Were away camping with the 4 kids and fws and I went into the village just with the baby to grab a bday pressie and to have a bit of us time n go for brekki, which we did.
After we went I to the hardware shop to get some hooks. The staff lady in there remembered him, he said I'm back today for some hooks so she went to show him where they were. There was a mother and her 3yo son in the shop also and the mother said to her boy quite forcefully "come here now and stand next to me". To which fws walked 6 paces and went n stood next to her and said "you said that so forcefully I thought I'd better do as you said!". The mother didn't quite get it at first then realised what he was doing and laughed, along with the 1st staff lady and another one who had appeared. They were all laughing as was he. I wasn't.
I was thinking about why the need of his to make something out of something that was nout to do with him and insert himself into a mother talking to her son.
I asked him in the van on the way back why he did it-"I thought it was something funny to do, you know funny, something to make you laugh mountainmomma".
I asked him - "I don't understand why you felt the need to do that-why insert and make something out of something that didn't concern you?. I felt that you wanted to be noticed and get a laugh out of the women, to be seen as a funny guy, remembered and I felt that you didn't give consideration to how I might perceive what you did, perhaps you wanted to be noticed and sort of validated by the women laughing, -made you feel good about yourself. I wonder if you would have done that if a man had said the same to his son or how you might of felt if I'd done that to a man".
He basically went on to say that he's being himself and didn't not want yo be himself, that he wasn't thinking of fucking any of the women, wasn't looking for validation, to be noticed and would probably have done it if a man had said the same to his kid and the staff were male. (I seriously doubt it actually).
He got annoyed at me, I said that I think when he's out on his own that he feels he can be different, he denied and said no, he didn't think anything of it, wanted to live a lighthearted life, laugh and have fun before we all die of cancer. To live life. (this is one of the things he originally said to me way back when as a reason to himself when I asked him "why" when he was effing the prostitutes.
He said his boundaries are in place blah blah.
I felt that he was wanting to be noticed by these women and behaved like that to get a laugh out of some strangers (women) to feel good about himself. External validation stuff.
He proceeded to ignore me for the remainder of the afternoon, mix n mingle with the other campers (all friends of ours-were at a home ed community camp) not sit at our table to eat tea with us at communal tea time, sat with another mother (friend of ours) and chatted to her with good eye contact with her for ages, (rarely looks at me when he n i talk) even after theyd finished eating, then later, decide to talk to me and talk about bushcraft, and when I seemed a bit quiet but listened, then proceeded to say "what have I done wrong, dunno what I've done wrong, what have i meant to have done here?, are we having a convo or not?" I just felt he was being passive aggressive all aft, then expecting me to carry on like nothing happened.
We never resolved the shop incident as we were driving back to camp. And I guess because it's not an issue to him he thinks it shouldn't be for me. If I bring it up again he makes out that I'm making a big deal out of nothing. It seems to me he's lacking trying to see it from my pov, feelings and thoughts, I just was not comfortable with how he behaved in the shop, makes me winder what else he'd say or do if I wasn't there. I feel somewhat that he's trying to manipulate me by his post shop incident words, actions n behaviour toward me.
Or Maybe I'm just going mad, and I'm the one who's not thinking right.
Hope for some insight please, pov, advice.
On the other side, his treatment of you for the rest of the day was a bit overboard. He should have embraced you and taken the chance to comfort you rather than ignore you and pretend you didn't exist. And I can also see why his joking with another woman bothered you. That being said, I wouldn't have considered it a big deal, again, I would have likely done that myself. I've never cheated, never been one to need external validation, I'm just a humorous person and like to make people laugh and laugh along with them.
But if it bothered you, then maybe if you could express WHY it bothered you to him. Was it because he was being funny for strangers? If so, then maybe that is something to work on in yourself as you probably loved how funny he was pre-DDay. We can't really expect our spouses to change who they fundamentally are, can we? Or was it that he stood next to a woman that was a stranger? Is there a boundary there that he's aware of? Or was it that you felt a little territorial and viewed his actions as being not in line with your territory?
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with any of those things, just asking and wondering if he knows of a boundary that he may have overstepped.
I am so sorry that that hurt your feelings and ruined your night with your family!
you draw the boundaries on that kind of stuff...not his call anymore as you are trying to heal.
and him ignoring you and acting like a child is unacceptable. and i would let him know that too. he cant get away with hurting your feeling...even though he didnt think it was a big deal...and then since your annoyed with him...ignore you completely...and be all nice to some other woman. hell no. and i would not let him get away with it.
it doesnt have to be world war 3, no....but i would check him on that as soon as possible. go hard. so that he knows full well, that it is not acceptable to you.
my husband used to think it was cute to call another woman "honey" or "sweetie"....well, not anymore since he knows that it will cause a problem in his m.
i am fully on board with YOU.
he denied and said no, he didn't think anything of it, wanted to live a lighthearted life, laugh and have fun before we all die of cancer. To live life.
Fair enough. Wise is the man (woman) who never loses their child-like heart.
I felt that he was wanting to be noticed by these women and behaved like that to get a laugh out of some strangers (women) to feel good about himself. External validation stuff.
My best advise for you as a spouce is to speak up and let your spouce understand what is acceptable or not acceptable to you. PERIOD. It's not just about boundaries but more so about knowing your boundaries and expressing them. Also about wantiing to know your spouce's boundaries so you can honour them too.
It would be so nice to be able to just be ourselves around others. To say whatever we want. Do whatever we want. Joke around with whoever we want. Even be a little flirty with whoever we want. BUT KNOW that no matter what we had each others best interest and the best interest of our relationship at heart.
Those days are gone. I will never have that level of trust again. I don't think she will ever have that level of trust in herself ever again. We are semi-isolating our true selves from others to defend our relationship.
It is one of the costs of this. But in reality only having each other to be our true selves with is a bonding situation. It makes us even more special to each other.
"Knowing is half the battle"
Expecting progress not perfection
This is who your H still is.
He's unwilling to live within healthy boundaries of his own and he's unwilling to honor boundaries that you need for recovery. I know this because I behaved the same way while un-repentant.
I even used the P/A techniques he used on you to punish my wife whenever she started questioning my motives. Such juvenile wayward behavior all around.
And when he dismissed your concerns by saying, "his boundaries are in place", it was just another way to blow you off.... when the boundaries are obviously not there.
As for you being oversensitive.... It's not the case IMO, I call it being aware and refusing to live in the denial you once allowed yourself to exist in.
Please remember he does what he does because of who "he" chooses to be, not because of you and your choices.
D-Days April - Oct. 2007 Recovery started Nov. 2007
"Found Myself", I was right there in my shoes all along!
Search for self called off!
Why Repentance Is Necessary? Because Undeserved Mercy Empowers Entitlement/Sin
My H is a funny, attention getting kind of man too. But I don't find it funny when he seeks attention from women. I always speak up now and tell him when I find his behavior desrepectful to me. These are the consequences of his A
He didn't get it at first, but he does now. I don't have to hit him over the head with a 2x4.
PA that lasted approx. 2 weeks. OW was a younger but totally screwed up %#@%!
Has your H stopped to consider the boundaries of the others that he may or may not have crossed? For me, this has been one of the bigger insights I've drawn from my time here: just because I'm not crossing one of MY boundaries with something I say/do, that doesn't mean I'm not crossing someone ELSE's boundaries.
The woman in the shop was startled and didn't understand what your H was doing. I'm guessing he crossed a boundary she wasn't expecting, which left her in a defensive position for the rest of their 'conversation.'
Has your H ever stopped to consider the boundaries of other people he's crossing? My guess is 'no,' but I don't know him.
Honestly, that's one of the things that has kept me in-check now that I have the presence of mind to think about it. Just because it doesn't cross MY boundary doesn't mean it doesn't cross someone else's. Puts a whole new spin on the kinds of things I think about saying/doing in mixed company or in public.
I agree with you sweetie. He has NO business behaving that way with strange women. And yes, I agree, if it were men in the same scenario, he would NOT have behaved that way. He is getting off on the female attention.
Mr Class Clown. My H has always been that way, and at one time I loved that about him. But no more. Oh hell no. Absolutely not. Doesn't get to play Mr. funny Guy guy anymore. It simply is NOT appropriate for a grown man to behave that way in public. Maybe with family....but strangers? Oh hell, no way.
He should be reaching out to you to comfort you, to make you feel loved and safe, not acting as if you have wronged him by having the audacity to have feelings.
Yes, I think it is a way of getting validation of some sort, but that is how they operate and you know, we all like some kind of outside validation but we all have different ways of seeking it, I think.
But as others said, his reaction to your reaction seems overboard too.
my husband is an outgoing man...talks to everyone...calls women sweetie...that kind of thing.
Mine calls them "kiddo" which I think many women interpret as about the same as "sweetie." Yesterday I could have smacked him; he said "See ya kiddo" to his old hs gf, as we were leaving her station (she was selling goods at the flea market).
I know beyond any shadow of a doubt he has no interest in this woman other than we are both polite and friendly if we see her out and about. But he still has that habit of calling women "kiddo." (She is 57, the same age as him, if that matters!)
Now my H would NOT call them sweetie and he hates it when women he barely knows call him sweetie or honey but I see it as not much different than his kiddo thing.
Does it get better
I did used to find his jokey demeanour funny pre dday, and realise now unfortunately that elements of that were red flags I was unaware of for external validation specifically by women, which now is something that needs looking at and addressing. I don't expect him yo change the jokey side if him per se, just that he be more self aware around women with boundaries and others boundaries or potential boundaries & take these into consideration more especially after dday. I seriously doubt he would if done the same if it was 3 males in the shop. I don't think he gives thought to overstepping boundaries at times lime this or stops to think before he acts, this of course led to dday.
Quote "you draw the boundarieson that kind of stuff..nit his call anymore as you are trying to heal".
Thank you for this. I feel that he dosnt always consider the permanent changes and differences now post dday of his actions. He prob feels I'm trying to control him (I'm not) he has control issues with his mum, I think elements of this are projected onto me still, perhaps without him realising as he's not delved into this a great deal.
Integrity matters & Chico
Agree with all you say thank you so much.
Thank you very much for your comments, I aggree with all you say and sadly feel this is what it is. It really helps to get a FWS perspective, yours really spoke to me & I'm very comforted by your understanding, I wish he had that depth of understanding n compassion too.
Searching for hope
Thanks, yes these are the consequences I feel he dosnt want to accept as they're hard fir him.
Thank you. Your guess i feel is right. No I don't think he stopped to consider the boundaries of others that he may or may not have crossed. He saw the opportunity to make a joke infront of women (I feel) yo be seen as funny & that was the extent of his thinking. He basically said the same when we talked after-to be funny. I wish my spouse was as self aware as you are with your boundaries & interactions. It's great to get FWS perspective like yourself that truly does understand.
Totally agree with you.
Agree with all you say too. It would have been lovely if he'd reached out and helped me feel safe and loved but he dosnt do this if I raise anything thats bugging me or i meed to talk about A related or behaviour related. Most often I get pushed away, quiet treatment, ignored for a while or defensiveness or strops. It dosnt bode well for me in reconciling, intact has the opposite effect.
After trying to talk with him again this morning, he said it wasn't 6 steps he took towards her it was one, there was no room at the table etc. Still not empathic that it's what he did, not the number of steps he took that's the issue here and his treatment of me afterwards. He went back to bed and got up half hour ago. I really feel we need MC of some sort, we had 6 weeks in the beginning when he xame home in 2011 but it was wasted as he was still deeply in the fog. He's reluctant to MC. I got the sorry you feel that way and sorry for what I did, but it feels meaningless as it's clear he dosnt understand (ir want to) this issue has affected me nor the bigger picture of the changes after dday.
Thank you all.
Then he treated you badly? You are clearly dealing with an unremorseful spouse. Hopefully he gets it, and soon. Don't give up expressing your needs and requirements for R.
[This message edited by Knowing at 8:18 AM, July 7th, 2013 (Sunday)]
We are in R.
IMO, most normal, respectful, adult women would be somewhat taken aback by that sort of behavior from a strange man, smile a fake smile, say, 'haha' and quickly move away. BUT, as we all know, there are many many women that are so starved for male attention, that they are delighted for a stranger to kid with them, notice them, joke with them. They are the 'weak' ones in the herd, (as is mentioned in the 'Honey, they always affair down' thread).
And so that makes this kind of behavior even more dangerous and inappropriate because it almost instantaneously separates the weak from the strong, and throws the 'weak' together, ie, WS and OP's seeking validation and outside approval.
I try to explain this to H, and I really don't think he can see it. His behavior is so ingrained from having been 'class clown' from 7th grade on, that it maybe next to impossible to change.
Oh god, I just realized I married a 7th grade boy.
[This message edited by painpaingoaway at 8:36 AM, July 7th (Sunday)]
a wayward, or one on his way to becoming one...may be friendly to a woman...joke with her...take an interest in what she is saying or doing...alll "innocent." and then, that weak woman....whether he is married or not...will think "he like me...he is paying attention to me." and then, the "interaction" or "connection" begins....
there will always be somebody out there who will be willing to sleep with a married man,. all you really have to do with a potential ap most of the time...is "be nice" to them. their weak head will eat that up...by thinking they are special.
it's a weak mind. an insecure one. you know? a silly bitch.
i have explained that to my husband, and i am firm. he doesnt have any business being friends, funny with, joking, or taking an interest in any woman...period. becasue a "silly bitch" will always think "he likes me." it is about keeping himself out of a risky situation. nothing is ever innocent in my opinion.
whether or not my husband agrees with this or not is irrelevant. he just needs to respect my boundaries if he wants to remain married to me. we have played that little game before.
Yes, I feel this is the behaviour of someone who's not fully remorseful. Sadly. He's been back 3 years now & if he's still not getting these "basics" then I should begin to accept maybe he will never. I've expressed Manu times my requirements for R, MC, IC, reading, posting on wayward etc, but feel like I'm dealing with a rebellious person at times. My hope of him truly getting it and me feeling like he's got it are diminishing. There's been other things over the last few months that haven't boded well either.
Thanks for your posts again and I agree totally. It's like the weak have their own language the string ones don't. All their lightbulbs go ding ding ding when they're "being nice". He really fed off that crap when actively cheating. Ate it up, all the laughs and fun.
I feel his "templates" as I call them are there to varying degrees or in other words I feel a dry adulterer. I just know that I haven't really felt solid in feeling safe with him for a long long time, he dosnt help either when he responds like this, defensive angry, stroppy. I'm tired of feeling n living in this way. Got some thinking to do. Lately I feel he's been less patient, physically affectionate, understanding & willing to listen. more PA angry and distant emotionally.
Quote "whether or not my husband agrees with me or not is irrelevant. He just needs to respect my boundaries if he wants to remain married to me."
He's ignored me today, says he hasn't been, he's kept himself busy in the company of others, not tried to talk to me about this for it to be resloved. I've tried again and he's responding that I'm giving my "court case answers" "you think that way I think this". "you dont see it from my pov". Defensive and pushing me away.
Is it that hard to try and understand that I prob won't appreciate behaviour like joking and laughing and getting attention from strangers (women) is something I'm not comfortable with after all this?.
Thanks guys, I so need this place, truly thank you. Crying now.
IMO those who have strayed have shown they do not know how to set boundaries that keeps them from being tempted. As such, they need to put themselves on a shorter leash.
Yeah, it's a double standard - but one that was earned. Not to mention the fact that he owes a heightened duty to make you feel secure.
What I would have passed off a year ago is now suspect. That's just the way it is.
No more. I think at least three times before I say or do anything "spontaneous" now.
How might this affect my BH (whether he's present or not I make him present in my mind)?
How could this be misinterpreted?
Is this in line with who I WANT to be for myself?
So I don't kid around much with strangers or acquaintances any more but I call that self improvement.
And sporting a "tude" after my BH has called me out on something? Nope. Not gonna happen. Not something I want in my life or my marriage. I take his constructive criticism very seriously. I've already proven that my judgement isn't always great...
I'm sorry MM I'm very worried about your WH. He can't feel good about himself while acting like a pouty 12 year old.