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Reconciliation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Forgiveness, again...
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 1:53 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

must a person have empathy for the other to forgive them? If anyone should have empathy, it should be me, because I did it too.

I said to my IC the other day, I could forgive him in a heartbeat if I decided to end the marriage - because that REALLY puts it in the past.

Or, is that the ultimate consequence of an affair - the loss of the marriage. Do we punish them because we feel they're not punishing themselves enough?


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4930 | Registered: Dec 2010
2married2quit
♂ Member
Member # 36555
Default  Posted: 2:17 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't know details, but from what I can see you two have a unique set of circumstances there. I think whether you divorce or stick it out, both are hard. Sticking it out would be the harder one if you ask me, but in either one, you have to forgive.


BS - Me 43 WS - Her 41
DDAY - June 2012 (found the texts)
DDAY2 - Next Day (found out who) EA
TT- till 9/2012 (some PA)
Married 20yrs. 2kids
Status: in careful R. Sometimes spinning our wheels

Posts: 1335 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: USA
ladies_first
♀ Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 3:47 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Do we punish them because we feel they're not punishing themselves enough?
I want a partner, not a parent.

My vows didn't give me the authority to punish.


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2143 | Registered: Jun 2009
5674emt
♀ Member
Member # 40012
Content  Posted: 6:02 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

9 months from DDay, lots of roller coaster days and therapy, I have joined my WH in repairing the damage from the A. My focus has become, to avoid inflicting punishment. I will ask myself if the discussion about the A is to heal myself or to punish HIM. I have not mastered this yet, but our daughters are blessed by 2 parents encouraging each other.

One big point about this subject is my WH is totally committed to R and making the changes needed to do it. This makes forgiveness something I commit to daily.


BS 53
WH 44
M 14 years at time of DD
2 young daughters
DD 12-8-12
OW=Xfriend
A-3 YEARS and her husband was an accomplice.
In R, IC, & MC Since 1 week after DD. On the mend with the help of God, Friends and Family.

Posts: 89 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Central FL
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 6:11 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Rachel,

What does forgiveness or forgiving mean to you? What would your heart & mind look like if you forgave your husband?


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
Rebreather
♀ Member
Member # 30817
Default  Posted: 6:14 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know in the early days, or maybe even years, I punished my husband to ensure he felt enough pain. Eventually I realized he'd hurt himself enough, I didn't need to layer on any more. I was more interested in his healing that his continued punishment.

I don't know about empathy. Some people believe you forgive for yourself, so I don't think you need empathy for that.


Me BS
Him WH
2 ddays in '07
Recovering.
"The cure for the pain, is the pain." -Rumi

Posts: 6442 | Registered: Jan 2011
Simple
♀ Member
Member # 18814
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am in the belief that forgiveness is for ourselves, not really the person we're forgiving. A truly remorseful person would ask for forgiveness regardless of whether they get it or not. As my FWH has told me, "I asked for forgiveness, whether you forgive me or not doesn't matter I've done my part. Now I'm supposed to forgive myself, I think that's harder."

If you think that D puts everything in the past, think again. Many people repeat their performance over and over... Unless you both fix yourselves, this will only happen again. Just with someone new...

Hugs your way.

[This message edited by Simple at 6:45 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


Love is a choice.

True love is harder to come by than soul mates. True love requires work.

Ignorance can be cured with knowledge. There is no cure for being an idiot.


Posts: 927 | Registered: Mar 2008
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks everyone; peace is what I would have if I can forgive...

Forgiveness; understanding how a person got to the place they did to commit such a horrible act. Being able to say, I get it, I don't approve but I get it.

I'm starting to understand just how very angry with me he must have been to do this twice, especially knowing the hurt himself and seeing how devastated I was the first time.

Of course, I'm not here to catch shrapnel from someone else's poor choices... And that's the rub.
Can't forgive what transpired after the first one yet... Or if...

[This message edited by rachelc at 7:13 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4930 | Registered: Dec 2010
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 7:41 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Forgiveness; understanding how a person got to the place they did to commit such a horrible act. Being able to say, I get it, I don't approve but I get it.

Then I think that part probably does require empathy. But of course, being able to put oneself in another's shoes, even just a little bit, does not equate to condoning the behavior.

I'm starting to understand just how very angry with me he must have been to do this twice, especially knowing the hurt himself and seeing how devastated I was the first time.

Are you able to understand why/how his response to his anger was to have affairs? Is HE able (or willing) to understand his thought process here, or does it simply stop at, "I did it because you did"? Has he ever gone deeper with it?

[This message edited by heartbroken0903 at 7:42 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
rachelc
♀ Member
Member # 30314
Default  Posted: 8:10 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Are you able to understand why/how his response to his anger was to have affairs? Is HE able (or willing) to understand his thought process here, or does it simply stop at, "I did it because you did"? Has he ever gone deeper with it?

Yes. He says he wouldn't have done it had I not done it, which is probably true, as he had never done anything like this before...
I know I'm not responsible for what he did. But my actions precipitated his. He never would have been angry if I hadn't done what I did...
So, what do I owe him? Understanding? Forgiveness? Anything?


his Dday: 2/10
my Ddays: 1/12, 4/12 broken NC 12/12

me (WW/BS): 48
him: (BS/WH)52
4 kiddos in mid 20's

Me: I didn't sign up for this.
Him: you're already in this. All you can do is resign...


Posts: 4930 | Registered: Dec 2010
heartbroken0903
♀ Member
Member # 27879
Default  Posted: 8:36 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So, what do I owe him? Understanding? Forgiveness? Anything?

I think that you "owe" him your best self as a partner.

I think understanding and forgiveness are nice things to strive for. Totally different animal than owing those things.


Me: XWS, 30s, 5-month EA/PA in '09-'10
Husband: XBS, 40s
No kids

Married 2.5 years
D-day 3/6/10
Divorced 5/14/10

Reconciled and remarried.


Posts: 2145 | Registered: Mar 2010 | From: the cat's meow
blakesteele
♂ Member
Member # 38044
Default  Posted: 9:00 PM, September 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My wife never did ask for my forgiveness. Just before my 1 year antiversary I found that I had forgiven her...it was a subtle and quiet event...almost anticlimactic. But it happened.

How did it happen? I am sorry, I cant tell you exactly how I got there. Did I have empathy for her? Yes, I had a type of empathy. I say a type of empathy because the empathy I knew before this trauma had a component of true understanding....and I never have fully understood how my wife could do something so destructive and hurtful to herself, me, and our family. I read another definition of empathy that talked about combining facts and emotions....kind of a mind-heart coming together sort of thing. I experienced this.

I said to my IC the other day, I could forgive him in a heartbeat if I decided to end the marriage - because that REALLY puts it in the past
.

This, I believe, is why people who have experienced adultery in their marriage PLUS have been raped by a stranger, held in concentration camps, experienced the death of a child and other life-altering traumas report that adultery is more traumatic.

It is more traumatic because in other life traumas the thing causing the trauma is so different then adultery....it disappears AFTER the trauma and it was not caused by a loved one. Rape victims report not wanting to take the stand because they want to distance themselves from the offender, it is years (and sometimes never) before concentration camp victims return to the place of their containment. BS many times stay in the same house with the person who brought the trauma into their lives....many times sleeping in the same bed.

NOTE: I recognize the listed traumas as serious trauma and don't mean to make any light of any of them. All are horrible acts.

In the case of adultery, many times a BS and WS decide to learn to R....if we were just to D I can see how it would APPEAR how one could more easily forgive.

But, speaking from a son who can see his parents 30 years AFTER their D...forgiveness is not a given following separation. My Mom is working on this now...after witnessing what my wife and I are attempting to do. If any of us D, it is important that we keep committed to achieving forgiveness.

That trek for me was hard but I did it. I did it while staying married. I would like to think I would have done it had I D....but realistically I think I would have been very tempted to lay all of the blame for the D on my wife and leave it at that....never processing this completely. Processing is painfully hard!!!!

This is seriously hard, trying stuff for both spouses to work through.

After I forgave my wife I asked her why she never asked to be forgiven. Her answer was....I didn't think I had a right to ask for this.

Forgiveness does not guarantee a marriage can successfully R....but I believe it is a necessary step for a person to grow into a healthier person.

I see you working hard on this rachelc....I have seen your posts where you are tired and want to quit....I then see you find the courage to get back up and push forward.

Hang in there.

God be with us all.

[This message edited by blakesteele at 9:11 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]


ME: 42 BH, I don't PM female members
SHE: 38 EA
Married: 15 years
Together: 17 years
D/Day 9-10-12
NC: 10-25-12
NC: Broken early November 2012, OM not respond
2 girls; 7 and 10
Fear is payments on debts you have not

Posts: 3678 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Central Missouri
Topic Posts: 12

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