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User Topic: WH drafted a post-nup
Eudaimonia
♀ Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 11:45 AM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How effective are these things? Do they even count, legally?

Do any of you have post-nups or are any of you considering one? If so, what is the standard for one?


Basically he has:
-Reason for: briefly states the need for a post nup

-Intentions on division of property: any and all assets to me and our children. Any debt goes to him in full.

-Parental Visitation: I (ToG) has full say over conditions of visitations. Mr. ToG wil not be able to leave state his children live, but ToG is free to take children anywhere (not sure I understand this one). He noted that he would be waiving all visitation rights.

Child Support/Alimony: Despite ultimately decision made by court of law, he agrees to

assist ToG in any way to regain financial footing through additional education as ToG has been unable to work while raising the children. Financial assistance for children including insurance till 18...

Mutual Release:
If any of the following circumstances are met, the post nuptial goes into effect:
-Mr. ToG uses pornography in any form (print, internet, etc.) without ToG's knowledge and/or consent.
-Mr. ToG contacts any person that is not a "friend of the marriage." (in secrecy, including people from his past without making ToG aware)
-Mr. ToG is contacted by a person that is a threat to the marriage and does not disclose said contact to ToG
-Mr. ToG visits via internet, any dating, singles, or "hook-up" sites
-Mr. ToG uses any email addresses not known by ToG
-Mr. ToG has any secret contact with his (toxic) family of origin that is not disclosed to ToG in a timely fashion. (timeframe needs to be defined)
-Mr. ToG has any inappropriate interactions with a male or female, be it secret/hidden friendships, sexual infidelity, etc
-Mr. ToG commits any form of infidelity, be it physical or virtual
-Mr. ToG harms ToG physically in any way

In the event of any of these conditions happening, Mr. ToG agrees for a no-contest divorce, with the aforementioned conditions.


Is anything missing? Should there be better clarification on these? Again, I'm not even sure something like this will hold up in court. If he starts acting out again, I highly doubt he would abide by any of this so it probably doesn't matter anyway....

Thoughts?


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
sisoon
♂ Member
Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 11:49 AM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If your H violates the agreement, he's almost certain to contest it. If you want this - and I think it's a GREAT idea - see a lawyer to make sure you're protected. Please.


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10075 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
circlingthedrain
♂ Member
Member # 25733
Default  Posted: 12:00 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

See a lawyer for review, but I would think a clause in it that says your WH drafted it would help if he later tried to contest it.


BH (me), 53
FWW (Her) 55
DD18, DS15
D-Day 12/23/2007
R going well

Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then --- Bob Seger


Posts: 326 | Registered: Oct 2009 | From: East Coast
Gingerly
♀ New Member
Member # 38693
Default  Posted: 12:46 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would consider having him help with financial assistance with the children including insurance until they are out of school through college. Expenses don't stop when they turn 18.

Posts: 3 | Registered: Mar 2013
mysticpenguin
♀ Member
Member # 38839
Default  Posted: 12:51 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

As my husband has substantial financial assets, we wanted to get a post-nup stating I would not touch said assets in the event of a divorce.

I did some research and found that most post-nups are not worth the paper they're printed on because they can be contested and are often disregarded in court. Your WH could easily say that the provisions (awarding you everything and him nothing) are so extreme that he was "obviously" made to agree to them under duress. (I know this is not the case and you have every right to want absolute security.)

Additionally there are "holes" -- he views porn without your knowledge. What proof do you have that he didn't ask for the OK? How do you prove *he* was the one who viewed it if he's not the only one with access to the computer? Etc etc.

I hate to bring this type of thing up but it makes me uneasy to see people lures into a false sense of security by a postnup that would be difficult to hold up in court.

As an alternative, how about he puts your name on all assets -- all savings accounts, titles to all vehicles, etc. You could also open a savings account in just your name and have him take half of the money in your joint/his existing savings account and deposit it there. Open a credit card in your name only (list his income as the household income at your disposal when applying) to establish your own credit. Those types of steps will help you create real financial security just in case.


Betrayed

Posts: 306 | Registered: Mar 2013
m334455
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Member # 26893
Default  Posted: 1:34 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

If you want a real post-nup see a lawyer. That one isn't worth the paper it's written on. Post-nups might not be enforceable in your state, and even if they are they can't be wildy inequitable or contracted under duress -- and provisions as to child custody and visitation are pointless as they are always open to modifcation.

I wonder if he'll go for a *real* post-nup.


BW 38, 5 kids
Dday Dec. 2009

Posts: 4034 | Registered: Dec 2009
Opheliapain
♀ Member
Member # 33596
Default  Posted: 3:52 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have a post nup.

Some items in mine include:

1. 1/2 of all annual bonuses and or commissions for the term of my natural life and 1/3 of his base pay on top of child support.

2. He pays each girl an annual clothing allowance of $500 each August

3. Half of all extra curricular activities

4. He insures the girls

5. I am to be the bennificary of all insurance policies for the remainder of my life.

6. (Please note he is set to inherit some money - not a ton but a good amount)
His girls are to be his estates bennificaries up to the amount of his inheritance if he has other bennificaries in his will. (meaning an OW can not reap his families money if he dies that it has to go to our daughters)

7. He pays for college tuition for 4 years for both daughters.

8. He pays 100% for a weekly therapist for daughters for one full year.

These terms are void if I have an affair that ends our marriage but other than that I have it stated explicitly that this is good for any reason he or I file for divorce. That way it won't matter to him to hide another affair from me because it won't change his divorce decree.


Me - BW 38
Him - WH 33
Don't fuck with me fellas! This ain't my first time at the rodeo!
DD - 3/28/11

Posts: 177 | Registered: Oct 2011 | From: Indiana
DoneWithLove
♀ Member
Member # 39380
Default  Posted: 7:15 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I would say get a lawyer to advise your postnup and legalized/ notarized it. It will be uncontestable if you cover every legal inch... And a little research never hurts. My H wrote up a miniature postnup that I will definitely be revising to my satisfaction and fully legalizing. Though I cannot make the OW pay the consiquences for her actions without throwing my H under the bus but I'll be damned if I dont get reimbursed for my contribution and years spent faithfully comitted to my husband. You already have the upper hand, just be smart about it and keep your nose clean. Good luck


BW: Me (24)
FWH: Him (24) Jlaz1988ws
Together 11/12/06
2 sons, ages 5 and 1
Married 9/29/12
EA turned PA with OW/ coworker for 2- 4 weeks
D day 4/20/13
TT 4/20/13 - 7/30/13
"R" 5/3/13

Posts: 191 | Registered: May 2013 | From: The mitten state
Eudaimonia
♀ Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 11:12 PM, July 11th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you so much, you guys. This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.

I guess postnups are valid in my state. Found this:

State we live in courts have held that married couples are free to determine at any time what the status of their property is to be. There is no specific statute that authorizes or creates the rights of married couples to alter their property rights by postnuptial agreement. However, the right is supported by case law.

In order to uphold a postnuptial agreement a spouse must show by clear and convincing evidence that:
The transaction was free from any taint of fraud, coercion or undue influence
The opposing party acted with full knowledge of all the properties involved and all legal rights therein; and
The settlement was fair and equitable

Interesting.

But, what most of you said was actually what makes me so skeptical. On the one hand, if he's acting out, he's going to make up all kinds of ways to say he didn't write it or didn't "actually" break the contract, etc. He's a master liar and manipulator. On the other hand, when he gave me this he said it was just a basis for a prenup and that he wanted to take it to a lawyer asap to put it all in order....there is that.

Mysticpenguin, your idea of putting it all in my name now. He did give me the title to the car, so that's a start. But really, why not just do it now? Frankly, if it does come down to it, if he does break any one of the circumstances he listed, taking his "assets" will be the last of my concerns. The only thing that will concern me at the end of the day will be my children's safety and from what I hear, judges don't give a flying frak what kind of monstrosities that sex addicts inflict on their children. They get visitation anyway.



I wonder if he'll go for a *real* post-nup.

As do I, m334455. As do I.

Opheliapain,
I will surely be adding probably all of your list to our postnup. Good thinking! Thank you so much for sharing.

I'll do some more research, too. Again, the safety of my kids is paramount.


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
gonnabe2016
♀ Member
Member # 34823
Default  Posted: 1:51 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

The settlement was fair and equitable

^^This will most likely make the post-nup unenforceable because legally, it is not 'fair or equitable' for you to assume all the assets and him to assume all the debt.

I imagine that a post-nup that is signed in the wake of infidelity could very easily be argued as being entered into under duress.....so shake your tail to a lawyer and get some advice on this.

A lot of Ophelia's stuff is good because a lot of the items in her post-nup are basically 'negotiable' items. But marital property and child support laws in the states are typically pretty cut and dried. And you most definitely want to consult a lawyer before you try to contract 'around' them.

And FYI--switching assets into your name if you live in a community property state is an effort in futility and a waste of transfer fees (although I suppose it could depend on how strong your argument is and how the judge feels the day he makes his decision....)

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 9:31 AM, July 12th (Friday)]


"Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive." - Sir Walter Scott

In my effort to be *concise*, I often come off as blunt and harsh. Sorry, don't mean to be offensive.


Posts: 8005 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: Midwest
Dare2Trust
♀ Member
Member # 21183
Default  Posted: 2:10 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

TruthorGoodbye,

You need an ATTORNEY to draw up your Post Nup Agreement; and it must be filed in a Court of Law.

There's NO WAY a "COURT" is going to monitor your WH's behaviors - to determine if he has or has not broken these "VAGUE" requirements written out in this so-call-post-nup you have posted.

Legal Post Nup Agreements are written to protect parties' Property, Financial, and Custody Rights.....not to monitor their sexual and deviate behaviors; or extended family relationships. That's that the "job" of the Court.

Some States don't even honor Post Nup Agreements: So, it depends on where you live; if an Attorney will even draw up such a legal document for you.

You stateed you didn't understand this:

Mr. ToG wil not be able to leave state his children live, but ToG is free to take children anywhere (not sure I understand this one).

Standard Custody Agreements do regulate when/if The Custodial Parent can move the children out of the Court's Jurisdiction - without the Court and the Non-Custodial Parent's Permission.
SO - your WH can't not simply make this decision on his own. These type decisions are regulated by the Family Court Judge who oversees the Divorce.

I'm not sure why your WH states "there is a need for a Post Nup." Rarely do couples who are reconciling go through the complicated legal process, and expense of securing a Post Nup.

In my case: My WH suffered a stroke, the day before he was scheduled to move out of our home and give me a divorce - due to his adulterous behaviors.
I made the decision to remain in the marriage and take care of him during this dire medical recovery period:
BUT - I demanded a POST NUP to protect myself legally and finacially....since this was in my best interests.

Luckily -my husband made a full recovery; and we continue to work towards reconciliation. BUT, my POST NUP remains in force.

TALK TO AN ATTORNEY...this self-written POST NUP is not enforceable, in my opinion.

[This message edited by Dare2Trust at 2:17 AM, July 12th (Friday)]


Me BS 59
WH 58
Married 19 years
D-Day Nov 3, 2005
Child: Adopted Daughter 21 College Student now

I can understand being alone; but I hate being with someone and feeling lonely.


Posts: 6121 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: Texas
Eudaimonia
♀ Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 10:24 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Excellent feedback, once again thank you.

gonnabe,

it is not 'fair or equitable' for you to assume all the assets and him to assume all the debt.

Agreed. I see this as a manipulative tactic that he has been very successful at throughout his entire life as learned by his family. It's one more attempt to make me look like the unreasonable controlling wife who is victimizing him. I'd love to think that he's just "showing that he's really changed and that if he ever does any of this stuff again he owes it to us anyway"-his words not mine....
....but after years of empirical evidence I know how this person operates now. For example, one of the conditions for him to move back into our household was a polygraph. He immediately-immediately-made a search for "how to beat a polygraph" (thank you google history).

Again, he wants to see an attorney to write the actual document. I'm not sure if it matters, but it would be "his" attorney. It will always be "his" attorney, through "his" employer. That's another thing that makes me skeptical. It will always be in "his" best interest. When "I" contacted attorneys after discovering his secret life, I was literally told that I needed to work it out with him (despite the multitudes of APs, dangerous activities, deceptions, and God-knows-what WH has been involved with during the course of our marriage) because he holds all of the cards and there aren't that many cards to begin with. I have stayed home to raise the kids. I put my career on hold to do so and therefore we depend on his income-which isn't much. On top of that, the attorneys I spoke with stated that with our special needs child, I'm really in no position to be filing anyway. True story. I'm guessing that no one seems to see a dollar sign in it for them, so they'd rather stay away. Fair enough.

And FYI--switching assets into your name if you live in a community property state is an effort in futility and a waste of transfer fees (although I suppose it could depend on how strong your argument is and how the judge feels the day he makes his decision....)

Yes, we do live in a community property state. This is another good point, gonnabe. It sounds like-no matter what-there's nothing that can be done here.

*I'm going to post this now and get back to it in a second when things are a bit quieter here-can't concentrate!


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
doesitgetbetter
♀ Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 11:12 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I have always wondered something about post nups. If they lied and broke their marriage vows the first time, then what makes having a post nup any better? Like they won't cheat again because they have a piece of paper saying they will lose all sorts of rights (which, by the way, I'm pretty sure the visitation thing won't fly for a second in court)? If they violated the first contract we had with them, why won't they violate this one?

It's like having a guarantee on the box. If you've seen the movie Tommy Boy, this will make WAY more sense. People feel all warm and fuzzy if there's a guarantee on the box. But the guarantee is really only as good as the company (or person) MAKING the guarantee. One could poop in a box and put a guarantee on the box, and you're still stuck with a guaranteed piece of crap. What good is that?

Just questions I've always had about these post nups. Seems like just more guaranteed crap from a spouse who's already broken contracts with us in the past when they figured we'd divorce them that time as well.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
Eudaimonia
♀ Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 11:13 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks Dare2trust,

I just want to clarify really quickly, that we are not in "R". Limbo is the closest I can come to describing our status at this point-over 2 years past discovery day.

Of course the court is not going to monitor his behavior. I think that when an attorney does look at this, he/she will definitely reiterate what you have said.

WH needs a post nup because it was an absolute condition to his moving back in with us after d-day and a gesture I need/needed to consider R.

You and I have something else in common. WH suffered a TBI fairly recently, so I completely relate to your predicament. Also, you can relate to why I still have the need for the post nup despite the TBI. It is necessary. For me.

So yes, we will talk to an attorney. But again, it will be "his" attorney from "his" employer.

Thank you all so much. I really appreciate it.


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
Eudaimonia
♀ Member
Member # 32445
Default  Posted: 11:18 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage


doesitgetbetter,

One could poop in a box and put a guarantee on the box, and you're still stuck with a guaranteed piece of crap. What good is that?

OMG your post is exactly what I have been thinking! I think that the only thing the Post nup does is it shows some kind of admittance that WS was involved in <blank> should a D come into play. Don't we need to prove who violated the terms of the marriage or something for D? I'm really just tired of getting all of the blame for behaviors and things that he had been doing decades before he even met me.

Your post was brilliant. It's SO funny, but that is the only part I remember about that movie and I remember it a LOT these days!!!!!!


So long, and thanks for all the fish!

Posts: 472 | Registered: Jun 2011
doggiediva
♀ Member
Member # 33806
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Better yet, go ahead and get an uncontested divorce with favorable and secure settlement for you and the kids..
If he wants to be your life partner he will DO WHAT IT TAKES to be on your team and in your life for the long haul and in a way that makes you feel safe..

There are those times that the stakes are too high to R while remaining legally married.. Does that makes any sense? :/


Don't tie your happiness to the tail of somebody else's kite

Posts: 1179 | Registered: Nov 2011
phillygirl
♀ Member
Member # 9078
Default  Posted: 11:48 AM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just a quick story...

I had one of those. STBXHW was sooooo very sorry about all of his bad behaviors. I drew one up, had a lawyer review/change, etc. and we signed.

When it came down to divorce time though, he was still very sorry that "I gave up on us", but he was prepared to fight me over every dime. He had no intention of voluntarily complying with the agreement. I would have had to go to court and fight him. After my attorney explained to me how much that would cost, I ended up just hashing out an different separation agreement with him. Much less than what he agreed to before. In short, that agreement wasn't worth the time and money it took to draw it up.

IMHO I think some WS use those post nup agreements as emotional manipulation -"see how sorry I am, I'm willing to give you everything! You can be sure I won't cheat or lie again! Really, you can TRUST me!!"


Me - BW
Him - WH
Divorced - 7/2013

Posts: 825 | Registered: Dec 2005
doesitgetbetter
♀ Member
Member # 18429
Default  Posted: 1:54 PM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ahhh, philly had the poop in the box guarantee.


DDay - Dec '07
Me - BS
Him - FWS
Us - Committed
May 18, 2010 - I forgave him fully!
"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:10

Posts: 3859 | Registered: Feb 2008
anewday78
♂ Member
Member # 39357
Default  Posted: 2:16 PM, July 12th (Friday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think MysticPenguin has offered-up some very solid advice here. These post-nups seem to provide a false sense of security for a BS who is drawing at straws to regain some semblance of control. I think if you are to truly put him in a spot where he stands to lose a lot to you, have him put his money where his mouth is and get your name ON EVERYTHING, like MysicP said.

Posts: 350 | Registered: May 2013
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