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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N P D Thread - Part 12
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 1:04 PM, December 11th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

NPD is characterized by a lack of empathy for those around them. If the mask is slipping and you are seeing no empathy, chances are it's NPD.

My XH is a covert narc, he is great at reading someone's body language and mirroring them so you think he has empathy. His actions tell a very different story.

Hugs


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4002 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
TheAgonyOfIt
♀ Member
Member # 39114
Default  Posted: 7:05 PM, December 13th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

what are the books that you might have found most helpful for communicating with a narcissistic, unempathetic asshole?

i have to kick him out of my life forever, but first i really would like for him to sign a piece of paper giving me majority profits on house sale.

it's the right thing to do, since i paid most into the mortgage, like way most, but he is under no legal obligation to do it.

i have a feeling it's a lost cause, but if there is anyone who has actually found help in negotiating with a narc, i would be most grateful for book or other recommendations!

thanks
Truly in Agony today.


Me BS 49,Him: narcissist! Truly. 4.5yr LTA. DDays 4/2013, true Jekyll Hyde. Working through my anger at myself for making entirely too many compromises, and so so many excuses for him. Upset at my blindness.

Posts: 523 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: theagonyofit
phmh
♀ Member
Member # 34146
Default  Posted: 7:24 PM, December 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

liberty rocks -- My XWH was never officially diagnosed (as far as I know) with a personality disorder, but he has almost all of the traits of NPD and quite a few for ASPD.

What helped me try to understand was doing a ton of reading on narcissists, sociopaths, etc.

I still have instances where I think of some NPD thing he did that I'd forgotten about, and times when I wonder how the hell he can live with himself after having treated me so poorly, and then I remember that he just doesn't have any empathy. He's not actually human.

I'm not sure how NC you can go with him, but that's what really helped me. Luckily we didn't have kids together and he moved out of the area.

The damage these PDs do is great, but you can work through it and find happiness beyond what you can imagine in the beginning.


Me: BW, divorced, now fabulous and happy!

Married: 11 years, no kids

The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark. -Michelangelo


Posts: 3097 | Registered: Dec 2011
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:35 PM, December 14th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((TAOI)))
Negotiating with them, getting them to actually sign something is tricky. I used "It's no big deal"(diversion), and "I'll do this if you do that" (bargaining). Absent that ( & I was blessed let me tell you!), I'd say put the conundrum to your lawyer.
I think the book on negotiating with a narcissist is titled "Fuck You If You're Lucky" is out of print...well, maybe I'm just imagining it and it hasn't been written, or maybe, if you're in the mood to see eyes get wide and pop out you could ask at the counter.

phmh, they're not actually human. Isn't that strange? There is no there there - right enough!
I just get humble and all, really, thankful I'm not living an empty existence...
Not pitter-pattering back and forth between two false self images, not believing a lie.
This awareness does not require me to be perfect.
Just awake.


Posts: 5996 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
Abbondad
♂ Member
Member # 37898
Default  Posted: 11:51 AM, December 15th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Negotiating with them, getting them to actually sign something is tricky. I used "It's no big deal"(diversion), and "I'll do this if you do that" (bargaining).

JJCT,

Would you mind elaborating on your experience negotiating? My first mediation she refused to concede on ANYthing. Even her attorney tried to talk sense into her. Total impasse.

We have our second mediation on 1/7. Trial is 1/24.

She is as NPD as they come. She may very well force this to trial, in which case I will have no choice but to unleash hell.

Advice on how to handle her in mediation? Last mediation it requested separate rooms. This time I want to be at a table--look her in the eye. I also want my attorney to get a sense of her before trial to see whom she will be dealing with. (My attorney has never met her. Her own attorney has met her only once or twice.).

Thank you!


Divorced April Fool's Day 2014

Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
-Dune


Posts: 1449 | Registered: Dec 2012
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 12:43 PM, December 15th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Would you mind elaborating on your experience negotiating?

Know what motivates your opponent. For example, does she need to win? Then refuse to fight. Hide/disguise what is important to you. If the custody is primary TO YOU, then "fight" over the house, or the money or something else.

How do you argue? Remember that ego is pretty much ALL there is to an NPD. Be sure to find a way that the ego is not what the NPD is fighting to protect. You may have to do all sorts of gymnastics and lip biting to keep from engaging the ego.

Can you look beaten? Can you stomach letting her believe she has won?

The best tactic is to somehow make the NPD believe that whatever the solution is, it was their idea!!! For example, Stretch actually told the mediator that the children should be with me for Easter each year because I was the one who had a church and tradition. I just kept my mouth shut.

Have a plan. Itemize what is MOST important to you and be prepared to give up most of what isn't important. Let the NPD have the first few wins. In other words, don't start negotiating at the TOP of YOUR list.

Keep all of your emotions hidden. Look beaten at the beginning. If destroying you is important to your NPD, then appearing already beaten takes some wind out of the fight.

Focus on the characteristics that were part of what caused you to be selected by the NPD. Highlight those. I dressed the part of the teacher, mother, homemaker. I reminded him that I was what he wanted for his children, without ever opening my mouth or asserting it. Stretch actually told the mediator all the reasons I was such a good mom. He was so smart to marry me, and now it was smart of him to have me do the heavy parenting!!

If you go in fighting, then a fight is all you will have. If you go in smart, then you hopefully won't HAVE to fight at all.

(((tribe)))


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5289 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
TheAgonyOfIt
♀ Member
Member # 39114
Default  Posted: 12:37 AM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am starting to search for an attorney. we are not married though so there is not much to negotiate around. only the house sale. I might have to eat it, but I think I owe it to myself to try for what is "right." Not the he cares. He actually asked me once "why should i pay you back." Huh? Excuse me? Because that's what one does when they owe money? He Does Not Get It. And Does Not Care. He seems to be entitled, to all that is mine.

I just really need for own self protection an attorney that actually wants to help me, not just collect hourly. I am strong in some ways, but beaten down and emotionally vulnerable now. He will no doubt be the picture of charm, jokes, when we do meet with someone, whereas I will try not to, but may look like the sad, lost, angry, loser person, or at least give myself away by accident. I need a True Advocate. Such is the nature of NPD spectrum abuse. I am not diagnosing, just observing traits. And they nearly all add up.


Me BS 49,Him: narcissist! Truly. 4.5yr LTA. DDays 4/2013, true Jekyll Hyde. Working through my anger at myself for making entirely too many compromises, and so so many excuses for him. Upset at my blindness.

Posts: 523 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: theagonyofit
RedWheelBarrow
♀ Member
Member # 38966
Default  Posted: 4:22 AM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

caregiver9000, thanks for posting this about negotiating with the narc. This is what I was thinking, pretty much. But it helps immensely to read you saying it!


Me: BW 50
Him:Rockstar late 50's
DS: 10 , so precious.
Married 14 years, together 17 years
DDay #1 Nov.2012, plus more, more, more!
OW : 25 years younger than him, left her BH for my prize beast.
He moved in with her April,2013.
D Filed 4/

Posts: 78 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: NW
Abbondad
♂ Member
Member # 37898
Default  Posted: 5:21 AM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you, Caregiver,

I am actually taking notes on your post. Very helpful.


Divorced April Fool's Day 2014

Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
-Dune


Posts: 1449 | Registered: Dec 2012
Compartmented
Member
Member # 29410
Default  Posted: 8:52 AM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I got some help out of these books:

SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder
By Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. and Randi Kreger, co-author of Stop Walking on Eggshells and

It's All Your Fault! 12 Tips for Managing People Who Blame Others for Everything
By Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq.



Can you look beaten? Can you stomach letting her believe she has won?

^^^ This!!! To them it is all a game, and if you let them believe they are winning, you can fare better in what you ultimately get. Grimace as if it hurts when you let them "win" certain points. Show no emotion when you get what you want.

Posts: 1049 | Registered: Aug 2010
Lostandpregnant
♀ Member
Member # 41433
Default  Posted: 10:06 AM, December 16th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This helped me a lot:
http://afternarcissisticabuse.wordpress.com/about-ana/

And I made this list the screensaver on my phone, because some of the steps REALLY sum up a NPD person:
The Seven Steps for Moving Forward

1. Recognize that the chaos will not last forever

2. Accept that it is really over

3. Integrate the fact that your husband has changed irrevocably and is beyond caring for your welfare

4. Understand why he needs to justify his actions in any way possible including rewriting history, lying or attacking you

5. Give up trying to get the acknowledgement and apology that you deserve

6. Turn your focus from the past to the future

7. Celebrate your freedom as a single person


He left me 18 weeks pregnant with twins for another.I am a Licensed Private Investigator..it even happens to us.

Posts: 354 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: Canada
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 9:50 AM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

All of the above. It helped when we went to trial to look like a mom very concerned for her children. Even his attorney (male) went easy on me-according to my attorney (female).

I can't emphasize making 3 lists :very important (must haves) , important ( stuff I can live without , if I have to) , and stuff I don't care about.

Then play the shell game, hiding what is important to you.

When he threatened me with injunctions against me taking the kids out of state for a job.. I told him that I would have the kids schools fax the records to the schools they would be attending when they live with him. I had a full 2 minutes of silence from him! The next words out of his mouth were very telling " I thought your kids meant more to you."

Not "our" kids or "the" kids but "your" kids. Just goes to show you what my XH was thinking "everything" is negotiable even the children.

Hugs,
K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4002 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, December 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another negotiating tool is to find out how far in the hole the NPD is with their attorney. If you are the unfortunate (or fortunate) one paying the settlement, and your NPD isn't paying his/her attorney, offer the attorney a solution.

My NPD would not settle, would not sign off and would not agree to anything. And then would claim i was the one who refused to settle. He hadn't been paying his attorney and his attorney had repeatedly advised him to settle rather than go to court.

My attorney & I approached his attorney and told him to do what ever he could to get NPD to settle and we would make sure he got paid by putting the settlement check attorney's firm name with NPD shown as client. His attorney had to run the check through the firm account and NPD got what was left.

*edited for clarity*

[This message edited by sadtoo at 11:11 AM, December 18th (Wednesday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7925 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
Abbondad
♂ Member
Member # 37898
Default  Posted: 5:27 AM, December 18th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks to all. Reading your responses carefully...

(I have read Splitting. Very helpful)


Divorced April Fool's Day 2014

Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
-Dune


Posts: 1449 | Registered: Dec 2012
PhoenixRisen
Member
Member # 35912
Default  Posted: 7:36 AM, December 19th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you go in fighting, then a fight is all you will have. If you go in smart, then you hopefully won't HAVE to fight at all.

LOVE this!! Thank you Caregiver!

Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2012
GreatRoleModel
♀ Member
Member # 36809
Default  Posted: 7:11 AM, December 20th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have been lurking in this forum for the past 2 years now and first I want to thank you all for the best advice I have ever received over the years. NC being the absolute best tool in the world when dealing with the NPD except when necessary bc of kids. It is driving him crazy and has helped me beyond measure in dealing with his ass. I know he is beyond selfish but I think he hit a new low this week. I discovered our 14 yo had been cutting in dealing with her sadness related to her relationship or should I say poor relationship with her father. I immediately made an appointment with a counselor that specializes with teen girls and this behavior and let him know. Now he is a top executive in a major company and makes high six figures and he carries the health insurance for the kids. I did not choose an in network provider bc in the past I have used out of network coverage for other services for the kids and it was not an issue. So he is willing to only pay 25% of the fee bc that is what his in network copay would be or he would find an in network therapist...like hell if I would trust him to find a therapist. The biggest irony is that HIS therapist in the past was out of network and he paid the 100% for himself. So I have to cover 75% of the cost, but I am thankful that he at least agreed to let her to continue seeing the therapist bc my daughter really liked her as I did too. Also it is ok for him to fly every other weekend to Miami to see his girlfriend but can't cover his daughters medical needs. I could fight this but would cost more in legal fees and he knows it. There has to be a special place in hell for these people who put their needs above their kids. I just pray that my daughter comes out of this healthy and with better skills on how to handle her emotions and find a balance in her relationship with dumbass. He doesn't deserve her.


BS (me)
XWS (him) NPD
DIVORCED!!!
It takes a village to deal with the village idiot!

Posts: 227 | Registered: Sep 2012 | From: NC
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 10:31 AM, December 20th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

(((GRM & DD)))
What you said!
I pray you both continue to find healing sister.

I cannot fathom the harm to children that so often occurs - they are innocent. Puts a big ole anger knot in my stomach it does...


Posts: 5996 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 8:47 PM, December 20th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Welcome out of lurkdom, GRM. You are wise to balance the fight with the potential reward. I understand the frustration of knowing you don't have a "good fight." There are times when I ACHE for consequences to come for him!!!

I hope you DD gets the help she needs and that she recognizes your swift action and the depth of care in that.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5289 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

((((((GRM)))))))

Welcome to The Tribe.

You've done well by your DD, she likes her therapist-that's 90% of the battle getting kids help. She'll do well because you've given her this safe place to talk.

Mr-I'll-get-DD-my-own-in-network-therapist has a lot to learn about dealing with teenagers! Trying to get a kid to do what you want them to do -when they don't want to do it is near impossible. If it gets done-it's halfassed and with attitude-and usually that attitude is directed at them having more control in the situation. He can try to dictate the situation. But your DD ultimately has control. And his is out of the spotlight or in it in a negative light.

Hopefully he decides it's too much work to change her therapist. If he pursues the change he looses in more ways than his pocket will gain.

Hugs, there is a special place for those that use the children as tools of torture.

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4002 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Free2012
♀ Member
Member # 34070
Default  Posted: 8:24 PM, December 21st (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It's been quite some time since I posted here last....

After the divorce I tried my best to get my children and myself through all difficulties ...

Now most of it has calmed down a bit as my ExNPDWH actually married OW (May) and chose not to tell anyone.
My son was offended by this -mainly because his father didn't tell him . It helped him detach and although both kids still want to see their dad I sense that their ability to set boundaries is growing and that they will be ok.

I was relieved to learn about the marriage . I'm not responsible ever again for him . Still strange though nobody knows including her family they got married...

I have a question to all the "old wise guys" here:
When you started dating again, did you also have difficulties?
I met a wonderful person, reliable, nonNPD, caring... Kids love him... but I seem to have problems to really commit.

Part of it I think is because I compare him to KISA NPD first idealising phase ( and who wouldn't fall short against that...)

What's your advice?


There is no way out but through

Divorced

BS: me 41 yrs
WH: him 67 yrs , married OW (39yrs) 5/13
2 kids aged 7 and 9
married for 12 years
D-Day 16.10.10
Divorced, final 03/12


Posts: 52 | Registered: Nov 2011
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