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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 3:21 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got your pumpkin cannon right here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=906EM1z7Xxk


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 3:22 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OM was kind of a stereotypical bad boy - blue collar, tattooed, divorced, muscular, chases women in dance clubs every weekend. That would fit some's definition of an "alpha" I guess, while others would look upon him as anything but. Alpha implies leadership, respect from other men, having followers, being a top dog, etc.
I think the real key is that WWs that want a quote-unquote Alpha Male (or claim to) are really looking at the outside characteristics and behaviors that once-upon-an-evolutionary-time indicated Alpha males.

Of course, the problem now is that the entire cultural idea of an Alpha Male as a desirable ideal is a played out trope. What we have nowadays are weasels in warrior's (to borrow a metaphor) clothing, because the recognizable markers are so easy to imitate. It's like all those guys who watch Sons of Anarchy and then play make-believe biker on the weekend. However, we as men can discern one from another, generally, I think. We can usually spot a dude that is play-acting like an Alpha a mile away. I think this is one of those in-group/out-group things. Kind of like how I bet StillGoing can tell a dude who actually trains MMA from a buff dude wearing a TapOut shirt....but to the uninitiated, they may not be able to tell.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 3:43 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys go too fast. Can I go back to "shoes" for a second? That one struck a chord with me.

If shoes required 84 month financing...

I was thinking this was a great analogy, and 84 months is close enough to how long it took me to get over my FWW's A. The first time.

Now that I'm on the E-Ticket ride for the second time, it's more like 8.4 months, but the point is, the fucking A's are damned expensive. But what do they care, we pay for the ride.

Following up on another post, somebody said "she would have cheated on anybody she married", that was my first college girlfriend. I dropped her like a rock the second time I caught her, found out later she went through 3 husbands before she lost her looks and couldn't get another.

I thought I did better with the one that became my W, but I guess my FOO fucked up my picker.

[This message edited by MoreWould at 3:44 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 3:44 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
ontheslope
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Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 4:02 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As far as the whole 'alpha' thing - the OM in my case was in the Navy. Apparently the uniform did it for her....

I used to say "Thank you for your service" to any armed forces folks I saw at airports or anything. Now they're just a trigger for me and I want to beat the crap out of all of them.


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:26 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FacePunched raises some interesting issues. I was an Air Force SP - the grunts of the AF- many years ago, which means I played Army infantry when we went out into the field. In Feb. '94 we had a joint exercise with the Army at Fort Polk. One of the guys on my flight looked the bad ass part, right down to the way he wore his face paint. Even his gear looked like something out of a movie like Predator or Rambo - big knife tied to his leg, that kind of thing. He liked to scowl and grunt all the time. A regular bad ass.

Another guy in our flight was small, thin, quiet, a little cerebral, and unassuming in about every way. He was also 18 or 19 and fresh out of high school.

We get out in the field, dig our DFPs (foxholes), and a cold front moves in. It starts raining and it doesn't stop for 3 days. Then, the cold weather sets in. We have standing water in some of the holes, the ground is completely soaked and very muddy, and now it's in the high 40s during the day and in the 30s at night. But the Army doesn't stop an exercise for shit. It's not like real bullets are flying your way, so stop complaining. I gave up sleeping for 48 hours straight because I didn't trust my body to maintain its temperature while I slept. So of course the hallucinations kick in, which gave the misery a surreal feel. 10 of our 44 guys were removed from the field for hypothermia. One of them was found unresponsive and had to be airlifted to a hospital (he made a full recovery btw).

Anyway, Mr. Bad Ass was found around Day 4 or 5 sobbing like a baby. He was one of the ones removed from the field. The skinny unassuming kid shared a foxhole with me and seemed completely unfazed by the conditions the whole time. He was a spotter for the machine gun that I manned, and when my hallucinations were bad, he'd tell me if the men that were rushing our position were real or not (they weren't - the Army Op4 had enough sense to stay out of the weather). I'm convinced he's one of the toughest guys, mentally at least, I've ever met. He's probably a school teacher or a bookkeeper in Pennsylvania. Or maybe he stayed in and made it to OCS by now. Hell, he might be a PJ or in some other special ops unit. The faux tough guy? Who knows or cares what he's doing.

Most people would have gotten the alpha/beta thing wrong in that case.

Rambling on...

Active OM are like hyenas. Bold opportunists. But they are not lions. They are not alphas. They're scavengers most of the time, predators only when presented with an easy kill, like a rabbit or a lame gazelle. And no one is more aware of that than they.

My WW's OM knew her in college when she was single, selective and at the height of her youthful beauty. She rejected his advances, and met me a couple of years later. We were married 15 months after that. Flash forward 20 years, and he runs into her again at a time when she is depressed, losing weight and looking great but still seeing herself as fat after giving birth to my children, and in the midst of what now appears to be a hellacious MLC. This time after a relentless 3-4 week attack full of thoughtful listening and reminiscing about the good old days at the U, he gets his kill (sticking with the African-safari-predators-and-scavengers analogy).

And that's the difference between me and OM. I got her when she was young, hopeful and selective. He got her when she was middle-aged, depressed, unhappy with her appearance, and experiencing a life change crisis. I think my wife is still a beauty, but she's 41, not 21. There's some scar tissue, some stretch marks...gravity is beginning to take its toll. That weighs on a woman, so they are especially vulnerable to someone who lays it on thick about how hot they are. At 21 they know they're hot. He didn't stand a chance when she was a challenge.

So, after two attempts 20 years apart, the best the OM got from my wife was to be second fiddle to me for a relative short period of time. A side thing. A diversion. One that she dropped like a hot potato about 15 seconds after her A was discovered.

He's not an alpha, and he's not someone to envy. He's back to being a single middle-aged guy trolling the bars for whatever he can find. One day I might actually feel bad for the guy and put him in the same category as that sobbing Rambo wannabe I knew back in my service days.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 4:37 PM, September 24th (Tuesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:57 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got your pumpkin cannon right here...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=906EM1z7Xxk

Here is a bolt action one that is bigger. Just screams out for a pumpkin magazine for fast follow up shots, taking us back to guns being a possible male equivalent of shoes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0q8yhNy8b8

Best to leave the wormholes and time travel discussion to the Betrayed Theoretical Physicists thread.

Of course, the problem now is that the entire cultural idea of an Alpha Male as a desirable ideal is a played out trope. What we have nowadays are weasels in warrior's (to borrow a metaphor) clothing, because the recognizable markers are so easy to imitate. It's like all those guys who watch Sons of Anarchy and then play make-believe biker on the weekend. However, we as men can discern one from another, generally, I think.
A very good observation. I think since most of us are fluent in male, we understand the language fairly well, but for women they have difficulty interpreting the idioms and such, and go straight for the literal meaning. It is not just the alpha thing, there is also the fake SNAG gambit, and a whole series of others as well. Whatever a woman thinks she wants, there is a guy willing to portray that to get some pussy.

I read a few of those pickup sites as research, and the various techniques they described left me shaking my head in disbelief, thinking "does that shit really work?" It finally came together for me when I read a brutally honest summary on one site that said the whole key was target identification. All of the other psychological tricks like mirroring, the conversation techniques, the NLP, they all came after selecting a vulnerable target and identifying her weakness. They flat out said that nobody can seduce a contented woman, and that the reason for her discontent did not need to be real, just that the discontent must be there.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Mr. Kite
♂ Member
Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 5:50 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Here is a bolt action one that is bigger. Just screams out for a pumpkin magazine for fast follow up shots, taking us back to guns being a possible male equivalent of shoes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0q8yhNy8b8

Are you saying that yours is bigger than mine?

Best to leave the wormholes and time travel discussion to the Betrayed Theoretical Physicists thread.

Now that's frikkin' hilarious.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 6:00 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, I mean the Jersey Shore guys are pretty much a parody of Alpha Males...to me anyway. We all know that they're ridiculous because you see behind the scenes, out of the social light...but all the outward appearances of an Alpha are there... Muscles, symmetrical looks, overt aggressive attitudes, bullshit GAME...I bet you those guys got laid tons, even before fame... despite being colossal tools.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1618 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A very good observation. I think since most of us are fluent in male, we understand the language fairly well, but for women they have difficulty interpreting the idioms and such, and go straight for the literal meaning. It is not just the alpha thing, there is also the fake SNAG gambit, and a whole series of others as well. Whatever a woman thinks she wants, there is a guy willing to portray that to get some pussy.

That's a really good point. I guess the inverse is probably true in some capacity.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:15 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, I mean the Jersey Shore guys are pretty much a parody of Alpha Males...to me anyway. We all know that they're ridiculous because you see behind the scenes, out of the social light...but all the outward appearances of an Alpha are there... Muscles, symmetrical looks, overt aggressive attitudes, bullshit GAME...I bet you those guys got laid tons, even before fame... despite being colossal tools.


Fuck those benny bastards.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7119 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 6:29 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Not to single anyone out *cough*SAL*cough*, but that was a righteous fucking post up there.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WWS

Sal, that was pretty damn good.

As for gourds being flung, just build a real big fucking ramp and roll that sumbitch. Inertia and ballistics will do the rest.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3306 | Registered: Dec 2011
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 8:39 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks WAL, Tred. I was in a righteous fucking mood when I wrote it. My WW would probably say self-righteous.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:45 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You guys move too fast for me, so many things move me, but this stuck out at me

but it still sticks in my head that, at one point, I wasn't what she wanted.

As long as I'm invested in what she wants, that's an issue. It's when I invest in what I want, it's not.

Let's face it ladies, whatever fiction they write of our lives is still fiction. We don't have to buy the broken dreamed fiction of someone who othered us. Living inside changes all that.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 8:57 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can smile and type this shit out even when a truly sore chord is strung. Life does get better with time and work.

I wanted to quote another thing that moves me...sore chord, and getting better, things rhyme ( can't help it, I do it alla time)

There's so much beauty to be found here, I see, in the midst of so much devastation.


Posts: 6032 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
nuance
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Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 10:54 PM, September 24th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Lol what a bunch of nerds :) another Engineer here.

They'd all be fucked out of the gene pool.

Stillgoing, have you read Sperm Wars? Basically humans have several reproductive strategies, some more successful than others.

What happens in this case is not that the woman would have only the bad boy's babies and let the provider raise them. She'll want to have babies with both to have diversity.

Incidentally the book says that monogamy is the best strategy giving it is the predominant one. Diversity would be desired by both man and woman though but that would risk the family so you can't get caught if you do it. Sad reading...


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1160 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
VD2012
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Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 1:10 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The idea of alphas and betas within the human genome tries too hard to simplify and generalize the vast dynamic and divergent pathways to genetic success that there are in the world.

If anything I'm the alpha to my wife's AP beta. And she, to her own admission and even by the evidence of their affair, never considered him as anything else either. I'm better looking, stronger, healthier, more intelligent, funnier, and I obviously have morals, am loyal and honestly I could fucking kill him easily. Not to sound boastful as it goes against my desire for humility but I am an intelligent big badass fucker who's proven to many that you shouldn't fuck with me. Hell, I'm my wife's idea of the world's greatest man... and that was the problem.

My wife didn't take the path it seems a lot of WWs do with how she handled her affair or even since. There was no real hiding it. It was fairly in my face just like her behaviour for months had been. Sure a handful of lies to stave off what she thought was inevitable, but fuck she told me she was going to cheat on me 2 days before she did. Constantly told me she didn't deserve me and everything was her fault. She'd have you think I was a fucking saint, which isn't remotely the truth. I didn't want to really see nor believe what was happening before my eyes. It was all clear as day while I stuck my fingers in my ears and closed my eyes. She wasn't happy with herself, wasn't happy with life and genuinely believed I should have been with someone else.

I wasn't expected to fill any so called needs, I wasn't told I did things wrong, I wasn't blamed for her problems in any way. Oh, I assuredly took all of the blame for everything wrong though. I'm prone to do that. Used to be how I thought I could control situations. If it's my fault I can fix it was my false logic. She never has placed blame on me. It's always been that she's fucked up. So why the AP? Well, he was just like her father, and like the man who raped her as a kid, a pathetic loser. The similarities and the thought process she had at the time scare me and simultaneously gross me out.

It was never romance or what he could do for her. She didn't want him to boost her ego or tell her how amazing she was. In fact he did the contrary. Criticized her, mocked and insulted her husband (which didn't go over too well), and generally made it clear he didn't think much of her beyond being his fuck toy friend that he knew was messed up in the head, vulnerable and suicidal. He was encouraging her to destroy her life further and seemed to enjoy it.

Everyone I've talked to about it thinks he's one of the most despicable people they've heard of. He wasn't some sly wannabe lady's man filling her head with so called ego kibble. Nor was he a replacement for me in any way. But he did give her exactly what she wanted and she used him all the same for that purpose. She wanted to prove how fucking pathetic she was and went that one step further to force me to leave her.

My wife hated herself so much and didn't think she should be in my life but was too selfish and fearful to leave me. And no matter what she did or how bad she got I was still there. She couldn't appreciate my loyalty or devotion. I tried to get her help, doctors, therapy, endlessly being there for her through everything. All she saw was someone delusionally in "love" (because how could anyone really love her? is what she thought) with her who needed to see just how terrible she was. I was supposed to stop being the "good guy", stop being there out of obligation (because of our daughter apparently), just go "oh wow, you're right you really do suck and are an awful human being - silly me for never seeing that before, bye" and move off into the sunset to find the wonder woman that is supposedly out there for me. Oh and of course our daughter would be better off without such a shitty terrible mother to influence and corrupt her.

PSA: Waywards think really fucked up thoughts.

He wasn't alpha or even beta to her, but an available tool used to accomplish a fucked up task. Nothing more. She knew he was a low life piece of shit, which was perfect. She wanted the husband she put on a pedestal to take the kid and run from her to go live "better happier" lives while she dies alone like she deserves. "Just like my parents".


My point is worrying about an alpha this or beta that is pointless. WWs, just like WHs, cheat for all sorts of fucked up selfish reasons that can't all be simplified and generalized into a neat tidy little aphorism or even idiom. Fucked up people do fucked up things.

It has nothing to do with seeking out the so called alpha male type to be their ideal sex mate play toy, because after all there are some WWs out there who didn't tread down that path. But are just as equally fucked up in the head. The one's who recognize how fucked they are and change are the ones worth holding onto should you want to.

ETA: Not really relevant to the rest of my post, but something I just recalled very distinctly.

We watched the movie Contagion with Matt Damon and Gwyneth Paltrow about a week after her affair had started. I remember when the scene where Gwyneth Paltrow's character dies and the revelation of her affair my wife sat there stone faced and serious saying "She fucking deserved it." In the same time frame she showed me random posts on Reddit where men had been cheated on by their wives and asked what I'd do. "I don't know really know, haven't given it thought, why?" was my response, followed by her "why on earth wouldn't you just leave, what's there to think about?"

And there I was using those two incidents at the time to convince myself "she would never cheat, she couldn't possibly be cheating". Look how poorly she thinks of cheaters! Yeah, look how poorly indeed. It's all a matter of perspective gentlemen.

[This message edited by VD2012 at 1:37 AM, September 25th (Wednesday)]


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 1:34 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

VD, that sounds like a case of someone choosing a proxy for a past traumatic incident and trying to recreate it as an adult hoping they can get a different result. Not really that unusual from what I can tell.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
VD2012
♂ Member
Member # 36317
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, September 25th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I know aesir, I've read up on it enough. Her counselor talked to her about it, mine tried explaining it to me, I've discussed it on here. That did play a very key role in why she had an affair on a deep psychological level. And no it's not unusual, happens all the time it seems.

My point really though is, as I said, it's not necessarily about some primordial lizard-brained desire to procreate with the "better" alpha while maintaining the beta as backup provider when it comes to women. Fucked up comes in all sorts of varieties and they don't all overlap.


Me: 28 ~ Her (FR2012): 27
Together: 9 years, 2 children
D-Day: April 19, 2012

Surrender to the truth of life.


Posts: 466 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Traversing Dark Places With The Light of Truth
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