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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 11:36 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had no dignity before the A, and the lack of remorse and other behaviors I see tell me I will have none, as well as no respect if I choose to stay.

During the time between D-Day 1 and D-Day 2, about a year and a half later, my thoughts did not revolve around preserving my dignity but only revenge. WW and these men would pay dearly. What God has joined together let no man tear asunder. I won't write here what I was planning but my little boy would have grown up with no parents had I gone through with it and I just couldn't do that to him. That in my mind was still the right decision at the time.

Fast forward many years later and I can see the toll it took on me - fear, humiliation, anger, loneliness, etc. I laid down my life for my son. There's no pat on the back for that and there shouldn't be because a father provides for and protects his children.

After all I went through, WW still is incapable of treating me with honor and respect because she has none for herself. One can only give to others what one himself or herself possesses. So I no longer base my sense of dignity and self-worth on what she thinks or says, nor do I seek affirmation or validation from WW because that is a fool's errand.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Basically the doc feels that until I'm able to shift either my behavior or beliefs to line up with one another, it's going to be hard to get my PTSD under control. It sounds so simple...but apparently I suck at it. One of the main reasons is some of my previous trauma (I've talked about some of it before) really makes infidelity hard to "accept" for lack of a better word. I'm not saying I'm stubborn (my wife probably would) but that I am struggling to reconcile with myself.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3278 | Registered: Dec 2011
gutpunch33
♂ New Member
Member # 36484
Default  Posted: 11:40 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP, my wife started going through my phone and searched my email. Sounds to me like she is projecting on to you. If she finds something even remotely inappropriate out of you, then she can say "see, you have a problem too!".

I went ballistic on my wife when she started challenging a text she found to my best friend who was joking about bringing a bottle of bourbon and a stripper pole when he came to stay the weekend. (and one of the only people outside of the MC that knows about her being a WW)

Somehow, my wife really wants to believe that cheating "could happen to anyone" and is now super vigilant about MY BEHAVIOR! FTN! I let her have no wiggle room for believing that non-sense.


Posts: 25 | Registered: Aug 2012
Razor
♂ Member
Member # 16345
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm sick of feeling so torn. Of doing what needs to be done but knowing that a little part of me dies every time I do it.

This should be the motto around here.

Like pretty much everyone else I stayed because of my kids. I was also getting close to retirement and the idea of WW getthing 50%+ and alimony and child support just did not work with me.

Maybe we all stay for the wrong reasons. Maybe the reason we stay with our WW is out of love. But what our WW showed us is that our love is not returned. In some cases our WW are not capable of that emotion as we understand it.

No solutions. Life is what it is. We are dealt the life we have and all we can do is make the best of it we can. The parts we can not improve we must endure.


Forgive and forget = Relive and regret.


Posts: 3058 | Registered: Sep 2007
flup
♂ Member
Member # 21259
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Been struggling a bit lately... god this sucks sometimes.

Sometimes?

My wife and I have been talking a lot, which is good. One of my biggest struggles with her right now though is that the 'spark' is gone. I care about her, we're friendly with each other, but it just seems like that special something, that connection, is gone. It's been gone for a while. I think it was dying a bit before the A, but whatever was left got euthanized on D-Day.

Amen. I'll raise my hand in complete agreement to ^^^!

Am I alone in this? Is this normal? And if it is... does it ever come back? Can I ever look at her again and feel that special connection? Am I just being a sentimental sap?

I don't know... But, unless we're given a lobotomy, how can you just set aside all the lying, betrayals, emotionaly FU's that have been heaved our way?

One of the biggest affronts I can't put aside, is how she told our first MC (in 2002) that she would never tell me about the A. Instead, we spent our time in MC then, going over how I had been a bad husband, and didn't help with any housework after I got home from my job. The marriage problems were all my fault, and she was fine with me taking the blame after she had been gobbling cock and putting no work into our relationship. And, then, to repeat the process 6 years later with her college professor...

I want to feel a connection with her again, I just don't. It's like I don't know how anymore.

Even if she does "get it" and is remorseful, would it be enough? Can a fWW resusitate a dead marriage? Or does it turn into a frankenstein marriage that's never really as good (at least, as you thought it was!).

She can be a very good woman, despite what happened. She can be kind, caring, understanding. She is a great mother to our children. She is attractive. But she is also the woman who broke my heart...

And she can also be evil and secretive and lying... It's difficult to look at her anymore and get a nice feeling from it. Personally, I'm always wondering what it would be like to start over. I had lunch with a wonderful, beautiful woman in Newark the other day, she worked for a large company and was on her way to Lisbon. We hit it off quite well, and it was SO nice to be able to talk to someone without this "cloud of doubt" surrounding us. I'll never see her again, but it let me see what being on my own might be like, again. It just might be nice!

Give me some hope here guys. Does this stuff just take time? Am I just being stupid?

No one here is ever being stupid... we're trying to think with our hearts, and I don't think that ever works. There's always hope - this wouldn't be much of a world without hope... I, for one, am hoping for you!


Me: BS 55
Her: fWW 50

D-Day #1: 12 Aug. 2008. WW's 2nd affair w/college teacher.
D-Day #2: 18 June 2009. Affair #1 with neighbor was fall of 2002 - while I was coping with the fallout from 9/11.
Still trying to R.
22 years married


Posts: 426 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Ohio
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 11:59 AM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Basically the doc feels that until I'm able to shift either my behavior or beliefs to line up with one another, it's going to be hard to get my PTSD under control. It sounds so simple.

well yeah, that's what cognitive dissonance is made of.
simple....hardly.
we don't really just "choose" our beliefs, we develop them...over our lifespan. So "shifting" them requires more effort than just, say, picking a new one.
You have an idea of who you are and what you stand for. You were a "one shot" guy, so you thought.
but you're not, You are not somehow less than who you thought you were, just a bit different.
The way you are handling this is the way that's right for YOU.
Try to be okay with that.
If you are okay with how you are behaving, then your beliefs will eventually catch up.
If you are NOT okay with your behavior, figure out why, and decide what side of the fence is more important to you.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2380 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
RyeBread
♂ Member
Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 12:02 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So I no longer base my sense of dignity and self-worth on what she thinks or says, nor do I seek affirmation or validation from WW because that is a fool's errand.

Absolutely agree. Perhaps my phrasing was wrong. I was mostly refering to the level of dignity/respect I have in STBXWW's eyes, and how that affects her attitude towards me.

We can't love others till we love ourselves. And in my situation the constant tearing down of me by STBXWW was something I did not see changing, even if we R. I don't deserve to live in an environment where I am the whipping post. No matter what kind of resolve someone has, eventually it will get to you on some level. It had already gotten to me and the A was the last in a long line of disrespect.

And maybe what really is happening is that I face a level of abuse that goes beyond the A, a separate issue all together that gets lumped into my decision. Perhaps I am mixing the two when they shouldn't be mixed. Either way, both are good reasons to GTFO!

[This message edited by RyeBread at 12:04 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 956 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You were a "one shot" guy

Hey now, that was supposed to be a secret! At least I like to cuddle

At least this is making me a little psychic - I see a new BMW in my doctor's future...


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3278 | Registered: Dec 2011
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 12:07 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Personally, I'm always wondering what it would be like to start over. I had lunch with a wonderful, beautiful woman in Newark the other day, she worked for a large company and was on her way to Lisbon. We hit it off quite well, and it was SO nice to be able to talk to someone without this "cloud of doubt" surrounding us. I'll never see her again, but it let me see what being on my own might be like, again. It just might be nice!

Been there, done that. Spent a couple hours talking with a woman I met on a plane in Charlotte. Nicest person you could ever meet. It was just nice to have a conversation that was free of all the baggage and the emotional trauma. And then she got on her plane and I got on mine, and though I only knew her for 2 hours (I don't even remember her name), I could have cried over the loss of what she represented.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 12:24 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tried,
it takes time, man.
and a lot of effort. I doubt your doc was suggesting any do or die, shit or get off the pot type stuff. PTSD is very difficult to deal with, add in new trauma and its a fucking disaster!
Like is often suggested, focus on yourself.
PTSD thrives on idle time, keep busy if you aren't ready to process(that's what PTSD is, slooow disorganized processing).
If you are on antidepressants, and things get worse or don't improve, question the AD's. There are studies out there to read on it.
You're right, the struggle is between you and you. Honestly, and I've posted about this awhile back, I think that struggle is really what makes this so hard for EVERYONE.
We all coast, doing what worked yesterday, until it doesn't anymore.
That doesn't mean that what worked yesterday was wrong, it means it doesn't apply today.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2380 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 3:57 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had lunch with a wonderful, beautiful woman in Newark the other day, she worked for a large company and was on her way to Lisbon.

Spent a couple hours talking with a woman I met on a plane in Charlotte. Nicest person you could ever meet.

Not trying to call you gents out, no doubt this was your perceptions of these ladies. It may well be true in both cases.

But I'd bet the farm that's exactly the way my WW and OM described each other after their first encounter, when they caught up on old times (they knew each other briefly in the early 90s through mutual friends) and he listened thoughtfully to her express her frustrations with life.

Everyone's on their best behavior at first. Not to sound cynical - it looks like WW and I are on the road to R - but if it somehow doesn't work out and I find myself in the dating scene one day, I'm going to have to get to know someone real well before things get serious or I even start making judgments about their personality or character. WW is one of the last persons on earth I would have expected to betray me.

Maybe that's cynicism, but it is what it is.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
M for almost 18 years
4 kids

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal - not to worry, I don't feel 'called out'.

Please remember that both of these experiences were at airports with people that we knew we would never see again. Not sure if you're part of the 'travel' crowd, but these kind of meetings are very common, and not in any way unhealthy. In fact, I don't think they relate at all to the early relationships that a WW and the OM had. In those cases there was always an expectation, on one or the other's part, that they would see each other again. When you strike up a conversation with someone at an airport or on a plane, there's no need to be 'on your best behavior', because there going to get on their plane, you're going to get on yours, and that's the end of that. I've had some of the most open, honest, and refreshing conversations with people at airports, and I think it is for that reason. No need to make yourself look good for someone who you will never meet again.

That being said, having that same type of conversation with someone that you know you will see on a regular basis is probably a bit unhealthy and may reek a bit of what the WW and OM did at the beginning. Not to say that men or women can't have friends of the opposite sex, but it can complicate things.

God I hope some of that made sense.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 4:28 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ots, I think the problem is operating on the assumption that these are people you'll never see again. Getting into a long conversation with a cool woman doesn't banish the potential for stupid choices like exchanging phone numbers or romanticizing her enough that she stays in your head keeping your SO out of that space and priming shit for a chance second encounter just because you're unlikely to meet again.

I don't think talking to people like that is unhealthy at all, but I do think it's a good idea to be aware of the very real similarities involved there as Sal pointed out. I doubt every affair starts with two people intending to meet a second time after their first conversation. Not a bad thing to chat with people, just.. I dunno, awareness is important I guess.

[This message edited by StillGoing at 4:28 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7077 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

ontheslope, that does make sense to a large degree. And I was part of the travel crowd from '04-'07, and remember many similar conversations with women and men. How quickly we forget.

Still, I think it's human nature to make people want to like us or think of us as interesting. Besides, imo most people are genuinely nice and care about others and don't want to seem rude or unapproachable ...except for the guy waiting to board who thinks that everyone within a 50-yard radius should hear his end of his cell phone conversation about the big sale he just closed with the customer in Tulsa, but I digress.

Nice or not, it doesn't mean that there isn't some deep-seated fuckedupedness, though. My WW would be Ex. A. She is genuinely a nice and caring person. She is also an adulteress and the person who has caused me the most pain in my life, by far.

I guess my concern would be that it would be easy for a guy in our situation to use such random meetings with engaging women in places like airports as examples of what life could be like if we could only move on from our WWs. For all we know these pleasant strangers are themselves WWs who are violating boundaries by having these types of conversations in the first place.

I could be overthinking this. Or under-thinking it. I'm not a Missourian but I now have a "show me" attitude. Don't put much stock in appearances or words anymore.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
M for almost 18 years
4 kids

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
ontheslope
♂ Member
Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 5:04 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

except for the guy waiting to board who thinks that everyone within a 50-yard radius should hear his end of his cell phone conversation about the big sale he just closed with the customer in Tulsa

God I hate that guy.

I guess my concern would be that it would be easy for a guy in our situation to use such random meetings with engaging women in places like airports as examples of what life could be like if we could only move on from our WWs

Very true - Grass is greener thinking, as I call it. But I think most of us here are well aware of those thoughts. We're wiser for our experiences, I would like to think.

I could be overthinking this. Or under-thinking it. I'm not a Missourian but I now have a "show me" attitude. Don't put much stock in appearances or words anymore.

I agree with the "show me" attitude. Best practice in my book, if you ask me. Not that anyone did


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:38 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Somehow, my wife really wants to believe that cheating "could happen to anyone" and is now super vigilant about MY BEHAVIOR! FTN! I let her have no wiggle room for believing that non-sense.

The over/under on the length of time between when your WW stops fucking other men and when she starts digging into your relationships to decide which are slippery slopes or aren't "friends of the marriage" is roughly 3 weeks.

Apparently not fucking other people is one of those things that's easier to manage in theory than in practice.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
1985
♂ Member
Member # 28171
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sal beat me to this on the subject of how wonderful some other woman is to talk to. I have a good friend. Thru a bizarre set of circumstances I learned that 25 years ago his W had a LTA. If you talked to her you would say how kind and wonderful she is. You would say it about mine. Probably the same for many of your wives. And maybe each of them are. But being able to be nice and wonderful to others didn't stop them from cheating.
To me the point is --- many of you feel indifferent now. You feel you have lost the spark with your W. that you don't know if staying with her is worth the emotional cost of trying to reconcile. And those emotions are fair enough for you to have. We all can imagine hitting that point.
But it is important to understand that as you ponder whether to stay or go; whether to keep trying to re-generate that spark, don't be lured into deciding based on the thought that the world outside will be nothing but rainbows because some random woman you visited with on a plane or elsewhere was so kind and cool.
Maybe the world outside would be that great for you. But maybe that woman was my friends W.
make your decision on whether you prefer to stay with your
W or not. Is she worth the continued effort of trying. Not on some speculation that the outside will only contain better than what you have.
By the way, the spark can come back. More than once. A lot of work. But it can. It did for me.


Me-BH 63
Her-fWW 63
DDay: June 1985. 5 years after A ended
DDay June, 1985
DDay June 1985
Still married - actually in love
2 grown kids; 4 grandkids

Posts: 588 | Registered: Apr 2010 | From: Midwest - large city
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:36 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm with '85.

Plus, when you fuck with that rule, you negatively swing the 3 week over/under and otherwise invalidate a phenomenon that's so predictable, it's practically a mathematical theorem.

Don't fuck with the maths.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
MoreWould
♂ Member
Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 6:46 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought where this was going was just a recognition of how nice it is to have a low-drama, low-baggage, low-emotion chat with an attractive woman. For years after DDay, that just doesn't happen for most of us.

"We now return to our regularly scheduled programming" just doesn't come around for a long, long time. We miss normal.

After I got through my RA ONS, I decided that what I wanted was good boundaries that allowed me to have good friends that happen to be women, and a level of empathy that also let me have good male friends that could talk about "anything".

After some years of that, I discovered that the spark had returned with my W. Sometimes, a little "normal" is a powerful drug, especially when you're not "getting any" at home. By then, I was.

Now, I have a few good woman friends, but every single one of them is a friend of my marriage. I don't accept an exceptions, imitations, or deviations.

Trouble is, normal is so damned abnormal these days, you really do have to look for it. That's why, in the end, I decided I liked my chances with FWW better than with anybody new. Didn't make the choice easy, and the doing of it was really, really hard.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 6:48 PM, October 3rd (Thursday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, October 3rd (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Plus, when you fuck with that rule, you negatively swing the 3 week over/under and otherwise invalidate a phenomenon that's so predictable, it's practically a mathematical theorem.

Say what?


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
M for almost 18 years
4 kids

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
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