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Newest Member: ThrownAwayTwice (43226)

I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 10:21 AM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lots of people don't have a sense of humor. The author and her boyfriend do, and they seem to enjoy their life together. Good for them
That's really my takeaway from that as well.
The article is really about the condemnation heaped on him despite his doing nothing. How demeaning it is for her despite it being a perfectly normal thing.
Yeah...one of the commentators said something along the lines of it only being a tongue-in-cheek thing if she doesn't go on to perpetuate it....I disagree. If she felt like he'd be angry, or disappointed, or enraged (even in a small way) if she didn't make said sandwich, then I'd agree. Then she's doing it for the wrong reasons, because he'd be emotionally manipulating her. I mean, within the context of relationships we all do things for our partners that enforce stereotypes, and not necessarily because we feel particularly coerced to do so. Within our relationships we should feel free to move between roles, both of the 'traditional' and 'non-traditional' varieties.
It reminds me very much of how everything about my STBXWW's affair was my fault, I must have done something to cause it, I clearly deserved it, and oh yeah, when I told her to go NC with her AP and the toxic friends who were co-conspirators in the whole thing, she got a flood of outraged facebook messages highlighting the relevant sections of the abusive spouse checklist (trying to isolate from friends, trying to control social interactions, etc.).
THIS ^^^ is something I have spent a lot of time thinking about, even before the A. Boundary-enforcing as an adult male can be very tricky when it comes to societal expectations. The cultural meme tends to be that guys want/demand obedient wives, even if it doesn't always play out that way in real life. So when you have something like infidelity that goes down, and the guy dramatically re-evaluates the way he goes about the business of relationships, you see the "controlling" tag applied to guys who are really just being assertive about enforcing some boundaries. Case in point, I followed a link from a post on this site to a page that detailed how a NPD male partner would act, and all I could think was "....that just sounds to me like a guy who got cheated on and is now done taking your shit/assuming you know dick about relationships." Which doesn't mean that the site was or wasn't correct in it's assumptions, only that it does FEEL to me, as a adult male in a relationship in Western society, that when we as men make a move in an assertive direction with our relationships, it gets pegged as 'controlling', no matter where the starting point or impetus was.
I must have done something to cause it, I clearly deserved it

Last point: It's also us guys who enforce this to some degree as well...prior to all this, if a buddy would've confessed to me that his wife had an affair, my first thought would've been, "What a whore." quickly followed up with, "I wonder what he did wrong...?" so that I could avoid the same mistakes.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 10:22 AM, September 29th (Sunday)]


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1617 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 10:34 AM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's also us guys who enforce this to some degree as well...prior to all this, if a buddy would've confessed to me that his wife had an affair, my first thought would've been, "What a whore." quickly followed up with, "I wonder what he did wrong...?" so that I could avoid the same mistakes.

I can't deny that. That knowledge is one of the things that makes it so difficult. Right out of the gate you have to assume that you will be alone in doing this, because you are pretty sure that will be everyone else's reaction as well.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 11:56 AM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Aesir,

The mods asked, I will answer. Thank you for posting the "sandwich" article. An interesting metaphor and microcosm of a lot of what the dudes in the world are facing. Yes, there are double standards everywhere, A's just bring them into stark relief.

Personally, although the article triggered me a little bit, I didn't fail to see the humor in it at all. Or the deeper message.

In our case, growing up in the sixties, we were open to knocking down the divisions between traditional sex roles. We both had good jobs, but my W won the IPO lottery and ended up making more money. We shared the housekeeping, but I did most of the cooking. Because I enjoy it, and frankly, I'm a lot better cook than she is.

The one that got out of hand was I thought that since guys were supposed to be the randy ones, I could affair-proof our M by staying faithful. Fail.

And, this being decades before SI, we didn't have any proven path to follow and we messed up our R compared to current best practice. What did work was "small kindnesses". We didn't make each other sandwiches, but we both did a lot of things for the other out of the simple joy of making the other person happy.

We can repurpose an old Buddhist saying for this:

Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.

Into

Before adultery, chop wood and carry water. After adultery, chop wood and carry water.

Or, from the Holy Book of Garp:

When you don't feel normal, do something normal.

It's crazy, but it actually works. So, if she wants to make her BF sandwiches, and it makes them both happy in their own way, then I'm all for it. Sex roles be damned!


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 12:37 PM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wrt the reaction of "What did he do wrong" - that is a fucked up truth, yeah. Of the two guys I talked to about it, one was a BH and understood. The other was a WH and "Well, what were you doing that she felt she needed to do that?" kind of shit.

I think that comes out of a combination of thinking that if you play to the stereotype - do things to be a good spouse and keep her happy then she won't have a reason to be unhappy, and the stupid idea that the environment somehow contributes to the decision to cheat. As if I'd be superhusband and built her a 423 room mansion and she'd been happy because everything was perfect, then since it was such a wonderful environment there wouldn't have been any infidelity.

What did I do wrong? Trusted her I guess.

Are there any affair stories where the guy involves himself in an affair the audience is supposed to consider justified? Like the equivalent to a woman cheating on a husband who is abusive/neglectful/insert villain trait here. There must be but I am under the impression that the Male Protagonist Hero is generally expected to deal with his crazy ice-queen bitch wife as an honorable gentleman and hope she dies of natural causes or something instead of saying fuck this mommy dearest shit and run off with the maid.

There are probably a lot of them and they just don't show up on my radar because I don't fall into the demographic.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
7yrsflushed
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Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wrt the reaction of "What did he do wrong" - that is a fucked up truth, yeah. Of the two guys I talked to about it, one was a BH and understood. The other was a WH and "Well, what were you doing that she felt she needed to do that?" kind of shit.
Same with me. I almost got into a fight with my best friend after a mini college reunion with the fellas a few months ago. We are all drinking and the topic goes to my impending divorce. We talk and after awhile he says and I quote, "so 7yrs come on man, she cheated for over 3 years, what did you do?" Stop the fucking presses, cue the record scratch, and any other looney tunes sound you can think of for that moment when shit is about to get real. Long story short I eventually had to just walk away and agree to disagree with the following parting wisdom for my friend. "I feel for you because how you feel is how I used to feel until it happened to me now let's get back to drinking before I fuck you up."

That shit is precisely the reason that it took me so long to even tell anyone about the A.

Those types of discussions don't bother me anymore but I still have more than enough bullshit I am still working through with myself. You would figure once she's gone everything gets better but nope there is no fast forward button on getting your head back on straight.


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1585 | Registered: May 2011
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 9:10 AM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't need her to make me a sandwich. I can make my own damn sandwich. What I want is truth and intimacy. WW has tried to use cooking as a means to escape fulfilling my wants and needs.

Btw anyone else here have a wife who after yelling at you walks around humming to herself? Unsettling to say the least. There was a lot of humming this weekend.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
ontheslope
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Default  Posted: 10:14 AM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uhm... no. No humming. If I get yelled at because she's pissed then afterward I just get the silent treatment while she 'processes' the incident.

But I agree... as much as my W making food for me is nice, it is openness and honesty and intimacy and bonding that I really want. But...right now she has a hard time with all of those things.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 10:44 AM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

No humming here either. That would be weird to me too Kite. Sounds like you and I had similar weekends.

STBX is in mega meltdown mode. I did a lot of woodrot repair over the weekend on the house. As I am working on the house I am getting lambasted with how I don't do anything around the house, how I don't care, how I am unfeeling, etc etc. All this while I am getting my hands cut to shit, sunburned, achy joints, and dirty as hell. All mutherfucking weekend. I tried to be calm and engage at different times but she just won't stop. I listen but it's like she can't accept that her feelings are her responsibility. Emotional diarhea best describes it. I am fried. I get up this morning and she is following me around as I get ready for work, still going on and on. Three days now, nonstop. I'm sure I'll be hearing it more when I get home. I try to tell her that I can't be repeatedly talked at about her perceived slights and resentments in life. I get demonized or dehumanized to suit how she percieves things. I really think she is on some kind of psychological spectrum. She is a basket case. Her A was the tipping point. I think it changed something inside her head, seriously. Maybe she masked it better before, but she is all kinds of fucked up now.

We are still in the house for financial reasons mostly and we came to an agreement on a plan to get things squared away before D. Now I think it was a stalling tactic to have a longer pitty party. I worry about my SS. But at this point money be damned. Cardboard boxes and soup kitchens are almost a welcome thought to this.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
Mr. Kite
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Default  Posted: 12:10 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Uhm... no. No humming. If I get yelled at because she's pissed then afterward I just get the silent treatment while she 'processes' the incident.

That's normally the way she handles being pissed off at me as well. Maybe she figured out that the 180 pretty much nullifies that course of action and moved on to a new strategy. What's next, cracking her knuckles?

Here's something else that ticks me off - she'll be yelling, the phone rings, and she talks in a normal voice and even laughs as if nothing negative just went on.

Her A was the tipping point. I think it changed something inside her head, seriously. Maybe she masked it better before, but she is all kinds of fucked up now.

QFT. Hope you eventually find some kind of peace after this comes to a conclusion.

WW has turned into Jack Nicholson. She actually quoted this to me word for word with the same snarl.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
RyeBread
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Default  Posted: 12:31 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She actually quoted this to me word for word with the same snarl.

lol...had the same thing thrown at me too. Hard to handle the truth when you know you don't have all of it.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 957 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
still-living
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Default  Posted: 12:45 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Btw anyone else here have a wife who after yelling at you walks around humming to herself? Unsettling to say the least. There was a lot of humming this weekend.

Service (including sex without intimacy) as my wife's love language, 100%. When she wanted her own loving, she requested that I cook and clean, lol, but it's not this way anymore.


BH(me)47
WW 47 FOO Issues
DDay 11/09 Coworker
High School Sweethearts
Married 06/91
8 months TT
Sons 19 and 14

My dog farted, startled himself, wondered where the noise came from. I wish my life was as simple.


Posts: 629 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Ches
Ascendant
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Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just had a young lady ask me "if a misogynist is someone who gives massages."


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1617 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
StillGoing
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Default  Posted: 1:37 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just had a young lady ask me "if a misogynist is someone who gives massages."

I'm guessing it's even better in context.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
doubleboggy
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Default  Posted: 1:43 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

lol...had the same thing thrown at me too. Hard to handle the truth when you know you don't have all of it.


Amen brother Amen


I have became what I have beheld and am content that I have done right. - Elliot Ness

Posts: 84 | Registered: Sep 2013
5454real
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Default  Posted: 1:58 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's time to start worrying when she starts talking to her index finger and repeating Redrum Redrum over and over.


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2086 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Tred
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Default  Posted: 1:59 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's time to start worrying when she starts talking to her index finger and repeating Redrum Redrum over and over.

Or better yet, you start doing it.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 2:34 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think it's time to start worrying when she starts talking to her index finger and repeating Redrum Redrum over and over.

Good point. We're not yet at that stage of lunacy. Glad I'm not at this stage yet either...


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
ontheslope
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Default  Posted: 2:35 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Kite man.... I hate to say it, but that just sounds creepy. Like "hide the steak knives" creepy.

In all honesty, I think she either does it subconsciously, or she's purposely doing it to draw attention to the fact that she's mad at you. It's her way of reminding you that you've been a bad boy and made her mad.

But who knows.

Like I said. Hide the steak knives.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
atsenaotie
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Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 3:39 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Btw anyone else here have a wife who after yelling at you walks around humming to herself?

Not hummingn but singing is #3 on my "How I know She is Upset List"

#1: cleaning
#2: detatched and withdrawn
#3: singing while withdrawn and cleaning
#4: excessive attention on DS and DDs

I really wish number 1 or 2 was "She tells me she is upset and why". The good news (?) is that I cannot remember her yelling at me for anything since about a year after dday when she started her work on her issues.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3967 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
h0peless
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Member # 36697
Default  Posted: 3:41 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

With my ex, "Listening to Maroon 5" was her tell. I knew she was really pissed off about something when she listened to that crap.

Posts: 1323 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: Arizona
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