timeline you will get to that place. I want to be married but if I'm not, I am perfectly ok with that and life will go on. If she decides to leave I will wish her well and she knows this.
I hope you get to the point where you know that no matter what happens you will be ok. Once you get there things change.
there was alcohol involved, a lot of alcohol
Alcohol - the social lubricant. Always wondered how many WW's gave themselves permission to do what they did while under the influence of alcohol or drugs. My WW OTOH has been totally alcohol/drug free for over 35 years and did what she did stone-cold sober.