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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Betrayed Men - Part 11
thinkingclear
♂ Member
Member # 38884
Default  Posted: 7:52 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks for all of your thoughts. There are several different things going on here in terms of my anger. All of your replies have been helpful.
Maybe forgiveness is also a core value of yours. And preserving an intact home for your children is another. And right now those values are in conflict with the no-tolerance-for-infidelity core value. Hence the (understandable) angst.

Sal said it well with one word: angst. (Good word. I need to work that into a conversation today.) I am angry at so many different things right now and many of them are directly competing against one another. Angst describes it pretty darn well.
TC, for me the anger subsided somewhat when I realized that in no way shape or form would there be "justice" for what had happened. There just isn't any justice for the BS. There is no way we can ever get even, ever. What we wanted more than anything was to stay married to a faithful spouse. Nothing gets that back or makes it right again. Now you just have what you have and that's it.

Another good word is acceptance. I think I have accepted that I will never have the M that I had wanted. I have accepted I have a broken and remorse-deficient WW. I have even accepted that I will never 'be even' and my anger will not change anything. I can't say my anger is consuming me or interfering with my other relationships, in fact I think quite the opposite. It has been easier for me to appreciate the good aspects of all of my other relationships. My anger is directed squarely with my WW and in part myself. But I guess there is yet another level of acceptance that I have yet to reach.

I like the idea about writing things down. That is partly why I post because it forces me to think through my thoughts. You guys feeling used?

I have seen a theory, and it sort of makes sense, that for many people (I believe the rational ones) anger doesn't really set in until it is safe to do so, when there are no bad consequences to the anger. This usually means that R is well underway, or that one has given up either hope or desire for R. During limbo, or until a strong desire for R is demonstrated by the WS, the anger is held in and not really felt.

This has been quite true for me. I spent the better part of a year trying to suppress my anger and pain in fear that it would 'change the outcome'. It didn't feel safe to voice my concerns or feelings. I don't really think that I now feel any 'safer' to display my emotions, but I certainly feel free to do so. Liberated is more like it. This stuff sucks. We have a right to be angry. I finally don't care what my anger or pain does to my WW. I wish I would have felt that way all along. It would have been a lot healthier for both of us. Yes, it might have 'scared' her away which actually might have been a good thing. I made it easy for her to be unremorseful and weakly committed. I believe more anger would have helped to 'weed out' the pretenders and the WW's not made for or capable of a true R.

[This message edited by thinkingclear at 8:02 AM, July 9th (Tuesday)]


BS - Me
WW - Her
10 month EA/PA

Posts: 211 | Registered: Apr 2013
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 7:58 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Oh come on wal, clearly she just tracked her reader demographics before she wrote the sequel, and realized she had to change the tone. It is obvious that she is not sick of her own whining bullshit, rationalizations and lies.

Hey, I'm supposed to be the jaded misanthrope around here. Quit stealing my schtick.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:04 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Unrelated: the Google ad at the top of the forum is recommending the Alien Anthology on Blu-Ray to me this morning.

Might just be the most accurate ad in context I've ever seen on this site.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 8:53 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hey, I'm supposed to be the jaded misanthrope around here. Quit stealing my schtick.
Sorry wal, I will always remember you as the angry old man.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 9:02 AM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, but I look good for my age.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Sal1995
♂ Member
Member # 39099
Default  Posted: 4:10 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I spent the better part of a year trying to suppress my anger and pain in fear that it would 'change the outcome'. It didn't feel safe to voice my concerns or feelings.

TC, I've read so many similar stories on this site - from BM and others - and think that this must be the norm. For some reason my experience has been different. I raged early and often, and expressing my feelings has not been a problem (as my WW would attest). And when she started to push back, I'd tell her that she was free to pull the plug anytime she thought this was too much for her to take. I practically dared her to call it quits, it would let me off the hook and save me months or years of trying to R with someone who could blow up our marriage like this.

Rather than do damage, I think this has helped us accelerate our healing. Emotions were expressed so often and so intensely, that not quite 5 months in and it feels like there's not much left to express. It's all on the table. That and MC/IC from week 1 have been tremendously helpful.

Her affair was the ultimate act of disrespect, but now she sees me as a take-no-shit alpha male. Which I kind of thought I was all along. Just not towards her, I guess. Didn't think I had to be. But according to her "my eyes have been opened," so we'll see.

I think wonderboy, who is much further along than me, has a similar story. He took a take-no-shit approach with a WW who was not that remorseful at first and got R on track pretty early. If I recall his bio accurately, he pretty much considered his marriage fully reconciled only about a year post D Day.

Just my unprofessional two cents, but this is toxic stuff that we're dealing with. Suppressing emotions and not fully communicating are R and healing killers. Get it out. Call her to the carpet for the pain and destruction she has wrought. Make her go to MC/IC, get STD tested, become an open book, change jobs, whatever it takes. Hold her accountable for the affair. Then hold yourself accountable for the ways that you weren't the greatest husband in the world pre-A, and work to be a better husband in the future (if R is your goal). NOT because you take even an ounce of blame for your wife's horrific choices, but because mediocrity - from you or her - is no longer acceptable.

ETA: "I don't really think that I now feel any 'safer' to display my emotions, but I certainly feel free to do so. Liberated is more like it."

TC, I should have added this part of your comments for the full context. It is liberating, huh? Congrats man, it's the only way to deal with this stuff. As for the safety part, it never entered my mind. "Screw her" was my attitude in the first couple of months, if anything it's not "safe" to be a lying cheater in this marriage. She got my message.

My comments weren't meant for you (as you obviously have it figured out now) but for anyone who finds himself here right after D Day. Don't tap dance around the affair, kick it's ass from the get go. Tackle it head on. If your wife can't handle it, then she simply doesn't want to. She's already gone, it's just a matter of time. You really have nothing to lose.

[This message edited by Sal1995 at 4:28 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]


Me-45
WW-42
DDay 2/17/13, 10 month PA/EA
Final NC late Feb. '13
M - 18 years, together 19+
4 children

Reconciled


Posts: 1035 | Registered: Apr 2013 | From: Texas
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 4:19 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Yeah, but I look good for my age.

Now you are stealing Wonderboy's (aka Good Looking) schtick...

And I see poor JJCT is still MIA...anyone look in NB for him lately? Once they "fill your eyes" the Menz thread can be a bit harsh on the vision.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 4:22 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

During limbo, or until a strong desire for R is demonstrated by the WS, the anger is held in and not really felt.

Aesir, THAT^^^ is not theory-it is fact!!!


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 4:27 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Once they "fill your eyes" the Menz thread can be a bit harsh on the vision.

And speaking of stealing things, I'm swiping this line for my next anniversary/birthday/whatever card, so the rest of you are SOL.


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
DefiledRage
♂ Member
Member # 39292
Default  Posted: 6:57 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

5 days of being completely off the grid. Felt like someone pulled the plug on my connection to the borg collective. Started getting jittery.

Then I read this:

I feel like I'm gas lighting myself. I'm the biggest ally she has....for better or worse she had her reasons all lined up. She was prepared to get caught and was so narcissic she probably thought she could blame shift out of it.

And I'm like thank god, company that understands me right now. Being stuck around those "normals" out there can be lonely sometimes.

Hoping someday to find enough peace to be a "normal" again.

[This message edited by DefiledRage at 6:58 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]


Me:35 WW:34 M:13yrs
3 young children
Dday 1 EA 7/8/2010
Dday 2 PA 3/1/2013 same OMM for 4yrs

Mister rabbit says, "A moment of realization is worth a thousand prayers."


Posts: 427 | Registered: May 2013 | From: Two blocks from south shit and west hell
MC_Jack
♂ Member
Member # 35016
Default  Posted: 10:53 PM, July 9th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

about that book, "Women's Infidelity"...

I am going to rescue the author, Michelle L., a bit here.

See, she did a very good job assembling the stories and narratives that comprise WW101, hell right up to WW401, the advanced course. So as far as observations go, I give Ms. Langley a good review.

But unfortunately, as others have posted, the book is not about recovery or fixing crappy behavior. I think it is that way by intention: she wanted a sort of 'anthropological' study. The female equivalent of 'boys will be boys'....perhaps then the theme of the book should be: 'the girl can't help it'. So do not look there for any rational conclusions.

I found a book review article online which accepted the many observations as true and provided the proper overlay of rational judgement. He concluded that all men should read this book as a warning prior to marriage, not how to fix one. Plus humorous commentary about how pathological some of the behavior is. If anyone is interested in the link let me know. My WW read it and agreed with Ms. Langley's descriptions and the reviewer's moral outrage.

Now back to suppress whatever I am suppressing. Or need to.

Jack

[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:54 PM, July 9th (Tuesday)]


I am not a marriage counselor. I chose "MC Jack" in the spirit of a handle like "MC Hammer" or Young MC"...there is a lot of 'rapping' here, no? At the time I did not know what MC stood for on this site. Duh.

Posts: 792 | Registered: Mar 2012 | From: West Coast of Hopa-hopa-land
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 12:27 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't believe the "thousands of anonymous interviews" took place.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 3:33 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I just don't believe the "thousands of anonymous interviews" took place.

Me neither, I think that line is an obvious Internet trick to get people to "buy this, it's great for you" and usually smells, looks and tastes like snake oil. Call me jaded but if someone is using this kind stuff on their front page, it already rings alarm bells. Hers were one of the first books I read after DDay and as a help or guide it was entirely useless. It's absolutely toxic if you've been recently betrayed because it takes away a lot of blame from blameworthy behaviour, definitely detrimental to remorse or any semblance of working on recovery.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
aesir
♂ Member
Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 4:43 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think that line is an obvious Internet trick to get people to "buy this, it's great for you" and usually smells, looks and tastes like snake oil. Call me jaded but if someone is using this kind stuff on their front page, it already rings alarm bells.

There have been a few trolls here that I believed were going to site the SI membership as their thousands of anonymous interviews.

The other alarm bell, having read it, is that all of the alleged quotes, the narratives, everything coming from her case studies, all seemed to carry the same tone, the same language patterns, the same rhythm, as the authors own writing. Much like a famous author and researcher whose respondents to a questionnaire all spoke like graduate student sociologists. Many have called that authors work journalism masquerading as science. I would categorize this book as fiction masquerading as journalism.

Her claim of thousands of interviews over ten years of research, well lets be conservative in our definition of that and say a minimum of two thousand is required to meet that. That is 200 unique anonymous interviews a year. That is four per week, with two weeks off per year, or a unique new interview every school day of the year, for a decade. Where would one find that many people willing to openly discuss cheating with a stranger with no credentials, no organization backing them, nothing to prove that they aren't a PI hired by their spouses secret divorce attorney?

Now quoting from my celebricrush Fionna Glenanne

Well, in my experience, if something is too good to be true, it's best to shoot it. Just in case.

[This message edited by aesir at 4:55 AM, July 10th (Wednesday)]


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
noescape
♂ Member
Member # 34888
Default  Posted: 6:24 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

There have been a few trolls here that I believed were going to site the SI membership as their thousands of anonymous interviews.

I was going to state something along these lines but decided its best not to go too far down the critique trail. Waste of time. Better to collate all of WALs quotes and publish it as the "go to" guide for every BH out there.


Posts: 739 | Registered: Feb 2012
wincing_at_light
♂ Member
Member # 14393
Default  Posted: 8:15 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I don't want to give the impression that I'm recommending Langley's books in any sort of blanket way. They were useful for *me* for what they were: fucked up, entitled, selfish people explaining that they're fucked up, entitled, and selfish in their own words...while trying to manipulate their husbands into taking the blame for it.

For me, that slots into the category of "If I understand how your dumbass mind works and that it's common for people of your dumbass mind ilk to think this way and justify this way, then I can understand that the shit coming out of your mouth doesn't have to be examined any more closely than recognizing it as idiot-spew from your dumbass mind."

As a corollary, I do highly recommend my internationally acclaimed and best-selling web relationship programme series Delusional Bitch is Delusional when one is tempted to start thinking about the overflow of your WW's dumbass mind when she tries to blameshift, point out your faults, tell you all the ways you failed the marriage and made her vulnerable, etc.

I have to re-read it myself anytime I'm on the web and see a WW carping about all the things her husband needs to do to make her marriage better and make her feel more loved/safe/secure/happy/self-esteemy/wanted/pretty/useful/valuable/not-an-idiot. Otherwise, my natural reaction tends to be something like "Honey, you've already shown him what makes marriage a happy place for you: some strange guy's dick in your mouth. Maybe it's time to consider that you're not the best candidate for picking what-makes-a-healthy-happy-relationship methods, eh?"

[This message edited by wincing_at_light at 8:55 AM, July 10th (Wednesday)]


Machiavellian idiot savant

Posts: 6690 | Registered: Apr 2007 | From: Indiana
Twitchy
♂ Member
Member # 25393
Default  Posted: 8:58 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

With reference to anger:

Rather than do damage, I think this has helped us accelerate our healing.

I agree with this. It's wan't until I found my anger, and gave my FWW a testosterone fueled dose of rage and pain, that she fully understood the pain she had caused and the stakes of the game she was playing.

Until the actual shit hit the actual fan and splatted all over her, she was able to keep hold of her delusional thinking.

Afterward, it was like:

[This message edited by Twitchy at 9:00 AM, July 10th (Wednesday)]


BH(me)-47, FWW-41,
D-Day #1 - Oct 2007 - On-Line EA leading to a failed rendez-vous
D-Day #2 - Nov 2008 - In person EA caught early.

Dies irae. Dies illa solvet saeclum in favilla.


Posts: 575 | Registered: Sep 2009 | From: Ontario - Canada
Tred
♂ Member
Member # 34086
Default  Posted: 9:05 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

WWS: I've seen 1000 anonymous reviews of Delusional Bitch is Delusional that all say WWS.


Married: 16 years (14 @JFO)
D-Day: 11/09/11
"Ohhhhh...shut up Tred!" - NOT the official SI motto (DS)

Posts: 3305 | Registered: Dec 2011
stilllovingher
♂ Member
Member # 29959
Default  Posted: 9:38 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage



The only difference between a butt kisser and a brown noser is depth perception.
I'm sure WAL would agree.

Posts: 2385 | Registered: Oct 2010 | From: still BFE, but now BFE, CA
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 9:46 AM, July 10th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Damn it, SLH, how'd you get ahold of my personal journal?


“Anyone who has a continuous smile on his face conceals a toughness that is almost frightening.”

Posts: 1616 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: Illinois
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