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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: N P D Thread - Part 12
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 11:08 PM, July 27th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

We know they mirror emotions, wouldn't those emotions light up the same receptors in their brains as a normal person?

Caregiver, my XH is in emergency mgt. He (and NW/OW) work disasters. Think MASH unit at a disaster. His job is to decide who gets help and in what order. It feeds his God complex. In some (horrifying) situations (hurricanes) he gets to choose who lives and who dies. Does he feel? No,

Can he mirror? Oh yes, he should earn an academy award for his portrayal of emotions.

I wonder if their performance also fools their brain? Their brain believes the lies they tell, say it enough it becomes truth. Why no the same for emotions?

Hugs,

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4031 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 1:22 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Make no mistake. NPD's and even psychopaths have emotions. They have most all the same emotions we do. Even though most of their emotions are mostly self serving, they still experience emotion.

The thing they lack is empathy. Empathy is the ability to "put the shoe on the other foot" so to say. Empathy means understanding how your words or actions can hurt someone because the same words or actions would hurt you.

NPD's do NOT have this. If you pose a hypothetical empathetic situation to an NPD, you will get a BLANK COLD STARE in return. They don't get it. They CAN'T get it. You can't "teach" empathy. You either have it, or you don't.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
HURTAGAIN1981
♀ Member
Member # 35178
Default  Posted: 8:41 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

What is interesting in the study to me, is that the study showed that that the "propensity" for empathy is proven to be less, but the ability under direct instruction to feel empathy is possible.

I honestly cannot decide if this is a good thing or scary as hell! The ability to turn on empathy, but to default to lack of empathy, I think could make the mind fuck worse. Could make the temporary remorse very temporary but all the harder to walk away from. Doesn't that offer false hope to someone who has fallen for a N?

Of course, the flip side is that if empathy can be taught then there is potential for treatment?? Of course the article says "no idea" how this would be accomplished.

This is very scary, but I am not sure I agree with what they are saying. I think that maybe they could be 'told' to think of the feelings that others might be feeling when putting themselves in the shoes of others, but I don't think that they would really 'feel' those feelings if that makes sense. They can possibly imagine and I think that is all they are capable of, if that. I think for them to have empathy, they have to care about others. So while they might be able to acknowledge how another is feeling, they wouldn't really care anyway.

They can fake it I think. This is what has a lot of us confused. They can show sadness and show they are upset when we are, maybe using the right words, but it never feels right to us. It didn't to me anyway. Something was always missing. I could sense the lack of feeling there.

As for making a conscious effort to feel every day, that would be like us making a conscious effort not to feel every day. It's not natural to us not to feel, and it isn't natural to them to feel.

[This message edited by HURTAGAIN1981 at 8:54 AM, July 28th (Sunday)]


Posts: 296 | Registered: Mar 2012
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 10:38 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

They can fake it I think. This is what has a lot of us confused. They can show sadness and show they are upset when we are, maybe using the right words, but it never feels right to us. It didn't to me anyway. Something was always missing. I could sense the lack of feeling there.

EXACTLY.

And here lies that little nagging "something" we have all noticed in our relationships with our N's. That "something wasn't right, but I couldn't put my finger on it" thing. This is it.

I think N's know about empathy and that they're suppose to have it. I think they realize they don't have it. I think they recognize it when they see it in others. They try to "mirror" empathy and copy it from others. But it usually falls flat because the situation and or the words don't quite add up to genuine empathy. They can sometimes come close, but it's never quite right.

You all know what I mean.

[This message edited by sadtoo at 10:40 AM, July 28th (Sunday)]


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Empathy is the ability to "put the shoe on the other foot"

I agree with those who are not buying this study. When my XN was angry, he would often accidentally (?) tell the truth. I clearly remember the day, toward the end of our M, we were fighting about his affair(s) and I said, "Put yourself in my shoes..." and he cut me off with a razor sharp "I don't WANT to put myself in your shoes!" To me, that said it all. He did not want to feel or even understand what I was feeling. He did not want to have any negative feelings about what he did to me at all; he wanted to feel good about it. Putting himself in my shoes, understanding what he did to me, would have taken away from the "glorious" feelings about his cheating and lying.

They don't WANT to care! It makes them feel bad, and that's the one thing they're avoiding so assiduously. None of us WANT to feel bad, but it's part of life. They spend so much time loathing who they are, they don't want to feel for anyone else.

I also agree that feigning the emotion would probably light up the appropriate part of the brain. How the heck would the people behind the machine know if the N was faking or not? I don't think they can. All those machines are pretty fancy, but I just don't believe that they really show us the heart of a person.

There are paintings, beautiful paintings, all over the world. But they aren't the actual people or places depicted.

I don't think I've had enough coffee to articulate this morning. But this "study" annoys and scares me, too. After all, we're the ones living the nightmare, not those idiots running the machines who think they can read someone's soul.


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 12:05 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've read some pretty interesting stuff about these fMRI's. "The Optimism Bias" was interesting...

It just got to me - & to the 5 posters above
THANK YOU!

Cleared it up for me this morning a bit...


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 12:26 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Finding a sub group to have this discussion with was my benefit!!

I am pondering if faking it would light up the brain. We know they can fool a polygraph. Why not a brain scan as well?

Damn, if this won't feed right into their belief that they are "special."

Since the study just published yesterday, I wonder how many others with N experience are having this conversation?

SoHurt,
What you say about "not wanting" to empathize rings very true to me. Even IF they could flip the switch, the motivation for them to do so is just not there.

I so appreciate the perspectives and the place to come to have this discussion!!

(((tribe)))


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 1:01 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I am pondering if faking it would light up the brain. We know they can fool a polygraph. Why not a brain scan as well?

SoHurt,
What you say about "not wanting" to empathize rings very true to me. Even IF they could flip the switch, the motivation for them to do so is just not there.

EXACTLY, CG! I believe that machines are just a way to believe we can KNOW something that's unknowable: how a person really FEELS. I don't think that basically equating a normal brain with a N brain is smart science. I think it's a panacea for the lack of understanding of how people really operate.

If they felt what we do, and chose to still act the way they do, what does that say? That they truly are monsters, if you ask me. I could not put myself in the shoes of someone I destroyed, and not feel horrible about it, let alone do it again. I just couldn't. I'm willing to bet none of us could. But Ns just keep on destroying, person after person. They are the Bundys and Dahmers who keep killing and feeding off the pain they cause, feeling they have the right to do whatever they want to.

For me, this study is truly frightening. People are going to think a N is capable of being cured. So they will "teach" them to mimic normals, thereby creating even more devious Ns. I think that's a fantastic idea! Why not teach the next Dahmer how to keep his crimes a secret while he doubles or triples his body count?

Yeah, I think it's a great idea.


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for clearing up empathy and feelings.


For me, this study is truly frightening. People are going to think a N is capable of being cured. So they will "teach" them to mimic normals, thereby creating even more devious Ns. I think that's a fantastic idea! Why not teach the next Dahmer how to keep his crimes a secret while he doubles or triples his body count?

Yeah, I think it's a great idea. [\quote]
^^^^This

How does science differentiate someone's empathetic response from a conditioned response? The brainwaves during both responses will most likely be the same, the motivation is different.

This makes my head hurt.

Hugs,

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4031 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 1:35 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for clearing up empathy and feelings.


For me, this study is truly frightening. People are going to think a N is capable of being cured. So they will "teach" them to mimic normals, thereby creating even more devious Ns. I think that's a fantastic idea! Why not teach the next Dahmer how to keep his crimes a secret while he doubles or triples his body count?

Yeah, I think it's a great idea.


^^^^This

How does science differentiate someone's empathetic response from a conditioned response? The brainwaves during both responses will most likely be the same, the motivation is different.

This makes my head hurt.

Hugs,

K


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4031 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 1:49 PM, July 28th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How does science differentiate someone's empathetic response from a conditioned response? The brainwaves during both responses will most likely be the same, the motivation is different.

This makes my head hurt.

Mine, too, Kajem. Mine, too.

I thought of an analogy or two that fit, I think. Doctors say that you feel nothing during surgery, because you are out like a light. The problem is, people wake up during surgery, and are in excruciating pain. Not remembering the pain or respond to it and not feeling it are two very different things. Pavlov knew he could train dogs to salivate. That's not the same thing as actually knowing the dog is hungry.

So it is with Ns and this new "study." They can't really know, because they aren't IN the person, feeling what they feel. They can only guess, with the "help" of machines that also cannot feel what the subject feels.

A painting isn't reality.

[This message edited by SoHurt at 1:51 PM, July 28th (Sunday)]


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
Kajem
♀ Member
Member # 36134
Default  Posted: 4:28 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can't get away from the fact that this gives the psychopath one more scientific tool to utilize/hone their skills at being above the law. Uggh


I trust you is a better compliment than I love you, because you may not trust the person you love, but you can always love the person you trust. - Unknown
Relationships are like sharing a book, it doesn't work if you're not on the same page.

Posts: 4031 | Registered: Jul 2012 | From: Florida
jjct
♂ Member
Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:33 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

It bugged me to babble on the last page too, but you know what?
What have we done here?
Survived.
With finely-tuned radar.
With an awesome assortment of personal skillz.
Stuff. We got stuff.

The way I'm going to play this - is turn it around.
Simple questions.

"Have you ever had an fMRI, or has anyone ever held an electromagnet to your head?"

If the answer is yes,
my answer will be
"Next!"
"You're outta here!"
I'm good.


Posts: 6021 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
CharlieFoxtrot
♀ Member
Member # 38010
Default  Posted: 7:13 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Personally, I find the use of a machine of any kind to detect or gauge emotion to be somewhat ironic... Something that has never experienced empathy or emotion "setting the bar" for experiencing it?? Sounds like the last half of my marriage...

In all seriousness, X "the king" was daft at expressing emotion. He could see what I was experiencing and then perform a dramatic mirror-enhancement of it to prove that he was *more* sad-hurt-traumatized-whatever than I was. He used me as a guideline for societally acceptable emotion and put on a dramatic show for his lack thereof. It was mind numbing to live with, he has fooled many a smart woman, several good men, countless psychologists, and one damn good psychiatrist, to name a few. I'm certain he could pass a lie detector test and I'm certain he could manipulate a machine. None of that minces what I experienced and what I *know* about him. He is pure evil in human form. Run. And don't look back.


Weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.

Posts: 505 | Registered: Jan 2013
honesttoafault
♀ Member
Member # 27105
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I agree that NPD's can mirror emotions. Also, there is a spectrum of how much a person is "NPD"....whether they are "full blown" or have A LOT of the traits.

That's where my trouble would come with my WH.

I came to realize that he SEEMED to be able to be sympathetic or even empathetic for people who might have had a loss or sickness, BUT if HE was the one whose actions caused the pain to someone, then he could NOT empathize. He could NOT take the responsibility that he did something wrong to cause the pain. He blameshifted, or seemed to even turn off his feelings. He appeared justified in his actions.

I think that's why I got sucked in all those years. He could listen to a problem I had with work or whatever and really seemed to be listening and give me some logical answer, or even what felt like some sympathy/empathy....

"I don't WANT to put myself in your shoes!"

SoHurt: What a Freudian slip!!! But, unfortunately I believe it is sooooo true. They don't want to feel the pain that they caused. It could be a combo of plain selfishness and a defense mechanism to protect themselves.


Posts: 1903 | Registered: Jan 2010
SoHurt
♀ Member
Member # 1210
Default  Posted: 9:51 AM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

"Have you ever had an fMRI, or has anyone ever held an electromagnet to your head?"

If the answer is yes,
my answer will be
"Next!"
"You're outta here!"

jj, you are right, and just too funny! That's a great opening question, and I love it!

Honest, you nailed it. I don't think he wanted to admit he avoids feeling the pain of what he does. I also think he would have taken it back if he could have. I think, too, that it's part of why he rewrote history so often. Then he could take things back and call me a liar to boot.

What a tangled web.


"My feet are finally beginning to heal after 25 years of walking on eggshells."
"I walk barefoot all the time, now!"
~Me, SoHurt, in HIS NPD TAIL HURTS CUZ I KICKED IT~

DIVORCED!! =D


Posts: 463 | Registered: Mar 2003 | From: I am "Somewhere else." Next destination?
sadtoo
♀ Member
Member # 2027
Default  Posted: 12:58 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The researchers add that although the psychopaths are not using this mirror system spontaneously, they can use it when asked to.

No shit.

If they didn't use it when they needed to, they would never appear normal in order to hook a victim in the first place.


It is what it is, not what we hope it can be.

When another woman takes your husband,
sometimes the best thing you can do for
yourself is to LET HER HAVE the worthless
bum.
OC born 2001
Divorced 2003
Remarried 2008 (New Guy)


Posts: 7927 | Registered: Aug 2003 | From: Iowa
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 5:55 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Pavlov knew he could train dogs to salivate. That's not the same thing as actually knowing the dog is hungry.

This is brilliant! My learning style is definitely analogy based. SoHurt, thank you for a true light bulb moment.

Personally, I find the use of a machine of any kind to detect or gauge emotion to be somewhat ironic... Something that has never experienced empathy or emotion "setting the bar" for experiencing it?? Sounds like the last half of my marriage...

Damn that is FUNNY!!

This conversation reminds me of previous observations made of the tribe: the collective wisdom here is great. Add to the wisdom the generosity and caring and I will highlight once again that this TRIBE ROCKS!

I did have a "silver lining" thought- perhaps the study suggesting that empathy COULD be turned on could eliminate any "not guilty by reason of insanity."

eta: to add the word "me" to a sentence. I have left myself out of too much in my life to allow it now as a typo...

[This message edited by caregiver9000 at 5:57 PM, July 29th (Monday)]


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
loveisareddress
♀ Member
Member # 36474
Default  Posted: 6:02 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

In short, there is literally nothing to talk about - unless you want to expose yourself. NPD's are capable of turning a bottle top and a fork on the wrong side of the sink into a raging episode.

I have trouble sometimes with "Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing."

Seems like all I do is hide thoughts, feelings, browser history, reading matter because of the reality of living with someone like that.

I used to feel really guilty about it.

Not so much anymore.


Scorched earth-Like Peter the Great, he burns up his own territory in order to gain the upper hand while his own people suffer.

I don't need you to be happy. I just need you to leave me alone when I am.


Posts: 437 | Registered: Aug 2012
caregiver9000
♀ Member
Member # 28622
Default  Posted: 6:12 PM, July 29th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think there is a difference between hiding something because you shouldn't be doing it, and walking on eggshells because the reaction of someone else is unpredictable in the face of normal browser history, thoughts and feelings.

I see where this could be a source of guilt but truly, what I feel and what I think? Yea, I have to own those. My thoughts and feelings don't cause other people pain. It is the actions based on thoughts and feelings that cause injury to others.


Me: 43, independent, happy, despite co-parenting with a lower muppet
FT "Stretch" (and Skew!) ;)
DS 12 DS 9
S 5/2010
D 12/2012

Posts: 5307 | Registered: May 2010 | From: a better place
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