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Divorce/Separation Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: How hard does WS have to "work" for it?
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 9:56 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Nope. Not on AD. Strongest medicine I take is Sleepytime tea. :)

I was seeing 3 different IC weekly at one point (while I was trying to settle on one) and none of them have recommended it.... yet. They all felt like I was making steady progress.

I had my IC session this morning with the one I ultimately "picked." I was extremely weepy. Talked to him about the things I outlined here. Told him I'm struggling with getting work done. He said he wants to bump me up to 2x a week for my visits to see if we can't get me past this hump. I imagine if I don't start to turn it around soon, AD could be on the table.

If WS is as crazy as it seems and maintains this sort of aggressive NC, maybe it will only take me a few more weeks to adjust. Right now it just seems like I have lots of triggers. And, of course, I miss him like crazy.

I'm open to seeing what comes. I've been secretly debating a career change now that he and I are no longer on this pre-set "path" together and that could be overwhelming. I have lots of hoops to jump through with my current job between now and November-- so I need to get to a point where I either lose myself in work or I will need something to get me through.

I'm hoping continued IC and examination of the relationship will help me get past this stage. Maybe I'm in the "bargaining" phase? I mean, I defriend him on FB, he reappears on gchat, I block him, he cancels his cell. Are they related? I don't know. If they are, I want him to know that I'm not blocking him or defriending him out of bitterness-- I just don't want to be hurt and abused anymore! If he would like to apologize and have an adult, sane conversation about our situation, I would love that. But that's why I put up this post: should I be responsible for reaching out and making it comfortable for him? Given that I have no idea what's going on with him and can only speculate on where he is based on his actions, I think you are all correct when you say that his actions say I need to stay away and he doesn't want to talk to me.

I ran that line I put up here yesterday about having to accept that I'm not "special" with my WS and he's perfectly capable of doing to me ("poofing") what he did to his fiancť. IC really surprised me by pointing out that, because we were together so much longer and the relationship was so much more intense, that he actually might be even MORE motivated to not only NC me to hell and back, but to really be personally aggressive and hostile about it.

So I need to stop with these mind movies and "gut" feelings that he's this poor, misguided, FOO baby who just needs me to give him a green light for him to realize that he wants to deal with his shit. Assuming he has normal and healthy responses to things is what got me in this situation in the first place!

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 10:00 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
ladies_first
♀ Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 10:20 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If he would like to apologize and have an adult, sane conversation about our situation, I would love that.
How much time have you spent imagining his perfect apology to you?

Now...

Compare that to the amount of time you've imagined the conversation about filing for Divorce.

IC really surprised me by pointing out that, because we were together so much longer and the relationship was so much more intense, that he actually might be even MORE motivated to not only NC me to hell and back, but to really be personally aggressive and hostile about it.

Look at your surprise. Why were you surprised?


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2113 | Registered: Jun 2009
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 10:45 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How much time have you spent imagining his perfect apology to you?

Now...

Compare that to the amount of time you've imagined the conversation about filing for Divorce.

I would actually say they have been equal in the last month. My fantasy for the perfect apology is that he tells me he has stuck with IC and has either received a diagnosis (if that's what the problem is) and/or that he's realized he can't keep running away/steamrolling people in his life every time he makes a mistake and he's going to keep working on himself. Then he'd apologize to my family (whom he's also cut out). Our friends (whom he has also cut out). And even his old fiancť. And then he'd go deal with his sh*t and send the occasional postcard. If he asked for R I would tell him he is free to choose to quit his current job, move back across country, find a new job, get his own place, continue with IC and then, maybe, if he shows he's trying, *maybe* we could have dinner some time. I would also be okay with attending IC together (not MC explicitly, IC) to work on what happened in the relationship, breakup, etc. But I wouldn't feel safe seeing him outside of IC.

Even in any of these scenarios, D is happening. I just hate that D looks like it's happening with no closure and his continuing to go off the rails. I wish I could just get pissed... but I know too much about how his dad turned out (not good) and I so see the potential for him to implode. Hopefully it won't come to that. I would get no karmic pleasure from finding out his life sucks without me. I honestly just don't think he can help himself.

Now if I find out I have him all wrong he's wildly successful without me, marries OW and is happy as a clam with babies and puppies and rainbows--- FTG.


Look at your surprise. Why were you surprised?

Same reason the A surprised me: we were fine before the physical separation and the new job this year, in love, great colleagues, best friends, etc etc. I think I stabilized him day to day (without even knowing it) and he made me happy. But the A and his reactions since are showing me what an effed up interior life this dude has and how he really, really, really can't be alone with himself or he goes crazy. I'm late to the "your partner was totally disordered and f-ed up the whole time" party and I continue to be mesmerized by what he's capable of...

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 10:53 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
NewMom0220
♀ Member
Member # 39036
Default  Posted: 8:42 AM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm on a very low dosage of Zoloft. I was 10 days postpartum on DDay and about two weeks later I went to the doctor to get on some AD. My postpartum hormones and the horrific DDay emotions were just too much. I was up and down and up and down and I didnít eat for what seemed like weeks. Within 30 days of giving birth I was down 46 pounds (about 10-14 of those pounds were the baby and baby related weight).

I went off of the medication about 3-3 Ĺ months after DDay. I recently went back on them and I can really tell a difference now. I feel like Iíve regained control of my life and most of my thoughts. Iím not triggering as much and Iím holding it together more. I feel more together. Itís weird. I donít know if itís my consistent 180, the AD, or both combined, but I feel like a solid brick wall rather than a leaf being blown around by every emotion.

Itís kinda scary. Recently I've started to feel like I donít really miss my WS anymore. I see him almost everyday because of the baby, but I feel like in the last week Iíve made a big change. I feel like you might be going through a certain phase because it rings so familar to me. Iíve been thereÖ.maybe even just a few weeks ago.

Talk to your IC and you can get a prescription from your Primary if your IC cannot prescribe meds. Youíve said before that you lost a lot of weight and you werenít sleepingÖ.and you donít have to live like that. It's a personal choice and people have their own opinions about relying on medication, but if you need it's good to know they are there and they help.

But more importantly, take care of yourself girl. Be nice to yourself. Say nice things to yourself when negative thoughts creep in. I can see that you are getting the message that you need to shift your thinking to yourself rather than your WS. That's good. That's progress. Woo hoo!

[This message edited by NewMom0220 at 8:47 AM, August 2nd (Friday)]


Me: BS 36
Him: WS 36
10 month old DS
Married 5 years, together 8, DIVORCING!!!
DDay: 3/1/13 (4 Month PA while I was pregnant)
Sometimes all you have to do is forget what you feel and remember what you deserve.

Posts: 313 | Registered: Apr 2013
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 12:29 PM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I might consider it. I've been encouraged that I've had a few "okay"/"good" days here and there and I've been trying to focus on extending those, getting work done, etc.

But I have dips. Actually, last night was a *really* bad one. I've mentioned elsewhere that ever since DDay my dog (who is 17) started un-housetraining herself. I've talked to the vet, had her tested, read up about the behavioral aspects of this and it just seems like between WS's aggression/raging when he was still here (which we had never seen before) and my emotional state since, she is doing this as a security/anxiety thing.

Last night she peed in the bed again. Told her no, I changed the sheets, took her out. She woke me up at 2am, 3am, 4am to take her out, tell me she was too hot (turned on the AC), tell me that she wanted more water. By 5am I was crying and overwhelmed by lack of sleep, I just got my period, I had a mini-fight with a girlfriend that afternoon, I got slammed with an email with more work to do than I expected this weekend, and the dog was just generally making me nuts. Then, 6am, wake up to try to start and day-- and she pees in the bed again while I go to the bathroom and put on clothes to take her for a walk.

I'm calling the vet again and buying doggy diapers, STAT.

Since this all began to happen in late April, I totally felt like my whole brain and body chemistry was changing. Some of it was just the trauma. I can remember the exact moment that I felt my loving memories of him slip away. It would be weeks before I could even look at a photo of one of our vacations together and remember anything about the trip! A night like last night, on one hand, I think the crying is good and cathartic and understandable. A lot of it still has to do with WS and the A... but that's just sort of the foundation on which all kinds of other shit piled up and I know that, too.

Maybe AD would help. I'll try the double IC sessions this week and take it from there.

How people handle this stuff *with* actual, human kids, I'll never know. You are all saints.


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
SBB
♀ Member
Member # 35229
Default  Posted: 5:20 PM, August 2nd (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How people handle this stuff *with* actual, human kids, I'll never know. You are all saints.

The pain is the same - IMO the kids give me someone else to focus on, kind of like a respite.

What is hard with kids is seeing their pain and trying to help them with it whilst dealing with your own.

I hope your old girl is OK. Not the same thing at all but I was made redundant from my job of 18 years. I knew it was coming as my boss was heading to NZ and they would have found another job for me if I wanted it but the sting? It was brought waaaaay forward - I found out the day after DD.

In hindsight I'm glad it all happened at once even though it was awful and I never want to go through any of it again.


Sending all of the love and strength I can muster to Phoenix1 and her family.
"Death leaves a heartache no one can heal, love leaves a memory no one can steal."

Posts: 4482 | Registered: Apr 2012 | From: Australia
dindy
♀ Member
Member # 38424
Default  Posted: 3:29 AM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think perhaps that your WS knows you better than your friends know you and so he knows that his efforts will be lacking because he lacks remorse. He simply does not want to face what he has done and if he sees you or talks to you then he has to face it. His loss.

Exactly this ^^^

My Ex never showed any remorse and the above quote describes him exactly, and by the sound of it, your WS too.

My ex went straight to OW on DDay when I threw him out of our home. Then when we agreed to R (false R) he met her and told he he loved her and that they needed to end their A, but never actually told me exactly what he said to her. He was aways hazy saying he couldn't exactly remember what was said. Yeah right!

I think he is still living in unicorn land even though she shat herself and went NC with him when I told her BS about the A.

It makes me laugh that he is holding out for this woman who clearly never really gave a shit about him in the first place.

Good old karma!

You are dong a great job, stay strong. :)


Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: uk
cmego
♀ Member
Member # 30346
Default  Posted: 12:01 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Grief is cyclical, not linear. You are going to bounce around for a long time...it is a roller coaster of emotions. You will uncover things about yourself, doubt yourself, want him back, then hate yourself for thinking that at all. It is all normal.

The bottom line, no you haven't made it impossible for him to contact you. It is HIS choice to act like this. If he really wanted to talk to you, he would find a way to do it. He sounds like a master compartmentalizer...just puts you in a compartment and walks away. These are how affairs happen...compartments. I know my ex has major FOO issues, and one of them is the ability to compartmentalize like a fiend.

The other thought that helped me was understanding that I couldn't change ex. I can't wish him to be someone he is not. He is who he is.

What you want is the fantasy version of your ws. The one who swoops and and apologizes and makes everything right again.

Same reason the A surprised me: we were fine before the physical separation and the new job this year, in love, great colleagues, best friends, etc etc. I think I stabilized him day to day (without even knowing it) and he made me happy. But the A and his reactions since are showing me what an effed up interior life this dude has and how he really, really, really can't be alone with himself or he goes crazy. I'm late to the "your partner was totally disordered and f-ed up the whole time" party and I continue to be mesmerized by what he's capable of...

^^^^ I think with some distance, you will begin to accept you may not have been as happy as you remember. I used to tell people I was really happy, then slapped in the face by discovering I didn't know my ex at all (...was having gay affairs). The further out I became, the more I realized how lonely and unhappy I was in my marriage. I was holding onto my my fantasy version of my own life, and my fantasy version of ex. When I stopped to think about it, I really wasn't happy in my marriage. It was part of my coping mechanism...the "fake til you make it".

This is hard work, take it easy on yourself. Remember it is a process and you will bounce around before really seeing light at the end of the tunnel.


me...BS, 43 years old, 2 small kids
WS, 40, multiple gay affairs
M 15 years, separated 3 years, together 17
Alis volat propriis "She flies with her own wings"
separated 1/2011

Posts: 3578 | Registered: Dec 2010 | From: Virginia
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 1:17 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

^^^^ I think with some distance, you will begin to accept you may not have been as happy as you remember

I am honestly terrified of this. Over the time we've been together, beyond specific things about him, I've been in a job I *hate* and I found out I had an autoimmune problem that has been miserable to learn to deal with. I thought he was the only good thing to come out of this phase of my life. Yeah, he made me nuts sometimes, but he really was my best friend and I was looking forward to this great little life I thought we were going to have together with moving and this new job I was about to start, having a family, etc.

So sometimes I wonder if I was more in love with the potential I saw for us in the relationship than the actual relationship. His OCD made me a little crazy. I ended up becoming bossier than I liked in trying to help us move forward with important decisions, getting him to do work, etc. the things I loved the most about us were our vacations and working together. Sex life was blah in all honesty. Adequate and totally livable, but not amazing. We shared a lot of interests and hobbies, but as work made him more busy, he didn't have time to, say, watch or talk about the game, etc.

I was saying to IC this week that this past year when we we working apart was one of the happiest in our M. But we were living on opposite sides of the country. That's effed up. I'd see him every few weeks if one of us came to see the other or we met "in the middle" for a conference or whatnot and I loved having a few days with him in a hotel, room service, touring stuff. But I didn't have to deal with his breakfast routine. Didn't have to listen to him gripe about his work load. Didn't have to sit on the 101 for 4 hrs each day to get him to and from work in my car. When we were apart wed Skype for an hour or so every night and I got my best friend without the hassle of living with him :). I wanted to be able to cuddle him and kiss him up and missed that... But there is something weird with the whole dynamic being as tolerable as it was. Once he started having the A and got distant, I thought it was a product of the distance and Skype etc which is when we agreed I needed to get out there ASAP. But had he not wandered with the A... I can't tell if my ability to live well without him was a good sign or a bad one.

At the very least, I think I idealized our future and our relationship. But I still think I was really in love. I think he was for awhile. I know he never cheated on me before. I think we had the makings of a nice little life together and I think when he's 70 or something he may look back and think "oh shit." I honestly think he got carried away with his new job, felt like a big shot, harbored certain resentments about the responsibilities of our R, feared things Like having kids because of his FOO issues, hated being alone, thought he owed it to himself to have a fling before I came back out there, got caught up in something he didn't expect and didn't know how to get out of.... And it got to the point that he began weaving a narrative about why we were incompatible or something to justify his actions. He got increasingly selfish and cruel as he felt more and more trapped by his own actions. My love for him, career and our R were collateral damage.

But it would scare me to look back and say I wasn't happy. I don't think it's entirely true and it would be me tying to weave my own narrative to make me feel like I have some control over this whole thing. The other thing is that I would then be unable to look at the last, say, 15 years of my life and say that I was happy about almost anything!!!

After my emotional breakdown this week, I'm starting to really reframe what I need to do here. I want to use this opportunity of rupture in my life to look at things about my self I don't like and to fix them. Not for him or because of him... But for myself entirely. I can procrastinate, too. I learned it from him. I want to unlearn it. I used to rely on him for a lot of help with my job. I need to own my own work and see if I can do it on my own. And if I hate this career, I need to be brave enough to find another one. And I want to be kinder and less judgmental (he was the king of sarcasm and judging). I could go on...

I'm hoping that I'll just find myself being too busy with the new me to even worry about him.

But I'm still going to miss him a lot.

[This message edited by PhantomLimb at 1:21 PM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
ladies_first
♀ Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 1:36 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You haven't found your anger yet.

But I'm still going to miss him a lot.

You'll miss your innocence, but 10 years from now it's likely you'll only miss him a little bit. Bittersweet memories.

After my emotional breakdown this week, I'm starting to really reframe what I need to do here. I want to use this opportunity of rupture in my life to look at things about my self I don't like and to fix them.

Reframing is great! Tweak a few things, but don't get so enamored by fixing your tiny flaws that you forget to move forward. Sometimes self-improvement is just another way to control the trauma and fallout. Don't live in hope if you change X or Y or Z, that your WH will come crawling back with apologies.

ETA: Does being Angry scare you?
Does being indifferent toward WH scare you?
Does admitting that you are not perfectly happy at all times scare you?

Why are you afraid of letting go, PhantomLimb?

[This message edited by ladies_first at 2:30 PM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2113 | Registered: Jun 2009
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 7:08 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

You haven't found your anger yet.

I've wondered about that. During our breakup I definitely had some choice monologues that would have made Scorsese proud... culminating in my threatening to kick her toddler in the face. So, uh, I think I had anger. Actually, I wasn't too surprised when he started texting me saying our convos were "taking a toll." I verbally ripped him limb from limb.

I just don't like holding onto the anger because I think it's a manifestation of frustration over my life taking this horrible turn and not understanding why. And I'm never going to really understand why this happened. So I feel like I just need to accept that.

But ask me about what a chump he made out of me for those months of the A and I'll see red.

You'll miss your innocence, but 10 years from now it's likely you'll only miss him a little bit. Bittersweet memories.

1000x yes. The first thing I was pissed about was the loss of innocence. He basically made me into him-- he did to me what his father did to him as a child (abandoning). It's a cycle of abuse he should have been man enough to face and to stop. I hate him for that.

Okay.. now the tough questions!

Does being Angry scare you?

I think I'm scared of holding onto anger and it turning me into a bitter person. I liked who I was more or less before this happened, save for some of the tweaks I've talked about... so I don't want what he did to define me or change me.

Does being indifferent toward WH scare you?

No. Not really. Objectively I think it will be a sad thing to get there when I get there because this whole thing is a monumental waste. But I'll get there, I'm sure.

Does admitting that you are not perfectly happy at all times scare you?

I don't think I've EVER been perfectly happy! As I say, I would say most of the last 10 years with my career have been miserable and I had no illusions about that. But I would say that my happiest moments over the last decade included him (trips, holidays, simple moments with our dog and so on). So for me to now try to convince myself that I wasn't happy or that he was always as abusive as he was during the breakup wouldn't be correct.

The best way I can describe it is that, sure, there was stuff I wasn't happy with in our R, but the good always far outweighed the bad. But the A has put the bad into sharper relief. And his behavior during the breakup was just SO BAD and out of character and insane that now, if you put the good and bad on a scale, it's not even a contest. I've never seen someone so spectacularly blow something up.

I've been wondering if the best way for me to describe this is that anything he did that I can see was a signal that he was capable of an A-- like his terrible impulse control-- was more him abusing himself than abusing me. Sure, it affected me because I was his partner... but, ultimately, he wants to blow his life up by procrastinating or driving himself crazy with his manorexia... I can't fix that sh*t for him.

Why are you afraid of letting go, PhantomLimb?

This might evolve and, certainly, I have been totally and completely wrong every step of the way so far... but I still can not believe that this is how we're going to end. I don't know what or how long it will take, but my gut just says that he will realize this is a huge mistake. And I'm afraid he'll realize it after there is no turning back for me.

So this might be a head/heart thing. Head says run. Heart says "do I have to"? But as my hope runs out and time passes, I know my head and heart will get more in line.


BS / D

Posts: 785 | Registered: Jun 2013
ladies_first
♀ Member
Member # 24643
Default  Posted: 9:15 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'd be willing to state that every victim of injustice desires justice. But few ever get it.

And I had a friendship with an exBF that was nothing for him to worry about, but it bothered him. ... I wish we had talked about it and I'd been a little more understanding. Breaks my heart.

In retrospect, I think I can see how that friendship could be construed as an EA.

In retrospect, you realize *you* had an EA, but you have not reached out to your WH to admit you made a huge mistake.

I don't know what or how long it will take, but my gut just says that he will realize this is a huge mistake.

Do narcissists ever admit they made a mistake?

ďThere are no happy endings.
Endings are the saddest part,
So just give me a happy middle
And a very happy start.Ē

~Shel Silverstein, "Every Thing on It"

[This message edited by ladies_first at 9:42 PM, August 3rd (Saturday)]


"We must be willing to let go of the life we planned so as to have the life that is waiting for us." ~J. Campbell
"In the final analysis, it is your own attitude that will make or break you, not what has happened to you." ~D. Galloway

Posts: 2113 | Registered: Jun 2009
PhantomLimb
♀ Member
Member # 39668
Default  Posted: 9:50 PM, August 3rd (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In retrospect, you realize *you* had an EA, but you have not reached out to your WH to admit you made a huge mistake.

I think it could be "construed" as one... meaning, mistaken for one. I have nothing but feelings of friendship for this guy-- he's like a brother to me. So no EA there if EA means that I was sharing some kind of love or affection for my exBF that should have gone to my WS during our R. I used to go to movies with him and for the occasional walk to talk about our lives and mutual friends. Sure, I talked about issues with WS with him... but I don't think that violates any trust.

And, frankly, there was a year or so where we didn't even speak because he was the OM in an affair and he wouldn't listen to anyone's advice about needing to end it. It got to the point where it was too frustrating to try to reason with him and lots of his friends realized we just had to leave him to it to learn his lesson. The WS he was having the A with went back to her husband and had a baby. He was crushed for years. Over time he regained his friendships... but it's not even like this guy was a permanent presence in our lives the whole time.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean... but I'm not sure that I need to reach out to WS at this point to apologize that he was suspicious and insecure. I don't think a friendship that I had before I even ever met him is justification for him to have a PA the first time we're not together for a few weeks.

I often told WS that one of the reasons I loved him was because he trusted me and wasn't a jealous type. I liked that he was self-assured. His faith in me was really valuable and important and I wouldn't have risked that. Evidently he was faking that on some level.

During DDay#1 when WS said he "never really knew what happened there" with exBF I just cried and told him he was wrong. Frankly, I hope he feels bad for ever suspecting me. I think that comment might have just been him trying to justify, anyway. But I still feel bad if he really believed that it was a cause for concern and never talked to me about it.

And throughout our breakup, my exBF and his wife have been there for me just as much as my family, if not more. exBF would talk to me for HOURS everyday and help me deconstruct what WS was saying/doing (he's a therapist). exBF was the one who helped me 180/NC WS so quickly because he had the objectivity to see that WS wasn't truly remorseful. I would have never been strong enough to do that without his guidance. exBF predicted the A had gone underground and really prepped me for handling that. He also prepped me for being able to NC after DDay#2. I've spent more time crying on their couch than any place else. They made sure I was eating. exBF was even the one who made sure I took a shower and otherwise took care of myself in those first days after DDay#2.

So if I invested in a friendship with exBF, I think I was right to do so. At the end of the day, he was there for me on DDay and after... WS wasn't.


BS / D

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