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User Topic: Must men always be unfaithful?
nomoreplease
♂ Member
Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My definition of "lusting" is thinking about, fantasizing about, desiring another man besides my husband in any (physical, emotional, intimate way).
So where are the cutoffs for all of these things? I would guess that you think about other men in some form quite often. What constitutes fantasizing? Is this just thinking about someone fondly (I would guess you have done this)? Or does it have to be full on sexual? What is ‘desiring’? Can it just be hearing that a friends H did [insert whatever you desire] and thinking, ‘I wish my H would do that’ (which I would guess you have done)? Or again does it have to be full on sexual?

The thing is you are making this very black and white, and using one aspect of men (the fact that they are generally more visual) to throw them into the black.

Treating women as "objects" to be used and discarded, their worth evaluated as how they can "benefit" a mans sexual desire...
This may be true for a SA, but it is far from true for all men. I know many men that would kick the crap out of anyone they saw treating a woman like this.


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 380 | Registered: Jul 2011
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 3:58 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stilllovingher,

Fanks...


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Housefulloflove
♀ Member
Member # 38458
Default  Posted: 4:01 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

My father had affairs throughout my parent's 14 year marriage. It scarred me greatly. One of the things Ex and I talked about many times over the course of our marriage was the strong feelings I have about cheaters, how much my father's exit-affair with my mother's friend changed my relationship with him (and it never recovered), how I've never seen a relationship that didn't involve cheating and how he was *literally* the only man I know who hasn't cheated on his wife.

And every time the subject of cheaters/cheating came up he made sure to boast about how HE was a better man!

One of the things that I'm trying to work through is not letting what Ex did become confirmation that all men are cheating assholes. I had that opinion when I met him, made him the exception and now have to have faith that although he is NOT that exception, there ARE in fact good and faithful men.


[This message edited by Housefulloflove at 4:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


Me-29 Starting over
ExWH-29 Probable NPD, PA, manchild
3 beautiful young children
DDay 1/20/13 Admits PA
No remorse so NO R. DIVORCED! 9/2013

Posts: 541 | Registered: Feb 2013 | From: USA
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:06 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

nomoreplease,

The "cut off" would be in an "intimate" way. In other words if I would have to be embarrassed by anything I said, thought or did in front of him...it is just not OK to do, think, fantasize about. How could I in all good conscious, expect from my husband, what "I" would not be willing to do myself? I promised to be faithful, I live up to it. If I didn't mean it, I wouldn't say it...and certainly wouldn't "promise" it.

From my perspective...what would be the point?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 4:16 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

no problem,
I understand where ur coming from.
at one point I truly believed (and this may be offensive) that all Hispanic males would like to sleep with my FWW...
...That most any military person would jump at the chance...
because FWW picked a Hispanic former marine(I think) for her AP.

Eventually we have to face these demons, or they will take hold. We have to see these beliefs for the lies that they are, and reject them.

you said:

It is so easy to love...why not "choose" love? That has always been "my" question

I cant tell you I know what exactly "love" is, and all it entails, but I will say one thing about it...love is truth.

so, my challenge for you, AStar and Monica63 is this:
Choose truth.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2401 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:24 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wonderboy, you said: "But what's the paradigm of a man for you? Is it the father figure or the other sex addicts in your life? Or is it all men in general?"

It has been every man I have ever "loved". This is why I try to emphasize "MY" opinion, experience, perspective ...etc...I have no other perspective to draw upon..


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sounds like your FOO issues have lead to you using a broken picker.

It's not uncommon for someone with a childhood issue to try and find a similar person in their adult life to try and work out the issues with a different outcome. Not sure if that ever really works though.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
DeadMumWalking
♀ Member
Member # 25341
Default  Posted: 4:29 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The short answer to your question is: NO. It is NOT the case that men MUST ALWAYS be unfaithful.

It seems to me that your issue has more to do with SA than with 'men'.

You know there are SA women too, don't you? And SA gays? So being cheated on by your life partner is NOT just something that men do to women. Women do it to men (there have been SA WW members here on this site), men do it to men, women to women, it can appear in any configuration.

From what I understand, SA has to do, at least partly, with intimacy avoidance. You say that you need intimacy because you are a woman. Well there are men that need intimacy as well. They're just not SA.

I think that what many have found so offensive about your statements is that (a) they are blanket generalizations and most definitely do NOT apply to everyone (haven't you seen how many BH there are here - and NOT all from PA, there are EA issues for many men as well), and (b) many of them do not even seem to be true.

I urge you to try to be more aware of the diversity of infidelity experiences here.

There have been several really good questions posed to you to help you to start digging and working on fixing YOU - not least by wonderboy. You will make better progress toward your healing by working to figure out what it is about you that seeks/finds/accepts SA men - or at least why you don't decide to avoid them like the plague.


Me (BS), Him (WH): early 50's
3 DS: teens!!! :)
M: 24 (19 1/2 at Dday), Together 29
Dday: Dec 2008
re-separated (in-house), for good (??) <-- should really remove these, shouldn't I...

Posts: 2538 | Registered: Aug 2009 | From: EU
SuperDuperWonderboy
♂ Member
Member # 34716
Default  Posted: 4:43 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It has been every man I have ever "loved". This is why I try to emphasize "MY" opinion, experience, perspective ...etc...I have no other perspective to draw upon..

I am not trying to criticize you or your opinion at all.

What I am trying to do is point out that your version of what men think, is probably a very skewed version (having been based on your interactions with SA men). I am not pointing this out as a blast to a generalization, I am pointing this out as something that maybe you need to be cognizant of in your healing, dealing with this mess, and in your interactions with male figures going forward. Whether or not it is with your current husband or someone else in the future.

I think your past experiences with men, and the fact that you have been married to three SA's (whether by accident or by choice) may be something that could be addressed through IC or reflection.

END T/J I promise.

To address the original poster:
No, not all men cheat. My father didn't and to my knowledge neither did either of my brothers. Interestingly enough, all three of the brothers have been cheated on by their wives.

And no, I don't think all women cheat either.

[This message edited by wonderboy at 4:44 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


My Friends call me Wonderboy--That's Mr. SuperduperWonderboy to you Tred.


Posts: 1272 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Everett
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 4:47 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DeadMumWalking, you said: "There have been several really good questions posed to you to help you to start digging and working on fixing YOU "

Sorry, but to be repeatedly told..."it has nothing to do with you"..by IC's and others....and then have yet others tell me (basically)...It is ALL about YOU...
can leave a person in quite a conundrum if you know what I mean?

No, I do not take responsibility for my fathers SA or any of my husbands SA addiction problems.
I look at it this way, If I can't make you be "good", I sure as heck can't make you be "bad". Just my thoughts anyway.

There are no quick fixes to anything, just a choice of whether or not to try (given all the information) to apply what has hurt you in your life into becoming a better person because of it.

My goal is to learn as much as I can about forgiveness/forgiving as this has been my greatest challenge so far.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
sunflowergirl30
♀ Member
Member # 28979
Default  Posted: 5:10 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Monica63, i really like this;


"I look at it this way, If I can't make you be "good", I sure as heck can't make you be "bad". Just my thoughts anyway."


I think its very spot on. Its all about choice.


Together 20yrs married 17yrs
2 kids, now 18 & 15
Bw: now 37
Wh: now 36
Mow: now 49
1st D-day EA w/mow our realtor 4-?-2007, 2nd D-day PA w/ same mow 5-29-2010

Posts: 1049 | Registered: Jul 2010 | From: Pacific Northwest
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 5:18 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stilllovingher: you said: "
I cant tell you I know what exactly "love" is, and all it entails, but I will say one thing about it...love is truth."

My definition of "love".. Love is making the choice and decision to love.
Love is not unconditional and comes with great responsibility. Love is more than a "feeling" it is a "knowing" and a state of "being". Love is a verb not a description of a noun...Love is an "action" not based on self but a deep affection based in truth. Love is trust, faith and hope all put in action. Love is empathy and respect in giving and sharing all of this with another. Love is "exclusive" in an intimate relationship called marriage, and set apart for just these reasons.

This is my definition to the best of my ability to explain it.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 5:33 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think u may have missed my point...'sokay, it took me about 4 years to challenge those strongholds enough to break them.

I wouldn't consider it to be a top priority in the early stages of recovery. I started challenging it only when the beliefs started bothering me.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2401 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 6:03 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

wonderboy, you said: " I am not pointing this out as a blast to a generalization, I am pointing this out as something that maybe you need to be cognizant of in your healing, dealing with this mess, and in your interactions with male figures going forward. Whether or not it is with your current husband or someone else in the future. "


Oh, (sigh) I know exactly what you are saying and believe me, if I did not hold out hope ..there would not have been *3* marriages.

Because I have had to do intensive (extensive)studies based upon SA to understand how the male brain works "differently" from my own being a female...(The "experts" explain how the mind of a SA works and why)...

The information helps me to understand how to deal with the "side" effects I am dealing with being in a marital relationship with a SA.

The brain produces chemicals similar to cocaine in SA. It is a cocktail of endorphins, dopamine...etc

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had. These chemicals were intended to bond a man with his wife. When a man misuses sex....he damages himself with the inability to bond correctly with his spouse.

See how clinical it all is?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 6:19 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stilllovingher,

I know, can you imagine how I felt knowing my husband was looking at porn and imagining having sex with hundreds of other women? My hurt when he hired escorts to have sex with? Going to strip clubs to be tit-ilated? (pun intended)

I have always been considered a very attractive woman and I still am. I have good self esteem and I am by no means stupid. SA destroys everything a woman wishes to "gift" her husband with.

So do I understand your point...yes, the similarities of being rejected for what is the "best gift" we have to offer of ourselves..is what crushes both our spirits and pains our hearts beyond measure.


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 6:50 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do understand, our brains are not so different afterall. You sound so hurt right now, crushed as you said. I'm not so far removed from this storm that I can't remember how that goes...it sucks!

I think the key for you will lie in differentiation, you are more than this M, more than a W, and certainly more than a BW.
You've been through this before, it takes time, I know.
Maybe try putting less emphasis on how HIS mind works, and more on how YOURS works, its incredibly freeing.


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2401 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
20WrongsVs1
♀ Member
Member # 39000
Default  Posted: 7:13 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Monica63, I haven't done the extensive research you have. May I ask for clarification on this?

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had

Are those chemicals released when women have sex? Or is it exclusive to men?


fWW: 42
BH: 52
Sweet DS & fierce DD, under 10
"Between stimulus and response there’s a space, in that space lies our power to choose our response, in our response lies our growth and our freedom." V. Frankl

Posts: 1046 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Redneck land
gahurts
♂ Member
Member # 33699
Default  Posted: 7:40 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Because I have had to do intensive (extensive)studies based upon SA to understand how the male brain works "differently" from my own being a female...(The "experts" explain how the mind of a SA works and why)...

The information helps me to understand how to deal with the "side" effects I am dealing with being in a marital relationship with a SA.

The brain produces chemicals similar to cocaine in SA. It is a cocktail of endorphins, dopamine...etc

These self same chemicals are released when a man has sexual relations with any sex partner he has ever had. These chemicals were intended to bond a man with his wife. When a man misuses sex....he damages himself with the inability to bond correctly with his spouse.

See how clinical it all is?

It's unsettling how you break this down to men's behavior vs women's behavior.

XWW was only interested in the sex act. I was begging for intimacy.

XWW blew apart our family while I was trying to find a way to keep us together.

She was selfishly focused on herself while I was trying to nurture our children through the mess and not expose them to more drama then they had to endure.

You have ascibed your experiences to "how men think and act". I am very sorry that you have been hurt so bad throughout your life, but the thoughts and behaviors you are discussing are not men vs. women. It's broken individuals vs healthy ones, Waywards vs faithful spouses.

[This message edited by gahurts at 7:41 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]


"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indominable will" - Mahatma Gandi

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway." - Aubrie


Posts: 3335 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Georgia
StillGoing
♂ Member
Member # 28571
Default  Posted: 7:49 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, I believe all men cheat. Men are visual in their sexuality and naturally attracted to beautiful women. Sex starts in the "mind" and an unchecked mind can turn lust into actions.
My definition of cheating is if you think it, lust it, imagined it...you did it!
The male brain can not tell the difference between "looking"..i,..e..(visually) at a woman and completing the sex act and actually "physically" being with a woman and completing the sex act. His mind and brain can not tell the difference and will respond the same..this is what research has proven.

No, there's no actual research for that, honestly. There's not even any actual neurological research wrt sexual addiction as a neurological basis, in fact (I'm not saying there is no such thing, mind, those behaviors certainly do exist and are very real). Any research that is cited is correlation taken from other studies.

I'm fairly certain it's been addressed but what you said there is factually wrong. While I can't argue that you believe all men cheat - it's what you believe - I can pretty easily deconstruct anything put forward as actual hard proof.

If we look at that philosophically then we're all murderers as well - and the female mind isn't different enough from the male to say "It's not the same."

The truth is that thinking things and doing things are different, and it's a lesson we learn as children. In fact, one of the most important lessons we learn is that there is a reality outside our heads that is not affected by our thoughts. Theory of mind is an expansive and interesting topic but it's cogent in the sense that thinking != doing.


“Fate is a fickle bitch who dotes on irony.”

Posts: 7370 | Registered: May 2010 | From: USA
Monica63
♀ New Member
Member # 40024
Default  Posted: 8:07 PM, July 25th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

20WrongsVS1,

I can list the books I have read about SA as well if you want me to?
Sex Addiction and Substance Abuse

Newsweek reported that there are 9 million sex addicts in the United States and at least 40 million Americans log onto 4.2 million pornographic websites daily. The growing speed of sex addiction may be attributed to the easy access to all things explicit found on the internet. The internet is accessible in many different forms and sex and/or porn addicts can access their drugs of choice from various sources of technology throughout the day.
Sex Changes Brain Chemistry

Much like a drug addict, a sex addict is also dependent on chemical changes in the brain which produce a euphoric feeling. Having an orgasm produces a neurochemical change in the limbic system of the brain. The limbic system is responsible for emotions, drives, impulses, desires, decision making, happiness and survival. Dopamine is the primary neurochemical that activates your reward circuitry. It can be released through various activities which include but are not exclusive to sex, eating, taking risks and even drinking water. Once the reward activity is ceased, dopamine activates cravings for it. For example, dopamine will create a motivation for eating chocolate cake because consuming chocolate cake activates natural opiods found in the brain which produce “feel good” sensations. Dopamine is never satisfied and continues to crave opiods. Regarding sex, dopamine drives the desire for an orgasm; however, it is opioids that are responsible for the production of the orgasm. Addictive activities and substances strongly increase dopamine levels unnaturally. Deregulation of dopamine levels happens through various activities such as:

Cocaine use
Encountering extremely attractive casino hostesses
Clicking through porn
Eating junk food filled with fat and sugar
The correlation between activities that elicit dopamine and the feelings that they produce can cause an addict to continually engage in self-defeating activities. Tolerance builds as a result of repetitive behavior and the addict needs to increase the rate of behavior to achieve the desired euphoric effect. The cycle of addiction is perpetuated by the physical and psychological cravings produced by the addiction.

There is more to this article but I am not sure how to post the website?


Me:BS 50
SAWH 53
DD 11/10/2012
SAWH used pornography, escorts, dating sites
Currently in Recovery

Posts: 21 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Northern Va
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