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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:38 AM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

New guy in JFO (maddmurph) - I confronted her this morning

Could use some support


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 11:39 AM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Got a chuckle out of me at first. But really, I would say that if a person gets to that point in a relationship where you have to go to those extremes, you really need to evaluate why you are staying. I feel bad for the girlfriend more than anything. May not be physical but the psychological and emotional abuse with something like that would be terrible. Although I am guessing if she was that afraid of him he was physical with her.

I hate controlling people.

RB - Oh absolutely. Reading through the article a second time, I see what you mean. Chastity belts go back as far as the Middle Ages and are still in use today for both men and women. But I want my WW to be faithful to me out of her own free will. Otherwise, what's the point?


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I want my WW to be faithful to me out of her own free will. Otherwise, what's the point?

DITTO!!

Takes so much time and energy to police your WW like that. I already have kids. If I have to monitor another "adult" kid too I'll pass on that one.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
damaged71
♂ Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


Guys I just think I had a light bulb moment. This thread just keeps on giving. I think our experiences are very common.

I approached my FWW a few weeks ago to discuss the "why" of it all.

Her response to the why question was always, "I was lonely". After much though I new there was more. The more that was missing was the AND after the first statement.

I told her this I said "what comes after and"? She never could give me an answer.

I think I have it. This is what she should have said.

I was lonely and my need for external validation is so strong I was willing to give up everything for it.

I think in the end, that's really it.

I think my wife is the most beautiful woman I have ever laid eyes on. She knows this because I have told her for 20 years. I got the "you have to because you are my husband" line. When the OM said it she was validated and it was all too easy for her.

Thanks guys, your collective wisdom has helped me.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
doubleboggy
♂ Member
Member # 40622
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And I think you're right. They just don't know how. Why? Is it because they don't love themselves? Is it because they've never had to? Is it because they just aren't capable?

Its they aren't capable BECAUSE they never had to.

ETA: And it's our fault they never had to.

[This message edited by doubleboggy at 12:03 PM, October 10th (Thursday)]


I have became what I have beheld and am content that I have done right. - Elliot Ness

Posts: 84 | Registered: Sep 2013
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:18 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah. Looping back to something really smart somebody said a while back, and paraphrasing (help me with this if you wrote it, or remember it).

We were happy in our M. Therefore, in her eyes, she was a good W.

OTOH, she was miserable. Therefore, we were a bad H.

The reason she was unhappy is there was a hole in her soul where she expected fullness and contentment. And that was because, like so many women, she was used to one side of The Chase, but not the other. That hole can't just be filled with Take, it must also be filled with Give.

So, she was unhappy, knew something was missing, and didn't have the practice or the skill set to do anything about it. POSER comes along and offers to "fill 'er up".

Trouble is, that's just more Take. Doesn't even scratch the missing Give. Some realize the A is a hopeless substitute and give them up forever. Others think they just need more, and go into a LTA at the extreme. The rest of the WW's fall in the middle someplace.

How did they get broken like this? Society, FOO, and US. We can't fix the first two, and it took me way too long to realize my part in it. I thought I could just love her like crazy, didn't need to train her like a good hunting dog.

Now, when my W calls, my phone barks. "That's my bitch," I say, lovingly.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 12:25 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was not that unhappy in the M.
To FWWs thinking that was proof that she was being a good W.
OTOH, she was miserable, and that was proof that I was being a bad H and did not love her.

- Atsenaotie

True.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This thread does move fast. And IMO this is the best thread on SI.

The rough part is that when I read and try and catch up I will read one post and think I want to add something to that. But then I need to read 20 more posts to catch up and by the time I do I have thought of several other things to add and when I reach the end of my reading I have forgotten most if not all of them.

About what has been talked about.

I think that the knowing how to pursue and word to fix a relationship problem a WW has created is strongly linked to their ability to feel empathy. Without empathy any *fixing* that comes from a WW amounts to only *damage control*.

I dont think having empathy or not having empathy is like a light on or off. All people probably have it but its a matter of degree. Some people just have less of that ability than others. And I dont really think this is a trait that can be learned. Faked maybe but not learned.

And maybe empathy is like the moral compass. Some feel it more strongly than others.

I believe though that our recovery should not depend on our WW pursuing us or having empathy or even having a moral compass. Just as we cant fix them. They cant fix us. All they can do is prove that they are worthy of our staying with them. Our healing is on us.

I think there are some basics though. FULL disclosure and FULL transparency.

Full disclosure not so that we can forgive. But instead so we can know who it is we are really living with. My WWs true personality was laid bare in her actions that surround her LTA.

Full transparency is only important if we decide to stay in the M. Obviously. Its necessary so that we feel safe. But even if WW is still hiding things from me. And mine is I am sure. I have trust enough in myself that I will eventually find out what she is up to and will be able to handle whatever situation comes up.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 12:34 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If I have to monitor another "adult" kid too I'll pass on that one.

Right! I want a partner not someone that needs a piggyback ride through life.

I was lonely and my need for external validation is so strong I was willing to give up everything for it.

Like my tag line says....that's a moment of realization. And I think your dead on!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 12:41 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I want a partner not someone that needs a piggyback ride through life.

I think there are SOME out there that want to be taken care of. To me that isnt a marriage because a marriage is about being partners in life.

Disclaimer. I said SOME, not all.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I dont know if the unwritten rules of SI ban rewriting a post, but Tred fetched me the original quote and it reads so much better with it I couldnt help myself.

(A tip of the hat to Atsenaotie for the original insight and a fervent wish you are doing well.)

Yeah. Looping back to something Atsenaotie said a while back:

I was not that unhappy in the M.
To FWWs thinking that was proof that she was being a good W.
OTOH, she was miserable, and that was proof that I was being a Bad H and did not love her.

The reason she was unhappy is there was a hole in her soul where she expected fullness and contentment. And that was because, like so many women, she was used to one side of The Chase, but not the other.

That hole can't just be filled with Take, it must also be filled with Give.

So, she was unhappy, knew something was missing, and didn't have the practice or the skill set to do anything about it. POSER comes along and offers to "fill 'er up".

Trouble is, that's just more Take. Doesn't even scratch the missing Give. Some WW's quickly realize the A is a hopeless substitute and give them up forever. Others think they just need more, and go into a LTA at the extreme. The rest of the WW's fall in the middle someplace.

How did they get broken like this? Society, FOO, and Us. We can't fix the first two, and it took me way too long to realize my part in it. I thought I could just love her like crazy, didn't need to train her like a good hunting dog.

Now, when my W calls, my phone barks. "That's my bitch," I say, lovingly.


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
damaged71
♂ Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


This really explains everything for me. I am just shocked that it's so simple.

I was lonely and my need for external validation is so strong I was willing to give up everything for it.

This is why facebook became my wife's obsession. It's like validation crack cocaine. It all makes perfect sense.

Before facebook came along my wife and I validated each other so to speak. Once FB showed up her validation was from FB. She would check it constantly. Small validations by other all day long. She thrived on it. She was never content just being her. If someone didn't tell her she was awesome she fell apart.

I made her get off of facebook after D-day. She agreed but the wheels really fell off of her sanity then and I didn't realize why then but it all makes perfect sense.

Facebook is Validation Meth


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 1:13 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

to fix a relationship problem a WW has created is strongly linked to their ability to feel empathy.

Razor really could have quoted that whole post.

The reason I asked is that MIL really posses NO empathy for others. I always though my ww did posses empathy. But now I see that for 4 years she had none for me or our family. It really is breath taking that her life revolved around the poser but she still managed to fake her family. She admits that she had no regard for what the A was doing to our marriage or what it would do to the family. It simply didn't matter. I'm wondering if she can realize the problem and actually work to have an understanding of empathy going forward.

Facebook is Validation Meth

Nice! Why would you post a picture of dinner if not to get others to comment on how good it looks.
*Full disclaimer: I once did this for some cheesecakes I made from scratch (crusts and all) for my wife's bday. One had a chocolate ganache and one had homemade strawberry jam. I was damn proud and needed some validation!


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 1:26 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was lonely and my need for external validation is so strong I was willing to give up everything for it.

Yup. Hammer meet nail. Wow....


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
damaged71
♂ Member
Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 3:59 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So in light of my revelation I can answer a question about a situation I posted just two pages ago.

On another note we went to her high school reunion. Yes the OM graduated from the same class. I think I went to make sure he couldn't.

Several of her friends told my wife how lucky she was to have someone that treated her the way I did. One of her friends (6' tall blond fitness competitor) literally stroked my arm and told my wife "I need a Damaged71 in my life" and asked if I had a brother. I just played it off and smiled.

Anyway, the next day my wife had a completely different perspective about us and me. She was all about telling me "I'll love you forever" and so on. There was a visible change in how she acted the next day and ever since.

The reason for her change in behavior is because I had value in her friends eyes. I provide a lifestyle for her that they envied. If her friends find value in me, that must mean that my compliments to her have value and are worthy. If I can provide meaningful validation than I should be cherished.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 305 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
ascian
♂ Member
Member # 40304
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We were happy in our M. Therefore, in her eyes, she was a good W.
OTOH, she was miserable. Therefore, we were a bad H.

Thanks for this paraphrase, MoreWould, I missed Atsenaotie's comment the first time around.

This really put some stuff in perspective for me that my wife has said to me about her affair. It doesn't fix anything, but perspective helps some.

It also brings to mind an old IT saying (and probably engineering before that):

If we try to fix the problem, we could be here all night. But if we fix the blame we'll be done right away.

[This message edited by ascian at 4:22 PM, October 10th (Thursday)]


Me - BH 39
Her - FWW 36
D-Day: 8/13
Working on R

Posts: 262 | Registered: Aug 2013 | From: Midwest
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 5:21 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was walking behind an older, grey haired couple the other day when the wife reached out and grabbed his hand. I almost cried right there on the street.

If the person who wrote this lives in my town, he could have been following us. Now what?

I apologize for losing track of the man who wrote this.

This thread moves too fast for me.


FBH (me) - 65+, FWW (her) - 65+, Married 45+, together almost 49 (as of January, 2014)
DDay - 12/2010
Almost Recovered
I share my own experience not because I'm a good model but because it's the only experience I know.

Posts: 8917 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 5:36 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If the person who wrote this lives in my town, he could have been following us. Now what?

The truth of this lies in the fact that no one really knows whats going on in anothers relationship. Ask yourself how many people you pass on the street have been cheated on? Maybe many dont even know they have. Others have but wearing a *BH* badge really isnt something to be proud of.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3086 | Registered: Sep 2007
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 6:02 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No kidding, the few people IRL who know about my wife's affair were floored by the news. But we have our good days in R and often look like the happy couple with the 4 cute kids. No doubt the envy of some. I don't look at any couple, old or young, and assume anything anymore.

But I get the sentiment. Sometimes I look at couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50 years and get this sinking feeling inside, thinking that the WW and I will likely be there some day with her A a permanent part of our history. What could have been...

ETA: I edited and cross-posted with SDWB and Razor. Edited the part they quoted for clarity.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 6:08 PM, October 10th (Thursday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
SuperDuperWonderboy
♂ Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 6:05 PM, October 10th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

But I get the sentiment. Sometimes I look at couples that have been together 30, 40 or 50 years and sometimes get this sinking feeling inside. What could have been...

I don't know about you fellas. But I am only do R with her so I don't have to think "what could have been" If I start to reach a point 15 years from now and I am still suffering, I hope I have the strength to just leave.


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1267 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
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