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Divorce/Separation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Digging in the dirt (to find the places we got hurt)
tigrislilium
♀ Member
Member # 39893
What?  Posted: 10:18 PM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has anyone here (BSs) realized during their separation just how much they contributed to the problems in the marriage?

I look back and am able to see maybe a bit more clearly the negativity I contributed to my marriage, and it's been helpful to gain that perspective. I want to proceed with my life (whether it's divorce or recommitment) with a clear understanding of the part I played in making our marriage bad, so as to never make the same mistakes.

It's only the beginning of my journey back into my deep past (long before I met WH, long before I was even a teenager), and I am already understanding:
-how I acquired such a low self esteem;
-my ability to construct a protective wall before anyone gets a chance to hurt me;
-my harsh judgement of "fake" people;
-my fear of abandonment, and many other personality traits that I've come to learn have hobbled me for all my adult life and made me vulnerable to one bad relationship after another.

SO... I'm working on myself, and I hope to get to where I feel like I'm not only WHOLE for the first time in my life, but also MATURE for the first time in my life.

I don't take ANY responsibility for my WH's affairs, and I also understand what led him to act like he did stems from some deep down dirt that HE needs to work out, but surely our wayward spouses aren't the only ones with baggage? I've been to several counselors over the years and one thing they've ALL said: people tend to end up with other people who match them in their level of dysfunction. For instance: maybe your WS is a narcissist. That's not to say YOU are one too, but rather that there is something equally damaging that YOU bring into relationships - maybe a super-low self esteem, or an abusive daddy in your past who you never knew how to say no to...

Have any of you had any helpful revelations about YOURSELVES while trying to recover from the infidelity your WS committed? Did your newfound understanding of yourself help you to be more understanding of your WS - or did it make you sure you could NEVER stay with them?

Also, did your WS use the time of separation to work on their issues and "dig in the dirt" (Peter Gabriel - great song!) so that there was a CHANCE to heal the marriage, or did they still not want to accept that they HAD such hard work to do on themselves?


Me: BS, early 40s/ Him: WS, mid 40s
Married 2004
DD7
His affairs: 3 LTAs over at least 5 years, all of them overlapping at the time I found out
DDay: December 2011
Separated ~1 yr, recently reunited
attempting R

Posts: 57 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: East coast
Sparkles
♀ Member
Member # 39901
Default  Posted: 11:59 PM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This is quite a thought provoking post. I will respond briefly to some of the questions, but will surely be thinking on this for quite a while.

It is really difficult because I feel so duped. We actually had a really great relationship in so many ways. There was never any sort of physical abuse and since we have 4 kids and he had just started a demanding new job, I thought some of the emotional distance was due to work stress. I thought I was being supportive when he needed to focus on other things. I had no idea what other "things" he was actually focusing on! .

Have any of you had any helpful revelations about YOURSELVES while trying to recover from the infidelity your WS committed?

Yes, I discovered that I'm loyal to a fault. That's not a compliment to myself. Truly, To. A. Fault. I compromised some of my personal integrity while being with him. Always took his side even when I might have questioned the behavior had it been someone else. I'm a little ashamed about some of the things I did NOT say to him when he screwed other people over or the explanations that I didn't question when he did certain things. Denial, maybe?

Did your newfound understanding of yourself help you to be more understanding of your WS - or did it make you sure you could NEVER stay with them?

I know I will never be with him again. My therapist mentioned mirroring - he mirrored my core values and beliefs and I happily believed him. If he did the work to understand his own "dirt", I would maybe be friendly with him again, but never in a relationship. That bridge is burned.

Also, did your WS use the time of separation to work on their issues and "dig in the dirt" (Peter Gabriel - great song!) so that there was a CHANCE to heal the marriage, or did they still not want to accept that they HAD such hard work to do on themselves?

My WS is not doing any real work to figure himself out. He knows he needs to - lots of FOO issues, but he seems determined to continue on the path of least resistance.

I know I'm a flawed person. But. I deserve better. Had I known what was going on I would not have tolerated it.


Posts: 138 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: In a better place
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 12:40 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Broken attracts broken. I was when I picked him. I was duped for sure but I held on to the illusion for far longer than he put effort into keeping it up.

We were functioning dysfunctionals before we had children. He would breach a boundary, I'd leave - he'd beg me back, I'd relent. Lather, rinse, repeat.

I thought we were ironing out the kinks but what we were really doing was setting a pattern and building my cage.

That I showed him how to build it, helped him build it and held it closed with my own hands has been one of the hardest truths to face out of all of the hard truths I've faced this past year.

Once we had children my fear of being a single mum outweighed everything else. My self-respect, my dignity - even the wellbeing of my children. I cringe when I think about my first 4 years of motherhood - the things I was modelling and the kind of mother I was. Just horrible.

I was faithful right up until DD. In heart, mind and body. I convinced myself I loved him long after the loving feelings had disappeared. I waited patiently for them to come back, I worked at it. I tried to reach out.

I picked him because I was broken. I tolerated his disrespect because I was broken. I ignored the cheating because I was broken.

When it all ended that broken turned into ground into the dust. I am rebuilding myself by mixing some of that dust in with my stronger, healthier self.

I do not doubt some of us are COMPLETELY blindsided but IMO that is rarer than we think.

I just know I wasn't blindsided, I thought I was but looking back I really wasn't.

I always knew he was capable of it - his loose boundaries in other areas pointed to it. His sense of entitlement and his absolute belief in Unicorns and Rainbows - his love addiction.

I just couldn't believe he would actually do it. I thought he would at least have the decency to divorce me - not to cheat on me.

A hard question I am grappling with ATM is why was the other stuff not deal breakers? Why did I wait until he cheated? Why did I not admit to myself that the cheating was a dealbreaker until a few months after S. I always knew it - why did I rage against it?

It is good to dig and resolve this stuff. If I don't I'm heading for a WH#2 or worse, an original wayward myself.


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5558 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 12:49 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ditto on much of what Sparkles noted.

My biggest problem was that I knew he had FOO issues, but I always just assumed he'd make right choices. I made that mistake because i grew up with a parent with FOO issues who worked tirelessly to fix them, create a stable and happy home, etc. I just thought everyone would prefer to be "better" and would work just as hard. I was being naive... But I was also just being lazy. I hated having to have "talks" and mostly he would eventually do the right thing anyway.

When he didn't make good choices (escaping work with exercise, binging on food, fighting with coworkers, not contolling his OCD), I'd try to help him through it. Sometimes, he listened. More often, he didn't. I'd keep at it but, when I felt like I was crossing a line into nagging, I'd tell him it was his life and wash my hands of it. I wanted him to face consequences and learn from it. Problem was, he was so good at putting out fires, he never learned, really. Eventually I would be so busy with my own work or whatever, I'd forget to bring up that idea about looking into an IC for him to address his issues... Or I'd hesitate out of fear of hurting his feelings.

I think over the years I got bossy, in part because of this. I'd anticipate some of his rejections or procrastination and I'd push us in certain directions. We lived with my folks for a couple of years to save money. He HATED it. We'd look for a place we could afford, nothing much would come up, I'd tell him it was just a bump in the road, buck up, focus on the long game. He'd keep trying. But I think he started to build resentments.

During the breakup he reminded me that I told him when we were dating that if he lived in another apartment like his first (which had no kitchen, 5 people sharing one bathroom that was never clean and, in spots, huge holes in the floor), I would never come see him. So he moved in with me, but that gave him a killer commute everyday (we worked in nearby but different major cities). He had to take extra shifts to pay for a car, his share of the rent. He'd try to tell me it wasn't working for him and I'd be dismissive or challenge him to move out. He didn't want to disappoint or lose me, so he stayed. Again, he built resentments and, in retrospect, I feel like I took advantage of him insofar as I knew he loved me too much to leave. An asshole move on my part.

And I had a friendship with an exBF that was nothing for him to worry about, but it bothered him. He didn't tell me about it, but he'd talk to my Mom. She'd tell me he was unhappy but I'd be a brat and complain that I'm allowed to have a male friend. As soon as DDay happened, the first thing my father said was "shouldn't have kept talking to [exBF]. None of us understood why you did that to him." I get that that friendship didn't make him cheat, but it made him feel more uncertain than I realized. First thing he said on DDay was that he always thought I would leave him someday because he was so difficult and he never knew "what really happened" with exBF. I wish we had talked about it and I'd been a little more understanding. Breaks my heart.

Sometimes when I think about breaking NC with him, it's to express that I'm sorry for this stuff and I would change if it meant we could get a fresh start. But it's all a fantasy. That's the funny thing about an A. Once they do it it's such a death blow to a R that if there is enough resentment on the WW's side and they feel bad but can't quite muster remorse, you are left holding an interesting mess on your hands. Of course you are devastated and victimized. You are abused when you are a BS, no matter how you slice it.

But I think it's reasonable to recognize that you weren't always a saint either. Not in a self-help "what was your role in this A" way... But as part of this twin process of trying to understand how this trauma could have happened while also trying to deal with your own shit and learn from this horrible thing lessons that will hopefully make you happier and a better partner in the future, etc.

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 12:53 AM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


BS / D

Posts: 863 | Registered: Jun 2013
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 12:51 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Broken attracts broken. I was when I picked him. I was duped for sure but I held on to the illusion for far longer than he put effort into keeping it up.

Ditto!


Once we had children my fear of being a single mum outweighed everything else. My self-respect, my dignity - even the wellbeing of my children. I cringe when I think about my first 4 years of motherhood - the things I was modelling and the kind of mother I was. Just horrible.

I was faithful right up until DD. In heart, mind and body. I convinced myself I loved him long after the loving feelings had disappeared. I waited patiently for them to come back, I worked at it. I tried to reach out.

I picked him because I was broken. I tolerated his disrespect because I was broken. I ignored the cheating because I was broken.

When it all ended that broken turned turned into ground into the dust. I am rebuilding myself by mixing some of that dust in with my stronger, healthier self.

Exact same story here. In fact, I sometimes would tell my parents about the bad things happening here (abuse) and they would say right to me that I could not make it as a single mother. So I was convinced I had to continue tolerating everything because I had no options.

I was too tolerant. I was too forgiving. I looked the other way when I was bullied into silence. I was too cowardly to stand up for myself and walk out the door. I was too prideful in that I thought my prayers & unconditional love would transform him into the man I thought he was, transform my marriage into what I thought it could be.

I have so many FOO issues I could probably spend the rest of my life on the couch and still not be done. I've already spent so much time in counseling that when I talk to others and their problems come up, and if I reply back, people point out that I sound like a psychologist.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9664 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 1:04 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn. This is cathartic.


BS / D

Posts: 863 | Registered: Jun 2013
Sparkles
♀ Member
Member # 39901
Default  Posted: 1:41 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I was too prideful in that I thought my prayers & unconditional love would transform him into the man I thought he was, transform my marriage into what I thought it could be.

This really hits home for me. I didn't believe I was going into a relationship where I wanted to "change" someone (I actually liked him) but isn't thinking that we could love or stand by someone enough that they make better/right choices almost the same thing? So much to think about...


Posts: 138 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: In a better place
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 2:20 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

/tj
In fact, I sometimes would tell my parents about the bad things happening here (abuse) and they would say right to me that I could not make it as a single mother. So I was convinced I had to continue tolerating everything because I had no options.

Fuck NG. That is so wrong. They failed you so bad. I'm so sorry honey.

My mum endured years of physical/sexual abuse from childhood and in her M.

Years ago I received a crack of dawn call from my mum - she was all stressed out/panicking and asked if I was OK. Then asked if the sad clown was OK. When I questioned her she said she dreamed that he had struck me and that I had flown into a rage and killed him. She was calling to see if I needed help getting rid of the body.

We all laughed about it at the time.

I wish my bar hadn't been set so low - he wasn't hitting me so it felt weird calling what he was doing abuse (non-A related).

It felt so wrong to name what he was doing as 'abuse' when I had witnessed it in its extreme form throughout my childhood. I felt foolish.

2-3 years before DD I told him that what he was doing was abuse and he laughed at me. I can still hear his incredulous, high-piched "Abuse??? AYFKM?? Abuse? You SERIOUSLY think you're being abused? Oh, that is hil-arious".

During False R he reminded me of this discussion and verified that abuse is exactly what it was - apologised profusely.... and hasn't stopped trying to inflict this abuse since S.

But... to reach out to someone and have them not only not help but actually harm me? I'm so very sorry honey. They failed you - big time.
/end tj


I may have reached a point where I'd piss on him if he was on fire.... eventually!!

Posts: 5558 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
Nature_Girl
♀ Member
Member # 32554
Default  Posted: 2:57 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My mom has since apologized. My father passed away before my DDay & coming out with all the dirt. But my mom, oh Lord, I've shared it all with her now. She wept.

Here's what I own, though. Here's my dirt: I never did tell them all the goings on back then because I still felt loyal to my husband. I thought I was being disloyal if I told everything. So I only told some stuff. That was my bad choice. On the other hand, the things I did tell? That should have been enough. So that's on my parents for refusing to help when I'd clearly told them enough that they should have helped.

But yeah. I kept a lot of it hidden. I not only gaslit myself, I gaslit everyone else. I participated in the rugsweeping & deception. And that's why I eventually ended up taking an ambulance ride to the hospital. The stress of it all killed me.


Me = BS (Stay-at-home-mom)
Him = EX-d out (abusive troglodyte NPD SA)
3 tween-aged kids
Together 20 years
D-Day: Memorial Weekend 2011
2013 - I DIVORCED HIM, I'M FREE!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBOJpIwF47Y

Posts: 9664 | Registered: Jun 2011 | From: USA
whatamidoing
♀ Member
Member # 37152
Default  Posted: 7:49 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Funny thing is I am even more judgmental towards myself than others and have a lot of self esteem issues
I have spent years examining my issues and my need for change. I knew there was something wrong and I went to IC I read books I talked and tried and worked and ended up here
I believed my hope and my love would get us through and that he would see his issues and want to be better and do better but I am wrong He just wants to run away and hide
no repercussion
no regrets
no remorse
I am left with so much hurt and bitterness and no chance to make it right for me or my kids
I have been figuring out my role in this since I knew anything about the A


A friend can tell you things you don't want to tell yourself
_________________________________
BS Me 43
WH 42
DD June 2nd '12
LTA (2+ yrs)
False R Many times from July '12 till now forced D
OW: acting like she is the wife

Posts: 182 | Registered: Oct 2012 | From: Guelph
cayc
♀ Member
Member # 21964
Default  Posted: 8:51 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pretty much what all of you all have said in spades.

Especially:

I wish my bar hadn't been set so low - he wasn't hitting me so it felt weird calling what he was doing abuse (non-A related).

Because I did this for everything. I played myself a negative set of feedback tapes in my head that made me live what I call a fear-based life. I was afraid to leave, afraid to challenge, afraid to believe in what I knew to be true, afraid to believe in myself and so on.

And so practically every decision I made, especially in my personal life where I was most vulnerable, was made in service of selling myself short and allowing myself to be treated horribly.

I will not claim S/D and now a pretty lovely NB has absolved me of that habit, but I know it. My dips down into negative land are dips, not a constant state.

For example, I had an IC in college (yes even then I was trying & failing at helping myself ha ha) who was surprised at my fatalistic view of breaking up with a boyfriend. Why, he said to me, do you think you will never meet anyone else?

And that's what I've always thought. ALWAYS. That fear of leaving xWH? We didn't have kids, little money to fight over. It was purely that I was afraid I wouldn't find anyone.

And it's so incredibly ridiculous b/c I ALWAYS have. I have never not had people asking me out on dates etc. Now, people I'm interested in? Um no. But the idea that I'm such an introvert and hard to get to know that I won't meet someone at some point is ludicrous and patently untrue as evidenced by the history of my entire life. And yet I clung to that belief with a stubbornness that is fascinating.

My xWH is a con artist. He ran a long con on me. But I set myself up to be the patsy by these exact issues all of you have mentioned here. That's my personal growth goal at the moment. To learn to shut down the negative feedback loop. To stop the fatalistic, black and white, all or nothing thinking and recognize that no matter what, I always wind up ok, with friends, with love and kindness in my life. And that even more so, I have a lot to give and it's ok to give it. Especially to the deserving. (Of whom xWH is not one stupid fucker ha ha!!)


"The difference between involvement and commitment is like ham and eggs. The chicken is involved, the pig is committed." -Martina Navratilova
"The question isn't who is going to let me; it's who is going to stop me." -Ayn Rand

Posts: 3086 | Registered: Dec 2008 | From: Mexico
tryingagain74
♀ Member
Member # 33698
Default  Posted: 9:19 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I met XWH when I was 19. I was young, immature, and very in love with love. I saw his lovebombing and huge amounts of attention as romantic instead of needy. I also had it in my head that I was supposed to find the person I'd spend the rest of my life with at a young age. My parents met when they were kids and have been together ever since, so that was the standard that I was trying to meet. I know now how ridiculous and immature that thinking was.

I also made the egregious error of thinking that I could change XWH, and he thought that he could change me. We almost broke up when we were engaged. I wanted to live near my family, and he wanted to move to a big city. That was a point of contention throughout our entire marriage. There would be times when he was really happy here, but then there would be deep, dark valleys he'd slide into because he hated it here. I know now that if there is a major life difference between me and a future SO like that, then I need to accept that we probably won't resolve it, and it's best to end things. I still had that "love will conquer all" mentality. My mentality should have been more realistic.

I'm sure that my self-esteem played a role for a long time, but I do feel very differently about myself now. While I would love to find someone to share my life with someday, it's no longer a goal that I'm pursuing desperately. I was so desperate to be coupled up when I was a teenager, like there was something wrong with me if I were single. While the S/D was scary and made me feel lonely and vulnerable at first, I feel totally different about my life now. If I meet someone, that would be lovely, but I'm surprisingly at peace with being single; I don't mind it at all. I think that's simply because I'm in my late 30s, and I've grown up.

My FOO issues trace back to a relative who treated me poorly, and I desperately wanted acceptance and love from that person. At the time, I thought it was my fault and that there was something wrong with me. I'm sure that influenced my desire to be with someone so needy who wanted me so desperately. Later, I grew up and realized that the relative was very damaged, and my family and I were better off without that person's toxic presence in our lives. Once I realized that my self-worth had nothing to do with my relative's hurtful behavior, I felt free... and I think that I started to move on and, in certain ways, move away from my XWH because he hadn't changed and hadn't grown up. That's why he "needed" to have his A-- he no longer was married to a woman who wanted to be his doormat in various ways. I started asserting myself and changing, and he didn't like that, so he went and found himself a new doormat.

Great thread, and I love that Peter Gabriel song. In the early days of my anger, I used to listen to that all the time, thinking of my XWH when Gabriel sang: "Don't talk back / Just drive the car / Shut your mouth / I know what you are."


BS (Me) 39
Happily liberated!
Two DS and One DD
It matters not how strait the gate,/How charged with punishments the scroll./I am the master of my fate:/I am the captain of my soul.--"Invictus," William Ernest Henley

Posts: 3604 | Registered: Oct 2011
Housefulloflove
♀ Member
Member # 38458
Default  Posted: 2:56 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Broken attracts broken. I was when I picked him."

^This. This sums up our relationship so well.

I chose him despite the fact that he wasn't the kind of guy I wanted, not even physically. I know that if the circumstances were different I would never have dated him let alone married him. I met him at a very rough low point of my life and I was 18 and impulsive. He seemed like a quick fix and I took the opportunity he presented me with. I felt a lot of guilt for that during our marriage and rather than deal with it, I tried to "make up" for it by accepting anything from him and putting no demands on him. I grew to love him over time (yes, I was a broken mess who married a man that I didn't love). To me marriage is for life and I had already married him so I needed to shut-up, grow-up and do whatever it took to keep things running and make a loving and peaceful home for our kids. I was afraid to express any feelings most of the time because I convinced myself that they weren't valid. Ex has a lot of FOO issues that made him into the narc he is today and part of that was shutting off ALL emotions. He was literally like a blank slate. Happy, sad, indifferent...same blank reaction from him. He would smile in social settings and laugh at a joke but that was it as far as an emotional response from him. 10 years together and I didn't see him cry once! I filled in all of that blank space with a bunch of qualities I assumed he must have had because he was loyal and provided financially. That was more than my father gave my mother.

My father has ALL the signs of being a narc and learning about my Ex has taught me so much about my father and explained A LOT of things about my childhood that I couldn't understand. Growing up I could not understand why my father would hurt me as though he got pleasure out of seeing me cry. At the end of my parent's marriage, he cheated on my mother with her best friend without apology (not his first affair just the last one.) When they divorced I was 14 and VERY angry at my father for what he had done but he would not acknowledge what happened. He pretty much just removed himself from my life until my 18th birthday when he showed up at my door in tears about how proud he was of me. Even now that I'm dealing with infidelity in my own marriage he won't acknowledge what happened and he gives me "words of encouragement" and acts like he has never been a WS.

I could write a mile-long list of faults and crappy things from Ex that I dealt with but in the end they don't matter as much as the fact that I chose to live with it. Some of the things I dealt with were absolutely disgusting (for instance I could count with my fingers the amount of showers he took in a YEAR! ) I put up with that crap and didn't say a word (to this day). I was so damn broken that after about 3-4 months into our marriage I stopped asking him to bathe and convinced myself that I was supposed to learn how to deal with anything. He mirrored my values and morals and I was convinced that this "good guy" was nothing like my father and didn't deserve my negativity. I needed to be a "better" person and that meant being a person who could eat any shit-sandwich with a smile!

Over the years I made myself deny every part of myself including my emotions and thoughts. A lot of my anger has to do with that. For 10 years I battled myself to stick it out no matter what and change whatever I could to make him happy and in the end it wasn't good enough. Everything is the same as nothing to that narcissist and I'm angry as hell that I wasted so much on a creature that I KNEW was foul from the beginning.

He didn't dupe me. I duped myself. I had a lot of shit I didn't understand or deal with from my past and now is the time to do it. Although I struggle with feeling victimized, I'm not a victim. I was a willing participant until the bitter end. I now know I have to do some serious "digging in the dirt" to get to root of my issues or I'll just end up another crappy situation with a different cast of characters.

I'm so sorry this turned into a novel. I'm actually going to write all of this down in my journal. OP your post really got the wheels turning this afternoon! Thanks for that


Me-29 Starting over
ExWH-29 Probable NPD, PA, manchild
3 beautiful young children
DDay 1/20/13 Admits PA
No remorse so NO R. DIVORCED! 9/2013

Posts: 541 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: USA
Topic Posts: 13

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