TC, I think she will agree to a blame neutral stance. I also believe she will follow through with that -- at least in words. However, I do worry that her body language will tell a different story. Also, I would not be surprised if she sits back and lets me do most of the talking and only offers support to the "story" with specific prompting.
It's something I am going to have to address with her, which is going to be difficult if she is focused on "can't we just start fresh."
She says she will go to counseling, if I can tell her we are going to stay together. I simply can't lie. Furthermore, she also said she would read "Not Just Friends" -- but after months the bookmark remains on about page 50.
There are other things she has promised to do but has not.
I don't think that R by cattle prod is very promising. Quite frankly, I would struggle with infidelity is a deal breaker even if she was taking the lead.
And yes, I struggle with lying to the kids about why their world is about to change. Basically, we will be telling them nothing. I just don't know how we can tell them the brutal truth.
You seem to have some peace with your situation. It stinks that your wife didn't do enough to even give R a try. I understand your feelings on whether the A was a dealbreaker for you or not? I find myself in the same frame of mind.
My WW is finally remorseful. It took 17 stinking and painful months to get here. I spent so much time *worrying* and *wishing* that she would give the M a chance, I never really spent enough time wondering if that is what I truly wanted. Of course I want it for the kids, but for myself - not so much.
I will tell you that it is getting a little easier to let go of my fears now that my WW is making significant changes. To be honest I'm not yet sure that the M is what I want, but I'm committed to finding out for sure before I make a final decision. My wife knows this. She knows I may still chose to D even though her attitude and efforts have changed back to woman that I married. I think that has to do a lot with my willingness to continue.
If you are certain that the A is a deal-breaker for you, then I'd say move forward with the D and put the kids before everything else. If you have any doubts, it just may be that your wife hasn't yet reached the point of remorse. It is possible. I would agree that she hasn't shown you in her efforts thus far anything encouraging, but some day she might. My wife was pining for the POSER and resented me for 17 months. I'm not sure why I stuck around that long. I'm just saying just because she hasn't put in the work yet, doesn't mean she never will. She may just need a kick start. Tell her honestly where you are (again) and give MC a try if she is willing not knowing how things will end up. If she isn't willing to *put herself out there* so to speak to even give MC a try without a predetermined outcome, then I would move on if it were me as well.
Food for thought only.
[This message edited by thinkingclear at 8:24 AM, August 16th (Friday)]
Tread carefully and warily sir.
She says she will go to counseling, if I can tell her we are going to stay together.
This is maddening. It's like someone telling the EMT's after a serious car wreck "You can rush my husband to the ER, but before I run up those medical bills I need to know that he's going to survive his injuries."
Counseling is needed to try and save the marriage. She wants to know what the end results of her efforts will be before putting in any effort. Just the chance that her marriage might be salvaged, with no guarantees, is not sufficient motivation to go through the time and expense of counseling. Wow, that pretty much says it all.
Sorry Later. If you still want the marriage I hope she eventually reaches true remorse like TC's wife did, but she seems far from that place right now.
I just don't know how we can tell them the brutal truth.
My wife confessed some brutal truths about herself to a woman's church group with generalities: "I'm here today because I made some really bad choices that have hurt my family, especially my husband. God and my husband have forgiven me, but I'm having a real hard time forgiving myself." I'm sure the other women got the gist, while being spared the details.
Choices have consequences, and one of the consequences to bad behavior is that you often come off looking like the bad guy. My wife didn't, btw - her honesty and vulnerability actually endeared her to the other women and she now has a lot of supportive new friends.
I don't think either parent should run the other down in front of the children, but I don't see why the children can't be told that their mother made some bad choices that caused dad a lot of pain, we've been trying to work these issues out for x amount of months, but it hasn't worked and the decision has been made to divorce. We both love you very much and will work together to support and be there for you...
That's not running anyone down, that's just the objective truth. It also teaches the kids a valuable lesson that will serve them well in life - actions and choices have consequences. For yourself always, and sometimes for others. Choose wisely.
I'm no D/S expert, but to me that's just common sense.
ETA: I contradicted what I wrote on page 39 in response to jjct, but after thinking about it some more, I don't see what the alternative is for a BS in a situation like this. The kids know that there's SOME reason the marriage imploded all of a sudden, and I bet the 17 year old at least knows the precise reason. You have to find the happy medium between TMI and teaching the kids to live an honest and authentic life. Not saying that I know the exact way to accomplish that, but to leave the kids with the impression that the betrayed spouse just upped one day and decided that he doesn't want to be married to their mom anymore seems unfair to all concerned. Especially when the mother is likely to indicate to the kids at some point that divorce wasn't HER choice.
[This message edited by Sal1995 at 11:52 AM, August 16th (Friday)]
Later, I agree with Sal. I think you should describe in generalities what went wrong. Just briefly. "your mom did some bad things that hurt me. Because of this, we've decided it's best if we divorce. We both love you all. That will never change." It's too bad for your wife if she doesn't like it.
Don't run her down. She is their mother. They will love her no matter what. But you shouldn't share the blame. They will find out eventually anyway. Telling the truth is an important quality. They will appreciate it.
I wish you the best. This is a really tough thing to do.
Question to you NHBH: how much stalk should I put in "I don't remember." ?
We are 11 months out. I think she's been pretty forth coming but sometimes she just avoid it with I don't remember.
We are 11 months out. I think she's been pretty forth coming but sometimes she just avoid it with I don't remember.
That being said, like it does boil down to your particular WW's history. In my case, there was a ton of alcohol involved in the EA/PA. I mean, during the course of our 7+ year relationship there were entire conversations and sexual encounters my wife and I had with each other that she couldn't recall the next day....I mean, this was during the whole relationship, not just during the A era....and she wasn't getting blasted all of those times, sometimes it'd just be a few glasses of wine. Plus, you're 11 months out, so there's a difference between...
"Did you ever have sex at [insert random place here]?"
"What was the exact date in March you two met for lunch at the fucking Waffle House?!?"
...you know? I'd be far more likely to accept "I don't know" as answer to the second than the first. The second would've probably required her to take notice of the specific date of whatever-it-is, whereas the first is a yes or no question. I think "I don't know" is not a valid response to yes-or-no questions. Personal example: I knew a PA had occurred when I found dick pics from POSER in my wife's 'Trash' gmail folder...now for some reason when I confronted her, I posed the question as "Was that the first time you'd seen his dick?" instead of the much more obvious direct question....and her answer was "I don't know.", which is clearly bullshit. If some chick sends me a picture of her vagina, I'm probably going to make a mental note as to whether I'd seen it before that moment or not, you know? There certain questions where "I don't know" is not a remote possibility, IMO.
Later, do you intend to put on your Heisenberg hat when dealing with the wife from now on?
I do. I think I have already referred to her as "Skyler" a few times.
Again, thank you all. Whatever happens, it's going to suck.
[This message edited by Later at 4:37 PM, August 16th (Friday)]
I was thinking of RyeBread and his NO MA'AM fishing trip, and picked myself up a rye ale:
Hope everyone has a great weekend!
Actually, I am doing pretty good right now. My wife continues to be open, transparent and works hard to fix her FOO. I know that year 2 can be hard, but I'm optimistic that it will be a good year.
My wife is out tonight at the Rascal Flats concert with my youngest daughter, my oldest daughter is back at college and the boy is at a dance. I'm home by myself and I find myself in a pretty good position. My life is going well, the R is doing great, my kids are so fantastic and I have great hope for the rest of my life. And.. if she fucks it all up, I am getting that I'll be OK one way or the other. Kids are old enough that I can have a relationship with them regardless of my marital situation. So no worries tonight. Lots of thanks and admiration for those that came before me for helping me along the way. I reread all my posts from a year ago. All the support and love I experienced from those that came before me have really, really helped me along the way. I'm deeply and wholly indebted to everyone for getting me this far.
So, a toast on this Friday night. A toast to all of us survivors, and to those that will get help from SI and learn to survive. I'm not much of a beer man anymore, but I raise my glass of 4 Roses Bourbon and toast all of us! (Check the label of the 4 Roses bottle to get a hint at why it's my go to)
Good night and God bless.
For what it is worth, my year two was a LOT better than my year one. That goes against the grain of what a lot of folks out here have experienced, but I'm not about to complain about that. Seems to be different for everyone. I'll be wishing you a better year two. Maybe it will become a trend! One could only hope.
Glad to hear you are in a good spot.
Four Roses is some smooth shit, man...
Also, I was going to do the B&T but the liquor store got Sam Adams Oktoberfest in and I got excited. So I am enjoying Oktoberfest in August, and I Am Okay With That.
The things about the A that I am angry about are things I need to vent from time to time because of the onset of a depressed feeling. I discovered this a few months ago and saying these things out loud to myself was not working this time. Within two days of posting here I am feeling back to normal. I am a pretty mellow guy by nature so angry outbursts are not part of who I am. Thank you all for letting me vent. I am sure some of these things we have all felt.
My wife has been trying hard in her own way. She is a CSA victim, so packing things away and moving on are a part of who she is. She has been making an effort to change this a deal with what needs to be dealt with. Evidence of the damage CSA does is still there 40 years later. Every time I wake her up from a nap, I get the sitting up quickly and gasping breath. Really disturbing. My thing is she needs to do more as you all have stated. She knows this too am I am okay right now with being patient.
She does get it and she is remorseful. I wanted to make that clear. For example, yesterday, she said "someone at work says don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya". I have been trying to point out things that bother me as they happen, I still need a lot of work here. Anyhow, I said do you not see where my mind would go when you say things like that. It hit her like a brick shit house. Her face cringed, and she came running over to me, wrapped her arms around my neck, and said sorry it wasn't him that said that. She said sorry again and thanked me for letting her know.
I thought infidelity was a deal breaker for me, at least thats what I always told myself. I am staying for my kids right now. They are the best thing I have done my entire life. They are A students, kind and caring. I want to break the cycle of dysfunction my wife and I have grown up with. If it means dealing with bullshit for 7 more years so be it. But I am hopeful our new marriage will become the marriage I always wanted.
Again, thank you all for your sage wisdom. I will be hanging around and posting
CSA, does that mean Childhood Sexual Abuse?