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Ok so here's where I'm at. The OW is someone the WS works with. She happens to be leaving the job in a couple of weeks. He says he will deal with this then but I'm calling Bull. The fact is he could let her know he can't talk to her anymore cause he is working things out with his wife but I think he likes that she swoons over him so he lets her linger. I've read there messages and he is responding with short responses to her page long texts but he is leading her to believes friendship bet them is possible which I am obvi NOT cool with. I let him know that until he decides to completely cut communication I am done. I have been distant yet not hostile pretty much following the 180 and its given me a lot of peace. Yesterday he basically followed me around like a puppy wanting to hang out and talk like we used to. I gave in a little but was very firm about where I stood. The he sends me this email below at 2:45 AM! Eek! I have written and deleted a couple of emails! Anyone have any thoughts?

Thanks in advance!

So I have to ask you this I am emailing b/c u are sleeping

I am not someone who would want to have a relationship outside if a marriage. What in your opinion do you think led me to that? Other than you think I am a disgusting person.

& you think that based on my actions & more so my thoughts by reading my journal. You had the opportunity to actually see part of what I was thinking which most pple don't see or ever know about other pple. & I can say most pple's thoughts & their unconscious Is never what they present to others. You would have a very different view if you knew what everyone else was thinking or really believed.

Anyways I would like to hear your thoughts on my question above.

PS: I am starting to feel that you are beginning to hate me.

[This message edited by Chloe1997 at 5:46 PM, July 22nd (Monday)]

It sounds like he is trying to get you to say why he had affair. Um...that is what he should be telling you...the why. It also sounds like he is trying to say that there were reasons that you would know about...like maybe blaming YOU?

It sounds like there are still three people in your marriage...so no reconciliation is going on...of course you hate him for that...are you supposed to like him now? When he still is in contact with OW? When you don't know who he really is?

I think the 180 says not to talk UNLESS he initiates, so when he does initiate you should talk, but in a 180 way if you know what I mean. Kind of removed and distant. But still truthful and yourself, just in control.

So...do not give him reasons you think of why he would have affair. You want reasons to come from him and not just be him using the reasons you come up with. Sounds like he is feeling sorry for himself. Where in his email does he ask about you and what you are feeling and going through? He talks around the issue but gives you no information or feeling or insight or concern for you.

I would ljust

I would just write back...Instead of making me guess as to the the reasons you may have done this why don't you just tell me?

I let him know that until he decides to completely cut communication I am done.

This is the issue. I would keep my focus on NC.

I would respond with something along the lines of, I am committed to working on our marriage and discussing all number of topics and questions relating to the affair. However, until NC is established, I will not be able to do so.

I am not someone who would want to have a relationship outside if a marriage. What in your opinion do you think led me to that?

As an aside, as someone who's H told me that the reason for his affair was my weight, I am wondering if he is leading you to this conclusion?

Did reading his journal make you 'understand' him better and see what 'led' him t be a cheater?

Translation: You are focusing on you and I don't like it. Maybe if we focus on why I did this you can come up with an answer for me that you will accept and then I won't have to do any real work. Oh, and by the way, everyone else is just like me. You just don't know it because you can't read their journals so I believe you're the one with a problem. The rest of us are doing what everyone does.

P.S. Are you sufficiently distracted from the fact that I have no intentions of going NC? If not, I'll send another text.

Tearsoflove nailed it.

And I would not respond to his drivel. I'd do a hard 180, and watch to see whether he steps up to the plate.

I'm really sorry. (As an aside, I have a very cute calico cat named Chloe, so your name makes me smile.)

Whenever i post on this site the responses never cease to help in some way. You actually make me smile in the face of this absurdity that has become my life.

Also redrock, that is some pretty impressive reading bet the lines. My weight is a big issue for the WS. It's somewhat obnoxious in that I was never a small girl so even though I have fluctuated its hardly an excuse like this is not the person he married.

Thanks again everyone

Sounds like he is having a pity party. Let him, he earned it.

Update! Tonight he wanted to talk. I told him I couldn't give him the reasons why and he would have to come up with them on his own. He basically just wanted to engage in convo. He invited me to a therapy session and said his therapist mentioned a trial separation and he wanted to know what I thought but clarified that it wasn't that he was thinking of it or saying he was going to do it just wanted to know what I thought. I said if that's what he wanted fine. He kept trying to pull more from me and eventually we ended up back at the NC convo. He said she still texts but he doesn't respond really. I let him know that I wasn't interested in talking next steps until he ended communication with her. He countered that he felt like I was giving him an ultimatum and I let him know that I was simply standing up for myself and he couldn't have me and the A regardless of the extent of their interaction. In the end I told him it was best if he left the bedroom. I don't know if this was technically the "right" thing to do like if it is part of 180 but it sure as felt good! I feel sexier and more empowered than I have for so long. I know I will have tough nights ahead but better to sleep by myself than next to this man.

((Chloe))

Proud of you for standing up for not accepting his drivel and being true to yourself.

Apart from the fact that you are much younger than me, you could be in my situation four years ago. He dumped OW, but refused to send her a NC text and she continued to contact him. He never re-engaged with me, kept saying 'I can't talk to you' and looking desperate. At Christmas he did 'talk' to me, to tell me that I'd put on so much weight that 'he found me unappealing'. He had been seeing her secretly for most of that time. He's still with her today and we're divorcing. I have never felt lower or more disgusting than when he said that to me yet today I feel beautiful. I just want you to know that this behaviour towards you is NOT acceptable in any way. He's talking about a 'trial separation'? That's a big red flag.. I would take the decision for him, tell him you don't want to see him. Read some of my posts if you want to see more. I'm happy - no thinner, would still like to be - but I've moved way beyond him and his 'very unappealing' verbal abuse.

Thanks you guys. It's so hard because he keeps wanting to hang out with me but whenever NC comes up he says he doesnt like being given an ultimatum or being coerced. I told him he has a choice but he can't have both of us even if it is just a "friendship" with her. Even explained that every time he let her text and call without putting a stop to it he was further decaying our marriage and humiliating me but he honestly just doesn't seem to care and gives me bull about he's working on himself as if the two have anything to do with one another. Anyway I really appreciate the support because it would be so much easier to just cuddle on the couch and ignore that this is my life. But I know I have to have some self respect for me and as an example for my daughter. Thanks again loves it means the world to hear from you all!

In the end I told him it was best if he left the bedroom. I don't know if this was technically the "right" thing to do like if it is part of 180 but it sure as felt good! I feel sexier and more empowered than I have for so long. I know I will have tough nights ahead but better to sleep by myself than next to this man.

Go, Chloe! Self-respect is damn sexy and your daughter is lucky to have a mom who will model it for her.

Your WH is not being coerced. He is absolutely free to continue a relationship with OW. If that's what he chooses, the simple and fair consequence is that he loses his marriage.

Keep up the 180 and keep him out of your bedroom. Otherwise he will try to twist you into knots of confusion. Detach so you can keep thinking clearly and kicking ass in school and as a mom!

I think that you're playing with fire here.

You are giving him exactly what he wants --> To not go NC until she leaves the job. And he just keeps skipping merrily along while dragging you through the mud behind him.

You say NC or 'no relationship'. He throws a mantrum and continues contact. Repeat cycle.

He needs to know that you mean business.....and kicking him out of your bed is a good first step. Any blow-back from him for doing that?

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 3:09 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]

he says he doesnt like being given an ultimatum or being coerced.

Your WH is not being coerced. He is absolutely free to continue a relationship with OW. If that's what he chooses, the simple and fair consequence is that he loses his marriage.

Exactly. What he doesn't like is that there are consequences for his choices. He is entirely free to choose to rebuild his relationship with you or to refuse. At the moment, he is refusing. But he doesn't want to the consequence to be that you will then detach from him.

I diagnose extreme selfishness, for which the prescription is: "Grow up!"

Gonnabe I totally agree with you.i don't believe he has any intention of ever telling her to stop contacting him because frankly he likes the attention. I have seen her texts and she basically begs him to stay her friend. Obviously this can't work if he wants to R. He wants me to come to his therapy appointment on Monday which I already agreed to but before we even begin talking about our marriage I need his therapist to know I don't see the point unless he stops his affair. Also he claims this doc told him we shouldn't look through each other's phones and this was an inappropriate abuse of boundaries. I'm calling bull on that as well.

Sorry I digress! To answer your question, the reaction from being kicked out of the room and me not wanting to hang out with him is mostly just sad puppy face and moping. I found him on the couch this morning looking a hot mess and just merrily skipped on by refreshed from a good nights sleep :)

Lyoness- yes you have no idea re selfishness. The 180 has really given me so much clarity on who this person I thought I loved with all my heart truly is. With some distance I'm not sure i even care to reconcile with this person I am learning he actually is.

Chloe, I am so impressed with your strength so early in this nightmare of infidelity. You are doing everything EXACTLY right. He is still in the fog, wants you to take part of the blame for the affair, and wants to act like an affair really isn't a big deal.

He is not acknowledging your pain, his counselor is enabling him if telling him about the phones is true, so your only choice is the hard 180 that you have been doing.

It was exactly right to tell him to leave the room.

That "ultimatum" business is a whole lot of BS.

You have every right to DEMAND NC, and if he wants to view it as an ultimatum, sobeit.

I would make an appt with an attorney and make sure he knows that you have. Maybe leave the attorney's card laying around, or a note with his name and number by the phone.

So sorry you are going through this, but you are not alone, we all know your pain and how much you just want to love him, but you are doing the only thing that will save your marriage at this point, if it is to be saved. Hugs and love. K

Don't believe his IC is saying this things. But if he/she is, well they don't get to tell you how you feel or what you need to heal. This isn't a committee vote, those two against you. Not in the real world.

Stand your ground, don't agree to anything, or any compromise that you don't honestly feel is in your best interests.

You do get to see his phone, he lost the right to privacy when he stepped over the line. If he wants a trial separate (and tried to pass it off as his IC's suggesion) he has to make that decision and it is on him. He doesn't get a "break" so he can feel good about seeing if it will work out with OW while keeping you in limboland. Not happening, all in or all out.

[This message edited by momentintime at 6:22 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]

(((Chloe1997)))

Don't be intimidated by the IC. If she thinks he is owed privacy after breaking his marriage vows then she isn't worth wasting your time and common sense arguing with. She is a complete dumbass.

As others have said, he lost privacy when he used it to maintain secrecy with his affair partner. His choice. What kind of nutcase would trust him right now? There are consequences to being a liar and cheat.

He can either comply with NC and transparency or not. He gets to make another choice. Not take a vacation from that choice while he cake eats till OW moves on.

Trust is earned back through verification that the stuff coming out of his mouth is true. Over and over again. It takes effort and time. No way around it. He wants the shortcut and trust right now. He thinks the IC can get it for him....

You do not have to live in a marriage where trust is demanded immediately after a betrayal instead of earned back with actions instead of words.

People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

And any IC that tells you that you have to make a 'choice' to trust a liar this early in the game is not trained well enough to be of help to you.

Hang in there.

[This message edited by redrock at 9:36 PM, July 25th (Thursday)]