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User Topic: Raising boys not to be misogynists
grapefruit
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Member # 27090
Default  Posted: 4:38 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I'm not sure if this should be in 'Off Topic', but I guess it's infidelity-related.

This article disturbed me. A lot.

http://jezebel.com/5866602/can-you-tell-the-difference-between-a-mens-magazine-and-a-rapist

My H appears to be respectful to women outwardly (and always criticised men who were sexist or misogynistic), but his secret behaviour over the past 15 years showed otherwise ... prostitutes, strippers, escorts, and an obsession with adult sites and meeting up with women for sex. I've seen some of the things he wrote on the sites, and he was a total misogynist in that part of his life.

As the mother of a young boy, I am concerned. How do we bring up our children to be respectful of women? My H's behaviour stemmed from his own issues and could have manifested itself in alcohol or drug abuse, but instead he chose women ... I'm terrified that my son could end up like that.

Thoughts?


FWW / BS (me)
FWH / BS (him)
In R ...

Posts: 85 | Registered: Jan 2010
RockyMtn
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Member # 37043
Default  Posted: 6:39 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Well, at least your H is outwardly respectful of women. That helps a bit with the example.

How does he treat you, day-to-day? Do you present yourselves as a united front - with both of you making decisions? Both of you disciplining? Or does your WH take on the "strong" role?

For me, it is incredibly important that they see WH and I as equals, in all ways. They need to see him defer to me (and me to him). They need to see me lead as much as him. It helps, too, that I work out side the home (equalizes their perception) and my WH is "liberal" in the sense that he doesn't think he's the breadwinner, leader, etc.


Me, BS, 30s
Him, WS, 30s, Steppenwolf
Kids: Yep
D-Day 1: September 2011, 6 week EA
D-Day 2: January 2013, discovered EA was a PA; there was another PA in 2010. All TT.
Goal = serenity.

Posts: 667 | Registered: Oct 2012
jjct
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Member # 17484
Default  Posted: 6:55 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think just the opposite - that your son sees through the hypocrisy & is confused by the dual message.

Are you with your H?
Not that you can change him, but what you show is strong boundaries, that you won't tolerate the hypocrisy and disrespect.

Your son will respect you for that.


Posts: 6670 | Registered: Dec 2007 | From: texas
HardenMyHeart
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Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 8:13 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do we bring up our children to be respectful of women?

We should raise our children to respectful of all people, not just women.

Just because someone is unfaithful does not mean they are misogynists. Based on your description of your WH, I would not call him a misogynist.


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5696 | Registered: Aug 2007
doodley
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Member # 21433
Default  Posted: 10:11 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, we should raise our children to be respectful of all people, but you're a fool if you think there isn't a pervasive culture of misogyny in our society.


It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. ~Albus Dumbledore

Posts: 120 | Registered: Oct 2008 | From: GA
GraceisGood
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Member # 17686
Default  Posted: 11:43 AM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

How do we bring up our children to be respectful of women?

IMO, that is a difficult order in our society.

We parents cannot control all the messages that go into our child's minds can we? We have no idea what ones make impressions because each child is different and their minds are uniquely wired. We also have so many variables such as family history, local/region, religion, history in general, and so on.

For me, the current conclusion I have to this is to (1) try hard to teach and model respect for all, gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, culture, etc. (2) share my own struggles in these areas, share my realizations and awareness I have had and continue to have (for example, I grew up hearing boys put down with a phrase of being like a girl, such as "throwing/running like a girl" or "whining like a girl" etc or it being shameful if a girl was better than a boy at anything, and it was just a habit to say, and one day it hit me what I was saying without thinking, just out of cultural/local habit. (3) then expand this by discussing all controversial things such as the lumber industry vs the spotted owl, and showing how each side can and should be respectful of the other side irregardless of right vs wrong, that we are all humans and respect should happen no matter what IMO, but the complexities of such issues, the lies behind thinking, the built in judgements everyone has, and each ones lies and judgements are different and we do not all come to a realization of these things, or if we do, it is on an individual time line, not a universal one, etc, and so on.

So, to put it more concise, I think this is a sub issue of a greater issue of compassion, respect, kindness, awareness, realization, etc. It is about challenging our un thought about beliefs, our inherited ways of thinking, assumptions, etc. Just as I was surprised when I had my realization above I am sure many men think they are pro women but have many unchallenged negative beliefs about women and vice versa.

Grace


We have a tendency to think the love offered us is a reflection of our worth and value.But in actuality,it's a reflection of the person that is giving it.We love out of who WE are-not because of who the receiver is.At least in terms of real love.TSMF

Posts: 3461 | Registered: Jan 2008 | From: how far the east is from the west
NeverAgain2013
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Member # 38121
Default  Posted: 12:35 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There are an AWFUL lot of young men out there that show nothing but contempt toward women, and I often wonder where in the HELL they got that from at such a young age (mid-20's, mostly).

I beling to another message board and the amount of young men in their 20's who speak SO negatively toward women is actually frightening.

I raised a son and while I let him get away with not always towing the line, the one thing I insisted upon was RESPECT. I think I've done a good job as people speak glowingly of him (he's 30 now) but that's really all we can do - teach them to have respect and to live by the golden rule.


Be careful - that 'knight in shining armor' may very well be nothing more than an assclown wrapped in tin foil.
ME: 50+ years old and cute as a button :-)
Ex-WBF: Just a lying, cheating, gravy-sucking pig - and I left him in 2012.

Posts: 1828 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: USA
nofool4u
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Member # 38509
Default  Posted: 3:48 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I will always tell my boys to respect women, to treat them well, and to never do them dirty.

However, on the flip side, I will convey to them that if a woman every cheats on them that they need to just leave the situation.

Honestly, if one of my boys gets married and its found out that she cheats on him, I simply cannot tell him I don't want her around any longer, but I won't be able to stomach any family functions with her there. I'll just have to bite my lip and try not to interact with her any more than I have to. Sorry, just had to add that.

Having said that:

How do we bring up our children to be respectful of women?

As far as your question above, I'm assuming your boys aren't seeing the prostitutes and escorts? As long as they aren't in view of it, you just have to do your best to teach them how to treat women. Your H can do this too, however would be fairly hypocritical while doing it.

[This message edited by nofool4u at 3:52 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday)]


Me - fBS

Posts: 210 | Registered: Feb 2013
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:05 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yes, we should raise our children to be respectful of all people, but you're a fool if you think there isn't a pervasive culture of misogyny in our society.

Misandry too if you care to look.
Or maybe it's just a whole bunch of self entitled dumb fucks who don't give a shit about other people at all, and people only notice the shit directed at those like them.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:34 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just went over a read the article. Not really a very good study. Took me all of 30 seconds to find the errors in methodology that render this study scientifically invalid. It seems to have been done more because somebody needed to publish a lurid paper to secure their grant funding or tenure position.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
grapefruit
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Member # 27090
Default  Posted: 9:55 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for the replies.

How does he treat you, day-to-day? Do you present yourselves as a united front - with both of you making decisions? Both of you disciplining? Or does your WH take on the "strong" role?

For me, it is incredibly important that they see WH and I as equals, in all ways. They need to see him defer to me (and me to him). They need to see me lead as much as him. It helps, too, that I work out side the home (equalizes their perception) and my WH is "liberal" in the sense that he doesn't think he's the breadwinner, leader, etc.

Apart from a few issues that we're sorting out in therapy, he is a great partner day-to-day. He treats me with respect. He is also "liberal" and yes, we are a united front with parenting.

Are you with your H?
Not that you can change him, but what you show is strong boundaries, that you won't tolerate the hypocrisy and disrespect.

Yes, we reconciled. Yes, I have strong boundaries now and I wouldn't tolerate disrespect (it was a complete shock to find out about the cheating).

Just because someone is unfaithful does not mean they are misogynists. Based on your description of your WH, I would not call him a misogynist.

True. I don't mean that he hates women, more that he objectified them, when he's not like that in real life.

I grew up hearing boys put down with a phrase of being like a girl, such as "throwing/running like a girl" or "whining like a girl" etc or it being shameful if a girl was better than a boy at anything, and it was just a habit to say, and one day it hit me what I was saying without thinking, just out of cultural/local habit.

It's so hard to get away from this. My child is very young still and already people say "oh, he's a boy" to explain behaviour when it has nothing to do with gender.

As far as your question above, I'm assuming your boys aren't seeing the prostitutes and escorts? As long as they aren't in view of it, you just have to do your best to teach them how to treat women. Your H can do this too, however would be fairly hypocritical while doing it.

Nope, definitely not in view of it! My H no longer engages in this behaviour, since he was discovered, and he now goes to therapy and attends SA meetings.

I guess I'm trying to understand how he became that way. He says they didn't really have respect for his mother growing up - his father modelled that - but they have a great relationship now. He said his mother did EVERYTHING at home - they weren't expected to help with chores much. I don't believe in bringing up kids to be dependent on their mother, so our boy will be having quite a different upbringing ...


FWW / BS (me)
FWH / BS (him)
In R ...

Posts: 85 | Registered: Jan 2010
Athena1979
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Member # 39393
Default  Posted: 10:50 PM, July 3rd (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I had to look up the word misogynists.

I think of men who would be misogynists as abusive, like physical and verbal.

I also don't understand the reason that men objectify women, treating no different than filling your tank up with gas.

I worry about my daughters looking for a man like mine who is unfaithful.

That scares me, a lot.


Married 11/11/11
Together since 3/2005
2 kids
D-day 12/27/12
D-day 4/12/13
D-day 6/26/13
God keeps the devil on a short leash. God will never give you more than you can handle.

Posts: 111 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Athena1979
brooke4
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Member # 13581
Default  Posted: 2:32 AM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I can really understand where you're coming from - the extent to which my H objectified women came as a total shock to me when I found out about the A. As far as I knew, he was always respectful, viewed women as equals, was completely proper in the workplace...

I think the best thing you can do for your son is to have your H keep sorting through his issues and thought patterns and reactions in counselling. Present a united front and be good role models, both as individuals and as partners in a marriage.

There is a book that my H and I both read and that he found really enlightening - it sort of turned on a lightbulb for him:

http://www.amazon.com/Female-Chauvinist-Pigs-Raunch-Culture/dp/0743284283/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1372923046&sr=1-1&keywords=female+chauvinist+pigs


Me: BS, 40, Him: WS 41
Married: 15 years
3 children
D-Day: 10/2005

Posts: 1509 | Registered: Feb 2007
idiot85
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Member # 38934
Default  Posted: 6:35 AM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't think FHM readers are outwardly respectful of women to be honest! I bought that magazine once because it had Gillian Anderson on... Never again!

I think it's just important to teach about respect in general. I don't think it's healthy to overdo gender differences. I was brought up to respect humans not just women.

Right now men and women aren't equal so it's our as parents to the next generation to instill equality.

For example- my school friends would say "im not allowed to hit girls" i was told i wasn't allowed to hit anybody.

Equality is the key to a respectful society in my opinion.

ETA- I was about 14/15 when I bought it! Judging by the front covers- nothing's changed. Lad's mags are for the retarded who don't so much speak as grunt.

[This message edited by idiot85 at 6:37 AM, July 4th (Thursday)]


BH-29 (me)
WW-28

Multi famam, conscientiam, pauci verentur.


Posts: 575 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Old Blighty
sisoon
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Member # 31240
Default  Posted: 8:00 AM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the issue is that our culture (US and probably Canada) disrespects men and women, unless they're powerful or rich.

I watch a lot of TV - I'm finally watching as much as the 'average' US resident does. I gotta tell you, if I were not a homo sapiens, and if learned about homo sapiens through TV, I'd have contempt for both men and women.

And if I learned about people from the news, I'd also be contemptuous of both genders.

(If, by chance, I were an alien who found SI, I'd probably think some men and women are OK, some are worse than the media portray them....)


fBH (me) - 70 (22 in my head), fWW (plainsong) - 65+, Married 45+, together since 1965
DDay - 12/2010
Recovered, not yet fully R'ed
I share my own experience because it's the only experience I know, not because I'm a good model.

Posts: 10420 | Registered: Feb 2011 | From: Chicago area
momdaughterwife
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Member # 32209
Default  Posted: 8:14 AM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I've worried about the same thing. JMHO but cheating is the ultimate in disrespect. (It's not just men obviously who cheat.)
We have two boys. I've always tried to be close with them. Help them. Talk to them. Teach them. Encourage a good relationship with their grandma. Spend time with friends who are raising girls and our nieces, etc. Expect them to help me when they can. Require they attend functions like weddings, funerals, grad parties, etc. All the 'bad behavior' in today's society IMO is from a lack of coping skills. That's harder to teach. Set an example for finding peace in little things. Failures are not tragedies. Set backs open new doors. They can't learn only from us. I had some great friends and extended family who set great examples for me, which is why it's so important to be sure your kids are involved and present. Don't allow too much escaping with tv and computers. A love of books and reading are great coping tools as well. Following all this ourselves. Setting the example for coping and solving problems. If we're lost in our problems they will probably be too.


Me BS
Him WH
2 boys
We've all been through a lot. Our family seems to be thriving again. I pray that will continue.

Posts: 825 | Registered: May 2011
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:30 PM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Misandry too if you care to look.
Or maybe it's just a whole bunch of self entitled dumb fucks who don't give a shit about other people at all, and people only notice the shit directed at those like them.

I agree. I get irked as well whenever I hear (admittedly, 20-something) female coworkers throwing around things like "Why are guys so dumb?" or some such nonsense. It happens in more subtle ways as well...for example, if I overhear a fairly raunchy conversation between two female coworkers at work in a public space, or a female coworker is running around sharing *junk pics* of the guy she's dating (doing?) and I say anything about it being inappropriate or gross or the like, I'm likely to get sideways looks or be called "gay" or even "don't be such a little bitch."

Not trying to be all "doods versus chickz" here....just saying that misogyny (and sexism in general) is enforced by both sides in a variety of little ways. Whenever a person of either sex says something that reinforces preconceived gender roles, IMO it's a little nudge in the direction of sexism.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2180 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
Ascendant
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Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 12:50 PM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think the issue is that our culture (US and probably Canada) disrespects men and women, unless they're powerful or rich.

Agreed. There's a pretty common sitcom trope here in the US that usually follows some version of:

t/j follows:

Husband screws up, or in some other way displeases his wife.
Wife tells him that he's "cut off" from sex. Husband says he's fine with it, he can live without sex.
After a few days/weeks/whatever, the husband caves in and does what the wife wants.

There's a variety of effed-up messages here, you know? For both sides, if you're an impressionable young boy/girl: If you're a guy, you better do what your wife wants, or else *shock* she might not give you sex. The horror. So even if you're in the right, it's just better (easier?) to give in rather than assume you have equal footing and knowledge in the relationship. God forbid you think with your brain and not your member. For girls: If your husband doesn't do what you want, it's ok to 'punish' him. Relationships *should* work on a transactional basis, young lady. Oh, and the most important thing to your husband will *for sure* be his penis and it's presumed ability to dictate his every action, so...you know, hit him where it hurts....because obviously men are base creatures run by their base needs and women are shrewd relationship managers who hold the currency to get stuff done. None of this is true, clearly.

I recognize that modeling needs to come from the parents first and foremost, but to some degree we are all products (victims?) of our cultural backgrounds, you know?

t/j over.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2180 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 3:50 PM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Sitcoms???

Pretty much an ISO standard for cast on those. Hot smart sophisticated wife who holds everything together, husband is out of shape dumb goof that is always causing trouble. I think most of the protests against Married With Children when it came out were from ISO 9001 auditors.

Now is there any situation in which a guy could get away with the equivalent of this?


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
stilllovingher
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Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 4:25 PM, July 4th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

tl;dr

what do you have against male gymnasts?!?


The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2407 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Topic Posts: 25
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