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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 14
ontheslope
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Member # 40574
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RSD7 - I think you hit the nail on the head man... I think there is a real big issue with women that they *need* to have someone else validate their happiness. Maybe it's from all the 'you're a princess' crap that their parents foisted on them when they were young...you know, "prince charming will come and happily ever after" and the like. So at some point when reality strikes and happily ever after drops off the radar and real life isn't enough for them any more, they jump out a window and go looking for the next Prince Charming using the only tool available to them: that nifty little furry spot between their legs.

Speaking of that spot between their legs... for those of us that still have 'relations' with their WWs, I gotta ask: Is it such a bad thing when it feels like 'just sex' sometimes? My WW and I are basically friends with benefits. I don't really love her anymore and she knows it (someone said it better earlier... the 'warm and fuzzies' are gone). Most of me is OK with it being just sex (I mean, come on... it is sex, and that's almost never a bad thing), but there is a little part of me that knows that there is something missing, and it just kind of sucks at the same time.

So... uhm.... am I off my rocker?

[This message edited by ontheslope at 3:52 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]


Me: BH, 35
Her: WW, 36
Two girls 7 & 10
Married 12 years
Dday: July, 2009

She wants answers... I'm still trying to figure out what the questions are.


Posts: 255 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: Maine, USA
RyeBread
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Member # 37437
Default  Posted: 3:53 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You are so dead on damaged71. I've known her ability to go no fault on things for a while. But when she willingly decided to pole dance on POSER's lame excuse for manhood is when my denial/tolerance went completely out the window.
My "giving" was probably the biggest mistake I made. I assumed that the person I was married to wouldn't abuse it. But sure enough she did. And the real rub comes when she tells me I am being selfish and self-absorbed, that it is all about me and what I want. I don't bite on that but damn if I couldn't hurl a semi-truck across a football field when I hear it. And at this point it is all about me to be honest. She had her fun and good times. She had an oportunity to make a big positive change in her life for the last few years. I was scared, wasn't sure how it would play out. I took on a lot more responsibility than I should have. Instead she chose to use that time to get her ego stroked and neglect the people who cared. She burned bridges over a bottomless cavern. Now she has to pay the piper.

Can't wait to lift weights tonight. Gotta get rid of some angst.


Let him that would move the world first move himself. - Socrates

Posts: 956 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: Midwest
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:55 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

And damn if it didn't feel good to do that...

I just did the same with a lawnmower about 1 month ago, went and bought it-I couldnt care less what she had to say.

It's not just you smart guys, all of my white trash buddies are all 100% cheated on, except the one who did the cheating...pretty sure that couple are madhatters.


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5358 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
64fleet
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Member # 18710
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

OTS-I have felt the same about sex for about 5 yrs now. No real connection.
It was never there to begin with. I imagined it all.

When it bothers me I remind myself that I'm a guy...


time wounds all heels

Posts: 5358 | Registered: Mar 2008 | From: deliverance land
damaged71
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Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 4:18 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

RB..

This says a lot

I assumed that the person I was married to wouldn't abuse it. But sure enough she did.

When I met my wife I literally told her "you are the first person that I've ever met that tried to out nice me". The more I did for her the more she did for me. Needless to say that didn't last forever.

RSDU7

Mech E but My business cards say Controls and Automation.

OTS I know how you feel. I absolutely hate the fact that to me, my wife is the most amazing looking woman I've ever seen. She has the best legs I have ever seen in my life anywhere. I don't have the "warm and fuzzy" anymore but I can't help myself. I am attracted physically to everything about her. She has been doing better and I think maybe the "warm and fuzzies" will come back someday. I'm holding out for it.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
damaged71
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Member # 36004
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


64fleet...

I know of a single guy that has cheated on his wife. He was cheated on in his first marriage by his wife.

I work with 95% men and I was out of the country for about 2 months (Scotland,Brazil,Germany,Norway) last year with two different groups of men. Not one single time did I see or hear any of these men mention anything about doing anything wrong.

Seriously... I know they aren't just good at keeping their mouths shut. There seems to be a huge disparity here.

This is weird.


I didn't know there was this much emotional pain in the universe!
Me 42
Her 44
D-day 5.18.12
Currently in R

Posts: 302 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: damaged71
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Shit, is there going to be a betrayed engineer thread? B.Sc. in Mechanical here.

I dunno, about the whole thing of what women expect, I have to believe there are some out there with realistic ideas about marriage, spouses, and partnerships etc. I had a discussion about it with someone special but I could not really articulate the idea at the time. Tried to articulate it here, became an impenetrable wall of text.

Idea was triggered by pondering a couple of threads here, and the responses, and the general attitude towards husbands faults, and what those faults might be, and my impression of the difference in expectations between men and women with regards to a spouses role.

In short, a lot of people get married and no longer see their spouse as a person, just a prop, to be judged soley by the outcome and how well they provide the desired effect, no different than how one judges props seen on any TV or theater set. I do believe that for historical reasons, women are more inclined to expect impossible to reconcile internal contradictions from their props, as opposed to how many men are quite specific in their expectations of the props they marry.

I'm actually quite hopeful about the possibilities for future generations of men and women with regards to marriage, as I think reality is a very blunt stick (if it is a little slow and cumbersome in it's application) that will knock some sense into those who promote ideas of marriage based solely on personal fantasy. It's just gonna take some time to sort out. I suspect that a child born today will be looking at a much different concept of marriage than any of us have experienced.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Later
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Member # 39375
Default  Posted: 5:31 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have never cheated on an engineer.

Posts: 384 | Registered: May 2013
wincing_at_light
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Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 5:43 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unrelated to anything:

So, we're like 7 weeks or whatever into raising the new kids. We're discovering almost daily what a shitty experience they've come out of: neglect, abuse, fending for themselves, hunger, poverty, cSAb stuff.

Leads to some interesting observations. Even at five, we're already seeing the oft-discussed issues here with external validation, manipulation, disconnected emotions, and self-esteem fail. If it's homework, every line of letters that get completed have to be shown off and praised to everyone in the house. If it's a puzzle, each new piece has to be observed as it's placed and praise awarded. If it doesn't come from the immediate target, it's sought from the next person, and the next one, and the next one -- preferably from everybody within earshot.

It is exhausting. The external validation thing is a bottomless hole. There isn't ever enough praise, enough attention, enough...anythng. If you stop for ice cream, there's a crying fit if there aren't french fries. If you go to the park, there's pouting if we don't do the next fun thing afterwards.

We're only as good as the last reward, prize, candy or ego kibble we gave.

We're working on it. Five is too young to give up on anybody, but even at only 7 weeks, both Sparkle and I have wondered to each other if there's just too much damage to be salvageable...at least in our down times. Progress comes in small increments, followed by three steps back. It's a climb, and it's likely to take years and thousands of hours of therapy.

Already, all of the friends we hear about at school are boys. She loves them -- her words. She's five.

This shit is hard. She gets jealous and acts out when I'm holding my wife's hand. We've had to put boundaries in place about simple things like not letting her sit next to me or the other boys on the couch. It's not sexual stuff necessarily, it's the manipulative side it brings out: do this for me, look at me, pay attention to me, tell me I'm pretty, tell me I'm good, tell me I'm interesting.

Literally.

Tell me about myself, because I have no concept of my own identity except what I see reflected by you.

There are no boundaries. No concept of "no" that isn't repeated a hundred times with increasing volume, followed by tears and tantrums and trying to evoke sympathy from someone else -- whoever else will pick up the shovel and try to fill the bottomless hole. A favorite manipulative tactic is to pretend to not know something she clearly knows, just to get you to explain it to her -- so you will engage, then give a "good job! ur so awesome!" when she pretends to discover it. She's literally doing that to my wife now, even as I type. (It's not flying.)

This is what so many of us have encountered stripped bare of the adult guise of sophistication. It's startling to see the desperation at the core of it, before that layer of "sophistication" makes it look like something more complicated.

Don't mistake this insight for pity. It's more of a "Holy Jesus, Mother of Fuck! How do you fix this shit?!" I'm pretty sure either my wife or I say something like that a dozen times a week.

We're talking about someone who cannot spend five minutes alone without having to have someone validate, someone participate, someone reflect, praise, attend.

It is effing exhausting.

Even with two of us giving so much of our time. It isn't enough to fill the hole.

Sound familiar?

Thought so.

We're still hopeful. It's early on; still a chance. Still time to teach about boundaries, about self esteem, about internal validation.

But let me tell you: these girls are everywhere. There are millions of them, the stats are telling us. Some of us are married to them, who at 30, 40, 50 are just now starting to do the work we're trying to do with this one little one.

I don't have any grand solutions here, no unified theory of saving broken little girls. It is frustrating, mind-boggling, emotionally draining. It is never having a good, connecting, relationship-building moment that doesn't get ruined because it's "too good", and it has to be spoiled before the other shoe drops.

Maybe all I'm trying to say here is that beneath all of the venom, the "I don't know" and "I don't remember" (which we hear on literally a daily basis around here), the callousness, coldness, skull-shattering senselessness, casual cruelty, and active attempts to hurt other people to pay them back or share a bit of misery, what shines most clearly, most darkly, from the seething core of instability is just the clawing desperation. The insatiable and inchoate need to feel, to belong, to be accepted, to be...something, anything, other than lost and empty and hurting and scared.

For the first couple of weeks, it was so sad and pitiable, it broke our hearts.

It doesn't do that anymore. It's too flagrant, too demanding, to entitled, this desperation. This consumptive, disrespectful, carnivorous desperation to consume, to fill the hole, to get and take and eat. To fill that void of pain and terrible cacophony of emptiness, shame, and need with anything that will distract for a moment.

Things to be pondered.

My wife is a hero. She endured this and worse, and now she's trying with all of her considerable might to break the cycle before it consumes another generation. Her courage and grace are astounding. She cries herself to sleep too often, questions her methods too fiercely, judges herself too harshly. In my eyes, she is a warrior.

We've never had to lean on one another like this, sometimes just to get through the day -- to get to bedtime one more time without anyone getting murdered or running off screaming into the woods.

Let me tell you this: my wife, she does not fail. She is always there. When I'm out of rope, she's always got another length in her backpack.

I look at my wife, and that's all I need to keep going, keep fighting, keep doing the next right thing. She's my example of what *can* be, that success in this battle is possible.

My wife is a song of redemption. An object of wonder.

Peace, gentlemen.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6687 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
StillGoing
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Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 6:41 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wal, you may want to look into some of the coping strategies weapons grade ADD parents cover. What you are dealing with comes from an entirely different source so ultimately any tools would need some re-purposing, but tools are tools. Guiding a child to self awareness is seriously fucking difficult sometimes.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7077 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 7:01 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

fall's best beers

Dogfish Head Red & White sounds really good, headed to Vegas this weekend , planning on stocking up on some good brews, going to keep my eye out for that one.

Is it such a bad thing when it feels like 'just sex' sometimes?

It's been "just sex" for me since about a month after dday. My feelings for her didn't just turn off the instant this all came to a head. (that's what she said) But after a month when reality began to sink in even more, those loving feelings shut off rather abruptly. I have physical needs, so it might as well be her that fills them. I know that sounds really callous, maybe I'm a dick for saying it and feeling that way. But I'm not about to open myself up to her at this point. So for now just sex it is. Maybe if she gets her shit together and starts doing more work than she is now I'll consider adding a little more meaning to the act.
Putting the physical aspect of the affair aside (I know that's a pretty big chunk of shit to put aside), but my wife's EA is what really killed off all of the love that used to be associated with that act. The "I love you, your so special, we have a special bond" shit that was exchanged between my ww and the poser sucked the special bond right out of our marriage.

a lot of people get married and no longer see their spouse as a person, just a prop

I find this idea intriguing. Out of curiosity what would be consider those expectations to be?
***Just wrote a long incoherent paragraph, only to realize that you probably wouldn't have any idea what I was trying to convey, so I deleted it.

My wife is a hero...I look at my wife, and that's all I need to keep going, keep fighting, keep doing the next right thing.

Pardon the language, but this is FUCKING AWESOME!!!
Seriously, this is how I used to feel and how I want to again feel someday. Thank you for sharing!

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 7:04 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 417 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:16 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL,

These kids are lucky they have you and Sparkles. You'll give them their best chance.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3278 | Registered: Dec 2011
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 7:18 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She said that I wouldn't believe her anyway and that I wouldn't know for sure, so what would be the point? I told her my gut would know and that once I had all the facts I could finally make a decision. This is what I suspect she fears and why she keeps silent on her past.

I got that too, though you don't need just your gut ; liars cannot do one thing consistently and that is tell the truth, specially if it's against themselves. Every time I heard "that's all there is to it", the proverbial canary was that there was never... NEVER volunteering of information, nor confirmation of suspicion (always a denial) and not once a thought out "that's what I recall for now, if I can remember any further, I'll let you know, I'm sorry". Nada. Hazarding a guess that most of our remorseless WWs are PA/CA and were demonstrating highly addictive behaviours during their As; I'd say keeping shameful secrets trumps all other survival skills and damned be the people or relationships in your life. Toxic shame is something I never knew existed until SI. Explains a lot.

Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:22 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I find this idea intriguing. Out of curiosity what would be consider those expectations to be?
Gonna try to avoid the wall of text on the evolution of this from misinterpreting the 1950's based on TV to today and how it has been fostered by the media and a collection of academics specializing in Angry Studies.

I think the expectations vary, from person to person, and I do actually believe there are some people who approach marriage as a real partnership / relationship. There are many however who treat selecting a spouse like accessorizing their life.

From the wall of text I was working on:
Now don't get me wrong, I think there are a lot of men who also view the women in their lives as little more than props, but I don't think the expectations of those props are as contradictory. We don't read novels about the sensitive assertive aloof and caring fun loving but troubled billionaire who is always available whenever desired but spends enough time managing his empire that he is never in the way, nor have I seen a trope that is the female equivalent. Men who choose to marry a prop generally pick a specific prop to fulfill their preferred lifestyle, whether that be a good mother, good homemaker, live in maid, personal concubine, career boosting adornment... I find many women are looking for the spousal equivalent of that little black dress that does everything, and when it comes to people, there are just too many contradictory and mutually exclusive demands. Not giving guys a pass who do the prop thing either, quite often after they choose a spouse, their priorities change and if the good mother / live in maid is too tired from all that work, later on they try to find a concubine on the side. I believe that women with this attitude never prioritize their wants, and it is no win for the guy at all times.

Sadly, you can't even count on two prop departments finding each other. My guess is they tend to be drawn to the authentic people, as these people are the ones most likely to fall into the role at first out of a genuine desire for a relationship.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
DefiledRage
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Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 7:37 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

their priorities change and if the good mother / live in maid is too tired from all that work, later on they try to find a concubine on the side

Think this is were I was trying to go before I deleted my rambling. My wife often says that I had that "bad boy" persona and reputation when she first meet me. She admits that it is that that first attracted her to me. Now I get married and have kids there no longer is any room for that guy. I grow up and became a responsible husband and father. Problem is she never moves forward with me. She still wants that "bad boy" but she's smart enough to know that she needs my stability for both her and the kids. So she keeps me hanging around like the sap that I am, and just adds the "bad boy" on the side. Cake-eaters suck! I definitely thinks she views me as a prop sometimes, but I'd like to differentiate a little and say that the Poser isn't a prop but instead is a tool!

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 7:39 PM, September 23rd (Monday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 417 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 7:46 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

See, now if you had just been a billionaire you would not have needed to grow up and you could still be that bad boy with millions of women fantasizing about you doing things they would never allow. You fail the little black dress test because you have to make the choice between looking after your family and being bad.

Yeah, tools, well I don't even want to get into a discussion of the Binford model.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
Tred
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Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 7:48 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

She still wants that "bad boy" but she's smart enough to know that she needs my stability for both her and the kids. So she keeps me hanging around like the sap that I am, and just adds the "bad boy" on the side.

That's how I felt. She knew she had it good, and didn't want to give up her stability for an honest life. She decided to have both because, as you all know, I would never find out. I was a tool too. Used like one. I feel like that a lot of the time for sticking around.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3278 | Registered: Dec 2011
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 7:57 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WAL, from where I sit that 5-year old girl has an excellent shot at a great life now that you and Sparkles are on the job. God bless you both.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
M for almost 18 years
4 kids

Reconciled


Posts: 1024 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 8:08 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Every time I heard "that's all there is to it", the proverbial canary was that there was never... NEVER volunteering of information, nor confirmation of suspicion (always a denial)

It's been 19 years since D-Day 1 and there has been only one time, 1996, when WW came to me and volunteered something that made her look bad. Since that day there has never, ever been any volunteering of information or coming to me to say something that might help our M. Not once, not one word. In fact, I'm the bad guy whenever I bring up anything potentially threatening to her fantasy world, where if we don't talk about it, it didn't actually happen.

I've gotten lots of helpful information since reading here on SI and I'm grateful to be a member, but sometimes while reading about men who's wives get it and have done all they can to help their husbands heal, I grieve in my heart over what might have been had Mrs. Kite done the same.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
kg201
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Member # 40173
Default  Posted: 8:11 PM, September 23rd (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've gotten lots of helpful information since reading here on SI and I'm grateful to be a member, but sometimes while reading about men who's wives get it and have done all they can to help their husbands heal, I grieve in my heart over what might have been had Mrs. Kite done the same.

I'm with you Mr. Kite. Albeit you have been at this much longer than I have.


Me: BH, 39
Her: WW, 40
Together 18 years, married 15+
LTA 3.5 years, ongoing
Dday: 7/28/13
Divorcing, 3 children
---------------------------------
"There can be no friendship without confidence, and no confidence without integrity." -S

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