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User Topic: Betrayed Men Part 12
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:38 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just wanted to add that I'm not saying that every BM should practice self-delusion as a tool to deal with all this bullshit. I'm just saying that for me, I don't know that I need *objective* truth as much as I need a narrative that doesn't fucking shift every time I think about it too hard.
If my WW is still withholding info about the A unbeknownst to me, but is going to IC, working on herself, all that good stuff, then maybe in the future she'll get to the point where she wants to reveal all this stuff she feels bad about lying about post-DDAY....but at that point, honestly, she can keep that shit to herself, because if I'm healing already and have settled on a narrative that works for me, then giving me more info at that point functions only to assuage her own guilt, it doesn't really do jack shit for me.

That's not to say that you don't demand the truth upfront after DDAY and for a while after, I just think each person has to decide for themselves when you don't care enough about the 'facts' to pay the price in upheaval for the info.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1587 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 10:07 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I hear ya FacePunched, and that's wise advice. Perhaps I'm unusual among the BMs here, but if she did in fact fuck her 61 year old llama it doesn't bother me any more than the kissing and feeling up and sexting. It doesn't change the depth of betrayal in my mind. The damage to be done is that she didn't come clean when she was given the chance, and as you or someone else already said, that puts everything else into question AGAIN - "a total mindfuck."

For me this cheating really is all about the betrayal of shared intimacy that was supposed to be ours, not hers and some failed douchebag who can't keep a girlfriend.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 10:21 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

but is going to IC, working on herself, all that good stuff, then maybe in the future she'll get to the point where she wants to reveal all this stuff she feels bad about lying about post-DDAY....but at that point, honestly, she can keep that shit to herself

THAT nails it FP. that is far more important that knowing, really knowing the truth. but a contradiction of sorts at play here... IF your WW is truly fWW THEN there should be no secrets. ok, nothing silly here like "I wore pink panties not the black ones as I told you earlier"; but if its hidden OMs or acts not owned up to (how many times have we heard "it was an EA not a PA", only to find out later that it was). in effect, biggies are what makes a spouse unsafe; no matter how they are now. transparency and remorse go hand in hand. lack of transparency (past or preset) = unsafe spouse. maybe my thinking on this is so binary because I am acutely sensitive to TT for the years of abuse from it.

as for polys; they cannot detect lies of omission (so unless you know what to ask, you wont know if they are lying about it); polys also only can take 2-3 questions per session - limiting your options; polys also go wrong with other stressors in a person - so, its not so much about beating a poly as it is about what it records; and finally, polys have been known to fail easily with those in self denial/revisionist thinking - which I presume many WS's are adept at.

I'm yet not saying polys are useless, use it if you need to. you may get where you want to get to with it - either the truth or peace of mind. shame that it has to come to this with someone so close or anyone intimate in our lives outside of a professional context...

I'd say that outside of those of us who suffer from some form of sustained paranoia (not to say the days after DDay weren't, to some extent, that), the onus should be on the WS to prove trustworthiness rather than a poly to do it for you.

ETA: early submit

[This message edited by noescape at 10:29 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
noescape
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Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

could've just posited

"how can you heal what you cannot feel?"


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

FP

You have had some great and insightful posts on this thred but this one just nailed it to the door (ie Luther) for me.

My WW didn't do much right, I built a narrative that's "close enough for government work", and it's good enough.

Just the other night, after several doses of tequila-based truth serum, she let a little factoid slip that she's been TT'ing for over 30 years. And you knw what? I didn't give a fuck. I'd figured it out years ago by dead reckoning, didn't need her to rock my boat.

Yo da man!


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
MoreWould
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Member # 37982
Default  Posted: 10:32 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

DP

[This message edited by MoreWould at 10:33 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Me BH/WH, 63
Her WW/BW, 62
Her DDay Dec 1976 OMW at the door
My DDay, ~ 2years later, confessed ONS the next day
R via "Sweeping under the rug"
Still married, 40 yrs, mostly OK
2 kids, 24 & 20

Posts: 347 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Colorado
nuance
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Member # 28793
Default  Posted: 11:33 PM, July 31st (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Polys help because of the parking lot confession.

Arab, I'm years out and happy now. But my FWW knows I wouldn't take any shit like that. If she doesn't want to stay the door is right there. I would expect the same from her if I was the one having doubts about our M. We are in it because we want to.

WB: Washington state is great! But the rain will affect how much you golf... On the plus side a hot day there is when it's 80 degrees.

Congrats WAL! I'm sure you guys will be the best.

PS: How come the BM thread is losing to the LTA thread? We shoul be #1! :)

[This message edited by nuance at 11:33 PM, July 31st (Wednesday)]


Dday May 2000. R'ed.
People suck.

Posts: 1159 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: California
Sal1995
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Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 12:09 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The threat of a poly, with the understanding that being caught in a lie would end our marriage, is what made my WW finally end the TT in May. Except for a revelation about exchanging dirty pics, deep down I already knew what happened. She's my wife, so I'm well aware of what she'll do in bed. A 10-month PA pretty much provides the opportunity to do anything under the sun, so I had no illusions about what happened. I just couldn't stand the bullshit anymore.

I get that she was just deeply ashamed, but you know what? - tough shit, we're married. I'm supposed to know all about her sexual encounters because I'm supposed to be participating in all of them with her. I have no sympathy for that kind of shame. It's the price for engaging in shameful behavior.


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1025 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Stillkicking
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Member # 38246
Default  Posted: 1:45 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

A.S. , I am with the rest of the guys here, pretty sure it went further than what she's telling you, either way like you said, doesn't matter what she did the fact remains that she still did it.

As for her being a shit lier, how long did she keep the affair secret before you found out??? She must have some sort of skill, maybe a lot more than you know. I thought I knew everything and my gut was silent and then BAM!!! More shit on the sandwich. Either way bro keep
Your eyes and ears open and DE-FUCKING-TACH my friend, if she wants the marriage, then let HER do the work.

Good luck.

ETA: fucking iPhone junk

[This message edited by Stillkicking at 1:48 AM, August 1st (Thursday)]


You'll never learn to fly
until your standing at the cliff

I reserve my right to feel uncomfortable reserve my right to be afraid.
I make mistakes and I am humbled every step of the way.


Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Canada
Mr. Kite
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Member # 28840
Default  Posted: 9:07 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

sustained paranoia

Damn...this should have been my screen name.

On the subject of polygraphs...Mrs. Kite agreed to take one but specified that she would not answer any questions covering the first 9 years of our marriage...WTH?

She doesn't drink so the only truth serum left for her is fits of rage. When she's lost control, what's hidden in her fizzing brain comes pouring out. That's the only way I get truth.

Wouldn't a sociopath, an individual with no empathy for others, be able to beat a poly? Or how about someone that's told the same lie for so long that they've come to believe it? Either way, a poly would be a waste of time and money in my situation.


Posts: 900 | Registered: Jun 2010 | From: Mid-Atlantic
Stillkicking
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Member # 38246
Default  Posted: 9:37 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

On the subject of polygraphs...Mrs. Kite agreed to take one but specified that she would not answer any questions covering the first 9 years of our marriage..
.WTH?

Kite dude, this would be a fucking DEAL BREAKER!!!! No more lies, no more fucking secrets. No truths, no fucking marriage.

I forgot how bad Keith's on tap wrecks a guys head the next morning, somebody pass me the percs. Stupid weekday drunk, I am never doing that again... Till next week


You'll never learn to fly
until your standing at the cliff

I reserve my right to feel uncomfortable reserve my right to be afraid.
I make mistakes and I am humbled every step of the way.


Posts: 126 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Canada
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:20 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Right? "Hold up there, buddy... I'm only answering questions about THIS round of cheating"


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1587 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
5454real
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Member # 37455
Default  Posted: 10:54 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

that is one super sized sandwich she's asking you to take a bite of.

how in the hell do you deal with that?

sorry brother, that's way too many red flags


BH 50, WW 41
DS 23(Mine),SD 21,SS 19(Hers),DS 8 Ours, DGS 2 1/2
D=Day #1 5/04EA (Rugswept)
D-Day #2 3/10/12, TT til 3/13/12
Married 10yrs
“I have no love for a friend who loves in words alone.”
― Sophocles, Antigone

Posts: 2065 | Registered: Nov 2012 | From: midwest
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:59 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree... She's basically pleading the 5th on the first 9 years....I couldn't leave that issue alone, if it were me.


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1587 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 11:14 AM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

noescape-

I agree there's a slight contradiction there. I guess to me it's kind of a public vs. private kind of idea. Inside my own head, I know that I can never be 100% sure that she's told me EVERYTHING...but that doesn't mean that I don't push the issue of full disclosure to her out loud...I think the poly is more about telling myself "You've gotten about as much out of this well as your going to....", because either she's being honest (which you can't be sure of anyway) or she's able to beat the test, in which case she's not likely to come clean on her own anyway. In either case, the narrative is probably going to stay the same going forward, so maybe I feel like I need that to progress in healing?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1587 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
ArableSands
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Member # 39830
Default  Posted: 12:23 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

stillkicking:

I am with the rest of the guys here, pretty sure it went further than what she's telling you, either way like you said, doesn't matter what she did the fact remains that she still did it.

Evidence points in the other direction. I get it that the guys here have seen all of the shit, but outliers do exist. Come on, guys. While I'm already suspicious as fuck, I'm trying hard to remain rational.

As for her being a shit lier, how long did she keep the affair secret before you found out??? She must have some sort of skill, maybe a lot more than you know. I thought I knew everything and my gut was silent and then BAM!!!

Because my gut was NOT silent when she was cheating. I ignored it. Which is fucking stupid, as everyone here knows. Gut now is not twigging at her story. It's too consistent, and aligns too well with the evidence, for her to be lying about this.

But suspicious I will remain.


Posts: 224 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: Vancouver, Canada
thinkingclear
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Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Some interesting topics going on here. I think it boils down to having some 'peace' and 'closure' with the narrative. Acceptance that you know enough to move forward with R or acceptance that the line in the sand was breached.

progress in healing?

What does it take to start the healing process ? This is where I find myself these days. At least in terms of R. I know what it is that I want to have to start healing. I want a completely remorseful WW; I want full disclosure; I want empathy; I want her to face my pain and not flinch; I want her to feel she is privileged to a degree to be given a second chance; I want her to work on changing her habits that have led us here; I want her to learn how to be a more mature partner; I want her to work her ass off to prove herself to me; I want a heck of lot a slack as I work through all of the crappy emotions that I never asked for to begin with.

I'm sure I could keep going. My list is long. I haven't yet found peace with the narrative. I think it is largely because my wish list is never going to be fulfilled. My WW has had a really rough couple of days. The stress of it all is coming through and she is reverting to her old patterns of defensiveness, self-pity and grade A passive-aggressive behaviors. She says "She can't do this anymore" and "she is trying to come to terms living with someone that doesn't like her for another 14 years" (implying that when our 3 year old is out of the house, so is she). She is struggling because I struggle. The validation supply has run dry. I struggle because I have lost nearly every once of fondness for her over the last year and half of pseudo-R.

I guess I just need to decide what it is going to take for me to be at peace with the narrative and move forward knowing that my 'wish list' is going to be incomplete or decide to move on without her. She told me today that she feels "overwhelmed and hopeless". Those feelings didn't make it into the top ten of my wish list.

Just venting. Just having one of those days today.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 12:33 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
gutpunch33
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Member # 36484
Sad  Posted: 12:52 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm mostly a lurker, but really enjoy the support I receive from reading all the comments in the Menz forum.

Tuesday will be my 1 year antiversary of DDay. My fWW has been an absolute model of what a remorseful spouse should look like. Owning all of her shit, sorting through her FOO every week in therapy, has never once said that her cheating had anything to do with me.

Because of issues of self-loathing, lack of boundaries created by a horrible upbringing and a need to please, she found herself in a terrible predicament where she felt unable to say no when an old friend from high school came on to her. (She was actually raped in high school, bruises and all. But because she was so afraid of her parent's abusive reactions she DATED THE RAPIST for 2 months so that in her head she could pretend that what he did wasn't rape! How fucked up is that thinking?!) Seriously, not dealing with FOO issues and past abuse issues can make a person really FUBAR in the head.

So, my fWW has owned everything, worked really hard for almost a year now and will continue to work for years to come on her FOO. Plus, she has removed herself from having any sort of relationships with either of her parents. She gets it, totally.

REGARDLESS of how much she owns it, gets it, whatever.... This has been the #1 most difficult and painful experience of my life. And it continues to be. I'm just left with this horrible angst and pain that still lingers. I've gained 15 pounds, drink a lot, work suffers (thankfully, I own my own company), and most days I waste hours and hours just sitting in my office unable to get out of my funk. Basically, I was always a very confident, aggressive, go getter that never backed down from anything. Now I feel like a pathetic chump that would rather hide.

Long winded prelude to a short question: Do you guys think that getting past the 1 year Antiversary will seriously reduce the angst and sadness that I am experiencing? Not that I expect on August 7th to wake up and it all be over, but is there any magic to getting past year 1?


Posts: 25 | Registered: Aug 2012
nomoreplease
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Member # 32755
Default  Posted: 12:57 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

AS,
Sorry to say it, but add another bet to the ‘there is more to the story’ pile.

I would say my XWW was a shit liar, too (even though she did it a lot). I often caught her in lies. I would call her out right away, or just ignore it because it wasn’t worth the fight. The thing is, when it came to the affair it didn’t matter how bad of liar she was or how outrageous the lies were because I wanted to believe her (this is part of the BS ‘fog’). For months, it was one kiss. Then for months, it was kissing often with one heavy petting session. It wasn’t until I gave her the option of a poly or D that she admitted sex once. Then a few weeks later, another choice of a poly or D and then it was sex 3 times. At this point, I believe there was probably a lot more than this, but that was when I stopped threatening because I had enough information that I could make peace with the A even if there were more lies.

ETA: My M did not end because of my XWW's A or anything that happened during it, but it ended because of her inability to step up and be an open and honest partner following her A. While I accepted that I would never know everything about her A, I refused to live with continued lies and deceit.

[This message edited by nomoreplease at 1:02 PM, August 1st (Thursday)]


'one walks away saying "I fought to save God's ideal," and the other must always admit, "I fought to destroy God's ideal!"'

Posts: 343 | Registered: Jul 2011
numb&dumb
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Member # 28542
Default  Posted: 1:09 PM, August 1st (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TC sorry you are having one of those days. If I was nearby I would buy you a beer.

My W had a significant amount of time post Dday where she would shut down. I think her IC called it paralyzing shame.

The fact that she alludes to a D in the future isn't cool at all. The only thing that worked for me was when I followed up that statement with, well why wait ? I didn't want a D then either, but I called her bluff. In this case it is almost certainly a bluff or Passive Aggressive thing.

Has she done anything to make amends that you list ? Or does she find excuses ? Is she clinging to the hope that this will just go away ?

Maybe you go black and white. Do this or I will file.

You may not like her, but that is because she has been pretty cruel to you. Maybe if she tried harder, it would improve ?

During this time I set some boundaries of what I needed to stay. None of it was negotiable at first. It was not an agreement to R, it was agreement to not D her.

I gave 6 months which I would not leave or file. In return she had some things she needed to do. I removed every excuse she gave me. Followed by if you are not willing to put in the effort I can meet with the attorney tomorrow. She got mad sometimes, but I was clear. It allowed me to regain my sense of self and put the burden of her choices squarely on her. I was more than willing to let her feel the full consequences of her choices. Anything less than a D was mercy and I told her so.

Just putting that out there in case you needed a different approach.

FWIW- this only works if you let go of the fear of a D and she knows the threat of D is real. She knew if we did D, everybody would get the reason we D'd. I would be a survivor and she would be the cheating W. I was comfortable with that narrative.


Me-35 her-35

DS 1, DD 6
Dday 8/31/11. ONS that occurred 3 years earlier. Lied to for 3 years.

Every truth comes to light in a long enough timeline.


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