Directly, I used a modified 180. I worked a lot on me, but I didn't truly/completely cut her out. She spent the first 8 months mired in the *what have I done/I'm so sorry" phase. Very little remorse though. She honestly didn't have a clue as to what she could do to help me or the marriage heal. I helped her out.
I didn't hold her hand, or give her sticky notes or anything like that, but I would give her suggestions(that I usually found here) or just tell her directly if I knew. That wasn't too often til I got myself a little straightened out. Lot of Me time.
8 months in, she asked me to buy her a book. Knew the title and what she wanted to do with it. That was the first sign that I was on the right path.
FWIW, FWW was emotionally abandoned by her parents from birth as far as she knows. Can't remember a Christmas, Thanksgiving or any family event together. Even better, can't remember either parent she was told "I Love You " by. In the 13 years we've been together, I've never heard it either. At an early age she began to seek out positive affirmation from older men. One of her first memories of POSER is of him fucking her when she was 12 or 13. She thinks he was 17 or 18.
I only bring that up in the context that there may be some other issues affecting your FWW. It might be difficult for her to even know where to begin.
other issues affecting your FWW
Too many to count. Parents divorced when she was 6. Stuck with her dysfunctional mom, whom I never heard an "I love you" out of the 15 years I've known her. So that is very similar. Extreme, extreme case of narcissistic personality disorder. She is literally incapable of viewing anything outside of herself. No concept of love outside of how the relationship benefits her desires and once it no longer does, torch it. Even things we would consider as part of mundane daily life are guided by what she can gain from it. She can't even give her grandkids a piece of candy without asking for something in return.
WW struggles with empathy and growing up had no concept of unconditional love. Love was something bought and paid for. Every little feeling has to be validated. Really quite sad.
Jetpack fueled and fired up...
Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."
On a lighter note. We're trading recipes on the Menz forum. Wait til the wimmenz get a hold of that!
The longer I think about it the more I realize I need more help. I need to reach out to a psych and look at some meds. I did not think I am depressed but damn if I can concentrate. I’m going to blow it all to hell at work if I don’t get some help. I was on AD’s for a while. They helped. I got off because I was “better” and they got in the way with sex. Anyone else here need to go back on AD’s?
Even now typing this I can see how her gestures could be perceived by everyone here as merely manipulation tactics to bring me back in the fold.
ETA: Found - do what you need mate. I resisted it for way too long. I'll take numb over what I used to feel for now.
[This message edited by Tred at 7:22 PM, August 21st (Wednesday)]
Actions, not words
That's it exactly. Couldn't quite put my finger on it. Right now I'm mostly getting words, good words, words that need to be expressed but still only words. Other than NC actions aren't as apparent currently. Someday I hope she graduates to actions that will let me love her again.
That's it exactly.
Aesir, nice pic. Don't google eye candy though. Or do it.
Too bad, I was going to start working on my six pack but it doesn't prevent cheating? I guess back to the drawing board.
I'll be what I want to be. I like girlish drinks and not beer. I'm okay with that.
I like girlish drinks and not beer. I'm okay with that.
Debating if I should make some crab apple cider this fall, then let it freeze outside and remove the ice.
Do not back up. Severe tire damage.
Awesome. I actually make a pretty tasty jelly with them!
Down to 30
Narcissist, sociopaths, and psychopaths.
When they’re feeling threatened or bored, psychopaths will often use what’s called “word salad” in an attempt to keep your mind occupied. Basically, it’s a conversation from hell. They aren’t actually saying anything at all. They’re just talking at you. Before you can even respond to one outrageous statement, they’re already on to the next. You’ll be left with your head spinning. Study the warning signs, and disengage before any damage can be done:
1. Circular conversations
You’ll think you worked something out, only to begin discussing it again in two minutes. And it’s as if you never even said a word the first time around. They begin reciting all of the same tired garbage, ignoring any legitimate arguments you may have provided moments ago. If something is going to be resolved, it will be on their terms. With psychopaths, the same issues will come up over and over again—why are they so friendly with their ex again? Why are they suddenly not paying any attention to you? Why do they sound so eager to get off the phone? And every time you bring up these issues, it’s as if you never even had the argument in the past. You get sucked back in, only to feel crazy & high-maintenance when they decide “I’m sick of always arguing about this.” It’s a merry-go-round.
2. Bringing up your past wrongdoings & ignoring their own
If you point out something nasty they're doing—like ignoring you or cheating—they’ll mention something totally unrelated from the past that you’ve done wrong. Did you used to drink too much? Well then, their cheating isn’t really all that bad compared to your drinking problem. Were you late to your first date two years ago? Well then, you can’t complain about them ignoring you for three days straight. And God forbid you bring up any of their wrongdoings. Then, you are a bitter lunatic with a list of grievances.
3. Condescending & patronizing tone
The entire conversation will have this calm, cool demeanor. It’s almost as if they’re mocking you, gaging your reactions to see how much further they can push. When you finally react emotionally, that’s when they’ll tell you to calm down, raise their eyebrows, smirk, or feign disappointment. The whole point of word salad is to make you unhinged, and therefore give them the upper hand. Because remember, conversations are competitions—just like anything else with a psychopath.
4. Accusing you of doing things that they themselves are doing
I mentioned this in the previous section about psychopaths putting you on the defense. In heated arguments, psychopaths have no shame. They will begin labeling you with their own horrible qualities. It goes beyond projection, because most people project unknowingly. Psychopaths know they are smearing you with their own flaws, and they are seeking a reaction. After all, how can you not react to such blatant hypocrisy?
5. Multiple personas
Through the course of a word salad conversation, you’re likely to experience a variety of their personalities. It’s sort of like good cop, bad cop, demented cop, stalker cop, scary cop, baby cop. If you’re pulling away, sick of their abuse and lies, they will restore a glimpse of the idealize phase. A little torture to lure you back in with promises of marriage and children. If that doesn’t work, suddenly they’ll start insulting the things they once idealized. You’ll be left wondering who you’re even talking to, because his personas are imploding as they struggle to regain control. Our beloved administrator, Victoria, summed this up perfectly: “The devil himself was unleashed in a desperate fit of fury after being recognized: twisting, turning, writhing, spewing, flattering, sparkling, vomiting.”
6. The eternal victim
Somehow their cheating and lying will always lead back to a conversation about their abusive past or a crazy ex. You will end up feeling bad for them, even when they've done something horribly wrong. You will instead use it as an opportunity to bond with them over their supposed complex feelings. And once they have successfully averted your attention elsewhere, everything will go back to the way it was. No bonding or deep spiritual connection whatsoever. Psychopaths cry “abuse”—but in the end, you are the one left with nothing.
7. You begin explaining basic human emotions
You find yourself explaining things like “empathy” and “feelings” and “being nice”. Normal adults do not need to be taught the golden rules from kindergarten. You are not the first person who has attempted to see the good in them, and you will not be the last. You think to yourself, “if they can just understand why I’m hurt, then they’ll stop doing it.” But they won’t. They wouldn’t have done it in the first place if they were a decent human being. The worst part is, they pretended to be decent when you first met—sucking you in with this sweet, caring persona. They know how to be kind & good, but they find it boring.
Everyone messes up every now and then, but psychopaths recite excuses more often than they actually follow through with promises. Their actions never match up with their words. You are disappointed so frequently that you feel relieved when they do something decent—they condition you to become grateful for the mediocre.
9. “What in the world just happened”
These conversations leave you drained. You will be left with an actual headache. You will spend hours, even days, obsessing over the argument. You’ll feel as if you exhausted all of your emotional energy to accomplish absolutely nothing. You will have a million pre-planned arguments in your head, ready to respond to all the unaddressed points that you couldn’t keep up with. You will feel the need to defend yourself. You’ll try to come up with a diplomatic solution that evenly distributes the blame, and therefore gives you both a chance to apologize and make up. But in the end, you’ll find that you’re the only one apologizing.
[This message edited by Betrayed444 at 8:17 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]
But I've run a couple of companies that had Board members that were 100% full-on *this*. Scary.
A common factor not mentioned is one reason they can play Word Salad so effectively is they never actually listen to what ou are saying, they're using your talking time to compose their next move.
A had one guy, a well-respected professor from one of the leading Ivy League colleges that was totally off the charts this way.
A trick I learned fron dealing with him was to insert nonsense phrases into my sentences without changing my pitch or cadence. When he didn't react, I knew he was tuned out and could act accordingly.
[This message edited by MoreWould at 9:05 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]
Just something to consider - where do you think your STBX is getting these ideas?
“The devil himself was unleashed in a desperate fit of fury after being recognized: twisting, turning, writhing, spewing, flattering, sparkling, vomiting.”
[This message edited by FacePunched at 9:22 AM, August 22nd (Thursday)]
9. “What in the world just happened”
I can't begin to tell you how many headaches and confused days I have had when dealing with the craziness. Years worth probably. For the longest time I thought I was the problem. It took a while but I finally learned I was being manipulated and played. Even now, after the
A she still does it. I call her on it now but she still continues on and just changes tactics. I have figured out that sticking to the topic or just disengaging is the best option. Monotone voice, emotionless, arms crossed, standing up straight, and ending the converstation when it stops being a conversation is the best thing I can do. Shields up, phasers on standby, escape route locked into navigation computer.
Now, if you can get past the admittedly goofy title, it's actually really fucking awesome. It's not so much a book about "Hey, here's how to be a real man." as much as it is a book that lists certain virtues and includes a series of essays, poems, speeches, etc., either about or demonstrating the particular value. I'm loving it.
Great lead, thanks. I went to Amazon, read the reviews, ordered a copy. Might buy a couple of more for my sons come Christmas time. Also found a link to their website. That's pretty cool too.
I spent my whole life around Feminism. You go Girlz! I'm all for it, but not the emasculation of the Menz which has been a fellow traveler. These days I'm pushing the Manosphere.