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LONG talk last night. Things I made clear to WH: I hurt, every morning I feel as if a knife is in my heart, it hurts me to see the OW, i dont know how he could have done that, I have suicidal thoughts, I feel worthless, if it happens again I will not stay...it would be a dealbreaker since this time nearly killed me, and that I do not trust him, and I dont feel like he is sorry all the time, and I dont feel like I have my best friend anymore that i can talk to, and I dont like his defensive anger when I do talk about the A. I said more, but thats the jist.

I did get more answer to some questions...details.

He apologized, told me more things that I asked, he said he doescate care about the OW, he never did, he regrets it more than anything, he hates her and hates himself as they are both the same, he is sorry how he hurt me, he says he doesnt need reminding how he has done wrong, and how it was bad because he does that himself, he promised it will never happen again, and that he was weak and selfish. Blah blah blah.

He did say that I am blowing the A out of porportion. I am making the A out to be some passionate, lustful love affair...and it was NOT. He said that I am imagining way too many things that simply was not true. He said he felt bad during it, felt bad after, guilty, and it didnt mean anything to him. He didnt let her go down on him, they didnt see each other naked..it was quick and not very inovolved since they were AT work. He said he didnt put much effort into it, and when she tried to snuggle him, he basically sat there. He said she tried to get him to have an A outside of work (go to a hotel on the weekend) but it never left the work place, and she tried to hold his hands, and after two times he stopped it. He NEVER spoke bad about me to the OW, and the OW never did about me. He swears he loved me the whole time, and never stopped, and never thought about her while he was with me, and never while we had sex. He promises that the love we have is meaningful, and she was never more important than me. He said that she just constantly threw herself at him, and he felt things at home were getting rough with me being moody, and he was weak. He admits that was no excuse, and it will never happen again. And he admits (per my questioning) that he doesnt think he was the first married man she cheated with...and most likely will not be the last.

The end.

So my question...do you think us (the BS) make the A out to be more than it was with our made up mind movies etc?

Im not sure how I feel about the talk....I am still hurt, and that will never change. I still despise seeing the OW and hate it. HATE IT.

Any words of advice, or opinions appreciated.

So my question...do you think us (the BS) make the A out to be more than it was with our made up mind movies etc?

If the situations were reversed, I wonder how big of a deal your H would make about you having casual office sex? What type of mind movies would he have? We make a big deal out of it because it is a big fucking deal. Just my opinion.

No he is blame shifting.

I am making the A out to be some passionate, lustful love affair...and it was NOT

He is trying to justify his behaviour, it really doesn't matter if it was a full on deep in love relationship or a quick ONS. He still betrayed you.

You need as many answers as you need to deal with this, he needs to man up and face what he has done to you and your relationship. He needs to do everything you ask of him to help you heal.

Please look after yourself, get yourself to your doctor or IC, you may need some help to deal with this. I am sorry you are here. Please remember his actions have nothing to do with you. You didn't cause this affair, he made choices clearly wrong ones.

It may not have been a big deal to him, but it's a huge deal to you. I believe he is rug sweeping and not caring about your feelings.

No, you aren't making a mountain out of a mole hill. It doesn't matter if it was a passionate office affair or a quick thing, as he described.

My Ex told me it was no big deal that he was half naked in a bed with another woman because they were "just friends." My response, "Oh, so you wouldn't mind if I was half naked in bed with (insert male friend's name.)" His look - - said it all.

I agree with IC. Plus, have you read the Healing Library?

[This message edited by travels at 7:41 AM, June 27th (Thursday)]

I think he is minimizing his actions and the damage he has done. I think he is unremorseful and wants you to just get the fuck over it already. He is tired of listening to you and wants to sweep it all under the rug. He dropped a fucking bomb into the middle of your marriage and now says it's not as a big a deal as you think it is.

FTG.

So...what happens the next time you're moody or things are rough at home? What steps has he taken to assure you he has learned new coping skills? IC? Remorse? Support? Transparency? No TT? Is he willing to talk if you need to talk? Will he answer your questions every time you ask? Has he been tested for STD's? Has he gone NC with OW? Has he read and posted on SI? Does he read any books to figure out why he did this and how to become a healthy,safe partner for you?

Has he done *anything* other than give lip service and some housework occasionally?

He said that I am imagining way too many things that simply was not true.

Yes you are. I did too. I suspect most BS do.

The truth is we do those things for good reasons. When our WS lie (omission or direct) to us, when they violated our trust on a very primal level, they have us calling everything about the person we know into question. It is also very easy to extrapolate that into everything in our lives. So yes, I think that BS's imagine way too much, but it's because we no longer believe, and I think very rationally, what our WS our saying or what they did.

When you are left in the dark, without sight or hearing, you only have your imagination.

That is why we need to see their behavior over time, why we need to hear the answers again and again, why we need them to march in line, why we need them to figure out why and how they would allow themselves to do this - it's because we no longer believe them. They need to make us believe.

Tell him that....

take care...

You've got to be kidding me.

Sometimes I wonder if a lot of people who have affairs were always emotional dunces or if it's just the fog of the affair that makes them that way.

My WW claimed I was being overly dramatic any time I tried to tell her how I felt. She was either incapable or unwilling to put herself in my shoes or to even try to imagine what it would be like to be on the receiving end of a betrayal like this. Not that she could have imagined it accurately, but she hardly even tried.

I know people who've been put through serial adultery by their spouses, and others who have had to endure finding out about brief emotional affairs. And while I can't get inside anyone's head and measure levels of pain, it seems to me like it doesn't matter what kind of affair it was or how long it was going on. It still hurts just as much.

But hey. At least he apologized. I didn't even get that.

I have read the Healing Library and I am reading After the Affair. I was going to IC, but cant afford it.

He is not going to IC, he has maintain NC, he is transparent, he has answered all of my questions regarding details, he moved areas so he is away from her, and he tried to avoid anything on TV or movies or life that would trigger me.

He does get defensive and angry when i talk to him. He says I say the same things over and over, and we need to focus on each other.

He says he has identified things in himself, and what led up to that to keep it from happening again, and he will avoid situations that are inappropriate. He knows what healthy boundaries are. He does not know about SI, and does not read books.

I told him that I believe he was rugsweeping, and he said he isnt, and that we have talked about things OVER AND OVER and maybe thats true. he said he doesnt mind listening if I say different things, but I say the same things over and over.

He said that eventually I need to take a leap of faith and believe him and put our effort into focusing on US, and trusting him.

You say the same things over and over..and ask the same questions over and over..because you have been traumatized...finding out your spouse has betrayed you is a trauma...asking these questions helps you process what has happened. Explain that to him. I'd be interested in his response.

Did he get tested for STD's?

Did you?

He avoids TV shows and such that will trigger you. Is this FOR you..or so he doesn't have to deal with the trigger and the fallout of the trigger?

He maintains NC...but they still work in the same place..just moved locations..that's a start..but is he looking for another job..so the OW will be completely removed from your lives and you can feel more secure?

And he's answered all of your questions...yet he gets angry when you try to talk to him.

Why won't he go to IC?

Oh...and NO..you do NOT *need* to take a leap of faith. That would be reckless on your part. you're 6 months out from dday with a WH who hasn't faced his issues and IS rugsweeping. It is HIS job to show you he can be trusted..over time. Your job,if you want to R,is to set boundaries,consequences, and be open to his attempts to earn your trust back. Yes,you need to give him a chance..but that doesn't mean you pretend the past didn't happen and you blindly trust him again. It means you both do the hard work to R..and HE proves to you..through consistent,honest,remorseful actions that he is safe for you.

Is he aware of the 3-5 year time frame?

Honey,are you in IC? Im worried about you.

[This message edited by confused615 at 8:09 AM, June 27th (Thursday)]

do you think us (the BS) make the A out to be more than it was with our made up mind movies etc?

Yes, I think most BS do that. After all the lies and deception we then resort to what the worst case possibility is and imagine that happened. In some cases maybe it did and in other cases maybe it didn't. This isn't blame shifting, it is the result of all the lies and deception we no longer know what to believe. We need to protect ourselves and prepare for the worst.

The WS needs to earn back their trust not just through their words but through their actions. It will take time and not something that will happen over night. They need to be willing to put in the work. Your WS may be right that you are blowing the A out of proportion compared to what maybe happened but by recognizing that he doesn't get to get out of doing the work he needs to do of earning back your trust.

my reply to a similar thought process was something like-

Minimizing it doesn't help your case, you know? However unimportant it was, it was worth risking your job, your health, your M, your family for. So if you're willing to risk it all for so little, there is something seriously wrong with you that you need to work on..........

I do not believe you or I am making a mountain out of a mole hill. I do, however, believe the affairs were nothing to many of the WSes who have them. But those are two different animals.

My husband's affair was not a passionate, lustful, yada, yada affair. I get that. The hurt is the betrayal. That is what many WSes don't get.

My husband's affair lasted 3-6 months. I would feel no differently than if it had been a one night stand. The disrespect it showed me told me who he was and what his character was. There is no mountain high enough that measures that, imho.

I got tested for a STD, and it was negative.

He does work at the same place, we both do. First he moved buildings (so they dont work in the same bldg), then moved groups, and now is looking for a new job.

He maintained NC.

I dont know why he wont got to IC...he would use the excuse we cant afford it, but he wont go to IC or MC.

Ive told him the 3-5 year frame, and he thinks thats ridiculous.

He gets angry when i talk about it.

He said he felt bad during it, felt bad after, guilty, and it didnt mean anything to him.

O poor him. I call pig shit on this.

He felt bad. But not bad enough to not jump her bones. Not bad enough to stop the A. Not bad enough to not go back for seconds thirds and fourths.

IMO your WH is minimizing. Lying. Just my opinion though.

I dont know why he wont got to IC...he would use the excuse we cant afford it, but he wont go to IC or MC.

That would mean he would have to admit that something was wrong other than, 'opps, I made a mistake.'

From your follow up detail it sounds like he wants to do the right thing. I mean he is adjusting his work, he is transparent (by your account) and you think he is NC. All good baseline stuff IMO to even consider staying.

That all said, the next part is the hard stuff, he needs to figure out how he let himself do this? Why did he compromise himself? Why did he break his own values or more to the point what are his values when it comes to his M?

Naturally, he does not "have" to do anything. IMO a WS is only worth staying with if they do. That's what they call 'the work.' If it wasn't hard they would call it vacation.

take care...

He does get defensive and angry when i talk to him. He says I say the same things over and over, and we need to focus on each other.

He says he has identified things in himself, and what led up to that to keep it from happening again, and he will avoid situations that are inappropriate. He knows what healthy boundaries are. He does not know about SI, and does not read books.

I told him that I believe he was rugsweeping, and he said he isnt, and that we have talked about things OVER AND OVER and maybe thats true. he said he doesnt mind listening if I say different things, but I say the same things over and over.

He said that eventually I need to take a leap of faith and believe him and put our effort into focusing on US, and trusting him.

He is rugsweeping and blame shifting. You have gone out and searched for tools to help you through this. He is winging it. He hasn't gone to IC and he won't read books. No matter what he says he does NOT get it. My STBXWW did the same thing. Everything will be okay if we can just move past this. I told her what I learned on SI that helped me and what could even help her. I bought books for her to read. I read everything and she read nothing. We are getting divorced.

Your WH is doing the same thing. He thinks he knows what's best and how to handle this but he is clueless and won't even equip himself with the proper tools to even try to fix himself and the mess he made. How can he understand what you are going through when he has no point of reference other than what he has known his entire life. Well that won't cut it in this situation. What he has known has led him down the path to the A in the first place and those same broken or nonexistant coping skills that allowed him to have an A are still in place now as he tries to deal with the aftermath. It won't work. When you or your child falls and breaks their arm you don't put a bandaid on it because it's bleeding and say it's better now, stop crying. The bandaid made the booboo go away and you are better now right? Nope, you seek out help from a Doctor, a trained person in fixing broken bones.

In this case people, books, the internet all provide tools that can help him understand what he has done and how to work on himself. However he has to make an effort to equip himself with the tools to fix himself and allow you to rebuild a new M. If he can't recognize that then you are in for a very long battle that you honestly can't win. This is how many of us end up in false R. If they don't know how to fix themselves they can only keep up the charade for so long before it comes tumbling down again. He isn't "owning his shit" so he looks remorseful but he is still very much unremorseful.

Please be careful and focus on your own healing because your WH does not get it.

[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 9:19 AM, June 27th (Thursday)]

^^^^Yep. What 'he' said.

Your WH's attitude reminds me SO much of Sultan's.

IMO, if you aren't prepared to sweep all of this under the rug, pretend that his A never happened, and blindly trust him again (even though, based on what you've written, there WILL be more cheating in your future)......then you should seriously consider divorcing him sooner rather than later.

I do not see ONE IOTA of any type of 'productive' conversation. None. There were SO many things *wrong* in that conversation that you posted that I wouldn't even know where to begin to point them all out.

He is NOT acting like a true partner to you. He acts like he's got this all figured out......

[This message edited by gonnabe2016 at 9:43 AM, June 27th (Thursday)]

He may be transparent and he probably regrets what he did, but he is not remorseful. A remorseful WS understands on a visceral level the devastation the A caused. A remorseful WS would NEVER tell you to just get over it, especially this early in the aftermath.

You have the cheater version of a dry drunk; he has stopped cheating, but he has not changed his character. Pay attention to this: he is telling you how you should feel; he is not understanding how you feel.

In the grand scheme of things, your interpretation of his A may be out of proportion to it's meaning to him, but that should not be his focus. He has proved to you in the worst way that he cannot be trusted; he needs to focus on winning back your trust, not demanding it.

What SadinAZ said - do you look back at other times in your life and think about times he's minimized how you feel?

My H has done that for at least 10 years so it isn't even just with the A so I'll be handling things a bit differently.

It could just be he doesn't understand - does he WANT to understand? That is where my M blew up.

Print this out & have him read it.

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=324250&HL=25460

He's using anger to bully you away from questioning him.

whadda punk.