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The Book Club Post Reply     Print Topic    
User Topic: Not just friends
aesir
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Member # 17210
Default  Posted: 3:28 AM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Also, the AP's portrayed in the book are stable and fairly emotionally healthy. In my experience, people who will betray their spouse are usually seriously messed-up. Personality disorders, mental illness, history of sexual abuse, history of child abuse, addictions--I see that a lot and I don't remember the book addressing those issues.

I noticed this too. I think the author tried to present the people as "normal" as possible, to show that anyone can have an affair, that it's a hurtful choice but not bad people involved. However, as a result, I don't think she went enough into the poor coping skills a wayward uses, and how an affair is one of those poor coping skills.

I think one of the reasons for focusing so much on people who are "stable and fairly emotionally healthy" is the difficulty of gather data among the unstable and unhealthy. Each personality disorder, mental illness,traumatic history type, etc. would need to be disclosed prior to the study, and would require it's own particular study. Dealing with these, the book might well resemble my old Encyclopedia Britannica set, or at it's present size would have a very limited market if titled things like "Affairs of a left handed NPD plumber with PTSD from CSA: Volume 4: Hiring sex industry workers.".

I think stable and healthy people make bad decisions mostly for the same reason unstable and unhealthy people make them. The difficulty with the unhealthy and unstable ones is more in the developing proper boundaries and coping skills when that concept may not be as familiar to them from other aspects of their life.


Your mileage may vary... in accordance with the prophecy.

Do not back up. Severe tire damage.


Posts: 14924 | Registered: Nov 2007 | From: Winnipeg
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 3:51 AM, September 29th (Sunday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it contains the seeds of an idea regarding how people repress themselves within a marriage, either to avoid inimacy, or to protect themselves from disapproval by their partner.

I agree, Æsir. This would be the next question that would lead to more digging and personal growth, especially examining things specifically like issues with intimacy stemming from FOO etc, beliefs about disapproval... I would have to reread to see if she ever went into this explicitly. Or I could be hyperaware because of the good questions here on SI. But that would be the next question: then what's standing in the way of being that way in the M?

I think stable and healthy people make bad decisions mostly for the same reason unstable and unhealthy people make them. The difficulty with the unhealthy and unstable ones is more in the developing proper boundaries and coping skills when that concept may not be as familiar to them from other aspects of their life.

Very true. To go into the mental illnesses that can accompany people in the study, would definitely be a separate study - if for no other reason than there are so many different mental illnesses out there! And also, while illness can complicate things for sure, there are more similarities when it comes to making poor choices than differences between "ill" and "not ill" people. Illness can set a vulnerability, like you said especially if it means that a person is lacking certain tools because of it, whether from learning difficulty or a lack of access to said tools, but it still comes down to choices.

ETA:


She does somewhat go into individual factors in one of her chapters. I don't know... Something about the way she writes... Can't put my finger on it. It almost feels like she doesn't acknowledge what a marriage really loses in an A. She writes: "In the immediate days and weeks that follow, the betrayed partner, the unfaithful partner, and the affair partner are overwhelmed by their enormous losses. The injured partner has lost the positive image of his or her life parter and the assurance of a secure, committed relationship. The involved partner has lost his or her secret love nest and faces the potential loss of marriage and family. The affair partner has lost the romantic cocoon and, usually, the dream of living forever with the lover." (p 88) That would tell me that the "injured partner" or "marriage" has lost security, but that only the WS and AP have lost a *relationship*. Somehow, her writing seems to validate an affair more than a marriage. She also writes: "If you're the unfaithful partner, you know that having an affair is both agony and ecstasy. It may have been the more exciting and meaningful thing that has ever happened to you." (pg 92) Or maybe I'm upset because Dr. Glass might be right that it's that way for some folks, but it hurts that it can invalidate the marriage so much. Shouldn't your marriage be the most exciting and meaningful thing that has ever happened to you? At least more than the affair?

Anyway, sorry to keep beating this point. This is why I like "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" (MacDonald) and "Shattered Vows" (Laaser) better.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 2:07 AM, August 20th (Wednesday)]


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 6:35 PM, September 30th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I remember one thing that stuck out for me while I read it (about 8 months ago) was that they followed the story of a WH, his BW, and the MOW. I think they may have even had a BH/WW combo in the mix as well....but IIRC, they followed the female AP (Lara) after the affair came to light, showing what feelings she experienced and whatnot, and how she went on in her life, generally...but in the BH/WW combo, I don't recall them explaining how the male AP dealt with the aftermath...I just felt it was interesting in it's exclusion. Down in the BM thread, we talk frequently about the differences and similarities with being a BM, and I don't know that this book really spoke to that as much. I still thought it was generally pretty helpful, especially in the first few weeks after DDAY.

I just wanted to second the idea that the author spends too much time focusing on 'protecting' the marriage, and not enough time on the effed up individuals therein. I still think all the wall/windows and the other affair-proofing stuff is really, really good....AFTER the spouses have had significant IC and are coming to the table as safe, healthy partners.

[This message edited by FacePunched at 6:38 PM, September 30th (Monday)]


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2164 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
silverhopes
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Member # 32753
Default  Posted: 10:57 PM, October 5th (Saturday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

in the BH/WW combo, I don't recall them explaining how the male AP dealt with the aftermath...

That's a good point. The book talks about a SOW's journey but not a SOM. The author says it's because the unmarried woman is the most common AP, but that misses a very big audience.


Find peace. Or sleep on it.
Sometimes my monkeys, sometimes my circus.
Infidelities are like icebergs - they may take many different shapes and sizes, but they all damage your ship.

Posts: 3905 | Registered: Jul 2011 | From: California
MartlArts
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Member # 36130
Default  Posted: 4:12 PM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I found NJF about 6 months post d-day. (Didn't find SI until about 2 yr later.) I found it VERY helpful. One of the things that helped was the validation of my reactions. Descriptions in the book of BS feelings/behavior post d-day, such as obsessively looking at the calendar and matching dates/activities were SPOT ON for me. That gave me comfort to realize that I was 'normal'. I also found some help in the section about dealing with flashbacks/triggers. And I highlighted paragraphs about the dangers of reconnecting with old flames for my H to read. That helped him understand the issues also.


excerpt from an awesome quote "Forgiveness - the finishing of old business that allows us to experience the present, free of contamination from the past."

Posts: 1003 | Registered: Jul 2012
sailorgirl
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Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 10:01 PM, November 13th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I think stable and healthy people make bad decisions mostly for the same reason unstable and unhealthy people make them.

I think stable, emotionally intelligent people with healthy coping skills rarely make terrible decisions. Seriously messed-up people, on the other hand, are capable of actions that the rest of us can't imagine. (Note: most of the XWS's from SI's Divorce/Separation Board.)

Maybe Shirley Glass figured that the BS's who were married to those type of people would not try to reconcile and wouldn't need her book.

I'm not saying that NJF should have detailed every mental illness that might contribute to an affair. I just think the book should acknowledge that affairs are not always between two nice, normal, balanced people who shouldn't have opened their windows.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
Ascendant
♂ Member
Member # 38303
Default  Posted: 10:55 AM, November 25th (Monday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Maybe Shirley Glass figured that the BS's who were married to those type of people would not try to reconcile and wouldn't need her book.
Hadn't considered this. Great point.

I'm not saying that NJF should have detailed every mental illness that might contribute to an affair. I just think the book should acknowledge that affairs are not always between two nice, normal, balanced people who shouldn't have opened their windows.
Right. I think we can recognize that it's not possible to catalog every instance of fuckupittude....but it would have been nice for the author to point out the REASONS why the WS opened the windows...and why the BS didn't, despite probably having similar possibilities.

Another thing that I think she really nailed was that the WS begins to view the marriage negatively and re-write history AS A RESULT of comparisons to the A, not prior to it. I think this is a huge stumbling block that many WSes never get past...they have convinced themselves so thoroughly that they can't imagine that they were....well....imagining it.


I keep my mind on my future/and my eyes on the sky/I don't really smile much/If you were there you'd know why.

Posts: 2164 | Registered: Jan 2013 | From: City in the Midwest/Best In The Whole Wide World
HardenMyHeart
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Member # 15902
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Begin t/j
it's not possible to catalog every instance of fuckupittude

FacePunched, this really cracked me up. Thanks for the good laugh.

End t/j


Me: BH, Her: FWW - Long Term EA/PA
d-day: June 25, 2007
Married 30 years, Reconciled

Inner peace begins the moment you choose not to allow another person or event to control your emotions.


Posts: 5695 | Registered: Aug 2007
MammaMia
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Member # 34030
Default  Posted: 1:33 PM, November 26th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Both WS and I read the book. It was emotionally draining for him ( " this is serious stuff" as he put it) and he could only read a few pages at a time. I had highlighted many comments on the book; esp. what applied to us. I wanted him to see what he had done to the marriage and to me personally.

I love the book. IMO it is the " Bible" of infidelity.


And once the storm is over, you won’t remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive.But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm, you won’t be the same person who walked in. That’s what this storm’s all about.”

Posts: 874 | Registered: Nov 2011 | From: Somewhere in the South
sailorgirl
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Member # 38162
Default  Posted: 9:02 PM, November 27th (Wednesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Another thing that I think she really nailed was that the WS begins to view the marriage negatively and re-write history AS A RESULT of comparisons to the A, not prior to it. I think this is a huge stumbling block that many WSes never get past...they have convinced themselves so thoroughly that they can't imagine that they were....well....imagining it.

So true. They begin to see the marriage and spouse negatively because they are cheating.


Married 14 years, three amazing kids
H had 17 month EA/PA
D-day 1/5/13
Reconcilling

Posts: 787 | Registered: Jan 2013
GotPlayed
♂ Member
Member # 41294
Default  Posted: 4:59 PM, December 12th (Thursday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I absolutely loved it. My WS hated it. It caused a lot of fights. Mainly she objected to the guilt-based terminology she standardized on. "scarlet letter" she called it.

She seems to be a bit more ok with "After the Affair", which goes through all the similar topics but uses non-judgemental terminology. Though we haven't talked about it, she *is* reading it.

Then again, she said "I'm only reading *my* parts". Sweetie. No wonder we're on our way to S - now I may never know what she thought of the book, because I'm already NCing her.


Master of my Fate, Captain of my Soul.
BS 42, WW 41. 18y married
DD: 11/5/13
DS10 Autism, DD8
OM: Reformed wife-beater ex-con
D filed 1/14/14 by WW (never warn them, they'll get ahead)
Married a powder keg

Posts: 755 | Registered: Nov 2013 | From: California
cannibal
♂ Member
Member # 40560
Default  Posted: 3:35 AM, January 16th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Me and my fwso read through this together and it really did wonders for us. We have talked about rereading it but haven't yet. We are currently looking for a new book. Preferably something with more relationship building activities.


Me: BF 35 Her: FWF 35 dss: 17
D-day: 06/06/04. Ons
D-day: 02/28/13. length of A: 4+ months
Seperation after dday
Moved back in 6/20/13
Broke n/c: 07/24/13
Together since: 02/05/02

Posts: 95 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From: cannibal
Coachdig10
♂ Member
Member # 41706
Default  Posted: 7:44 PM, January 17th (Friday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Great book so far. Wished I would have read it before the A happened. I think it will be good for my WW as well.


BS- 42
WS- 36
Married 16
Kids- 3
DDay 1/17/13

Posts: 52 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: California
dmg35
♂ New Member
Member # 41552
Default  Posted: 12:02 AM, January 27th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just bought the book and can't wait to start reading it. Thanks for the recommendation

Posts: 34 | Registered: Dec 2013 | From: north east
Trying2Survive1
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Member # 40022
Default  Posted: 1:16 PM, January 27th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I thought it has a lot of insight. Answered many questions that were going though my mind after dday.


Madhatters, M 31 yrs
FWW/BS 57-BS/FWH 56
Separated 5 mos in 07.His DDay,11/07.False R since 07. My DDay,7/5/13."Once you are real you can't become unreal again. It lasts for always.”
― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Posts: 129 | Registered: Jul 2013 | From: United States
MFC2011
♀ Member
Member # 34856
Default  Posted: 2:06 PM, January 27th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I loved this book. If I could only have one infidelity book, this would be it, hands down.


Dday#1: 12/25/11, Dday#2: 3/28/12, 4+ OW
It's in the stars
It's been written in the scars on our hearts
That we're not broken just bent
And we can learn to love again
-Pink, "Just Give Me A Reason"

Posts: 795 | Registered: Feb 2012 | From: USA
BAB61
♀ Member
Member # 41181
Default  Posted: 5:16 PM, January 27th (Monday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I bought this book for STBX right after DDay #1, and he started reading it. He never read through the whole thing, as DDay #2 happened and I kicked him out. He left behind all the books, as if to say ... well I don't need to improve now. smh loser!

I have yet to read this, since I'm still reeling ... I think it will be good to read before I start dating. Which will be well after the D is final (sometime in Jun/Jul 2014).


Boss A** B*tch
BS/52 Me, STBXpos/56, dd's 16&14
1st D-day 10/19/2013 EA/PA
2nd D-day 12/7/2013 LTA/Rendezvous
S 12/7/2013 No-fault state, 6 mo S, counting down the days.

Posts: 1271 | Registered: Oct 2013 | From: DE
MomtoRoses
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Member # 42271
Default  Posted: 10:03 PM, January 30th (Thursday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I liked the book and my wh has had anonymous partners as well as emotional affairs.

I wish someone would write an updated version w/ facebook, texting, cell phones etc. I think these things change the dynamics of cheating. It's so hard.

I liked the book and most libraries have it, unlike other books that I have to buy from the internet.


i'm the bs
he is the wh.
7 ddays: affairs, online activities, ea, pa, longterm pa,longterm ea, one night stands.
I'm the last to know.

Posts: 85 | Registered: Jan 2014
twisted
♂ Member
Member # 8873
Default  Posted: 4:32 PM, February 25th (Tuesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it's not possible to catalog every instance of fuckupittude


...yes,..yes, that was the word I was looking for!


"Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?

Posts: 907 | Registered: Nov 2005 | From: Oklahoma
danegrl
♀ New Member
Member # 42591
Default  Posted: 10:05 AM, February 26th (Wednesday), 2014View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

This was my first read after years of dealing, but not beginning to heal. I was and still feel like it was written to me. A remorseful spouse would make this an easier read I must say, as it helped me identify or figure out what may have transpired. But mostly it let me realize I was not acting unreasonable and psychotic as i thought. that my needs and my actions as a betrayed spouse were actually quite the norm. I don't have anyone I ever told all the details to so bearing it alone, this book helped me immensely!!
quick note:
Kindle version worked great, I didn't have to fan it out for the world to see, i read it while sitting on the sofa with my teenage kids and husband as well. Very good book to start with.


"I can only be the best me I know how, if that isn't enough for you than you should move on."

Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2014 | From: Mid west
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