I don't know if this would help some of you or not, but one thing that did work for us was to read some of the books together. It helped him see the pain I was in to hear it expressed by another person. I'm sure DECEIVED was one of them...
[This message edited by scaredyKat at 11:17 PM, August 18th (Sunday)]
I like the surveillance idea too. That was why I wanted to get feedback first before I approach him about the money, so that I am able to catch him while he is still doing it rather than giving him a heads-up that I am on to him, thus allowing him to take it underground. I just want to know the truth - such simple words, so difficult to achieve with an SA. We still haven't answered the question "is there anything other than porn going on here?" and there is enough suspicion (the way he would have sex with me like I was a blow up doll and like I wasn't even there, the money - about $1000/mo - unaccounted for, lots of opportunities with travel for work and "working late,") that I want to know.
How possible do you think that he would pass the polygraph while lying? I know that a few SAs on here have failed their polygraphs, so I know it is possible for these excellent liars to fail a polygraph.
Should I spend a bunch of money on surveillance (I have surveilled him for a while and never came up with anything - it is really difficult to catch someone, unless you have a PI on them all day long, and even then, you have to pick the right day)?
I have an IC appt tomorrow and I will meet with my L next week, so I will discuss this with them as well.
Thanks so much for your very calm, focused, and excellent advice! I'm so blessed to be a part of this group - your support is invaluable! Muwah!
Edited for clarity.
[This message edited by numbandnauseous at 12:08 AM, August 19th (Monday)]
I think you need to layout clearly that financial transparency is essential to keep you in the M. Then you have to say what that looks like. There should be no excuses on his part on not knowing what you mean by that. Tell him business expenses and misc need to be more specific.
His behavior looks like he is still not accepting your conditions. I would suggest not going Ape Shit on him. My WH uses my anger as an excuse. " see I'm doing everything she asks, IC, staying out of house, MC putting my check in and she is still angry". He recently pulled his check out and says he has to move out from his mothers and will put check in when I let him move in for in house separation. I'm holding firm and staying calm. This calm is new for me with him. It is driving him nuts. He no longer can paint me as angry and irrational. But his bullying is escalating
Stay assertive and set your boundaries but you may need to move to the next level with D. He seems to continue to be manipulative. Don't let him rattle you. Channel the anger productively.
N & N hugs to you. He is still lying, and probably still using. Check my time line for how long it took for the truth to come out. He hasn't hit bottom and may not until he knows you are serious about pulling the plug. And you have to be. Living with an active SA will kill you.
[This message edited by scaredyKat at 8:58 AM, August 19th (Monday)]
I have had a lot of counseling sessions, both IC and MC and reading all my books for homework...and I feel like I have turned a corner. The IC seems to be helping me the most. At this point right now (and I say that with a grain a salt because recovery truly is hour by hour) I am not tracking his every movement...checking his phone...or re-reading any sexts. I haven't in over a week and it feels so liberating! I am working on me and he is working on him and if he screws up - then so be it! I will be hurt beyond belief...but I will be ok. This week is our anniversary and we are going away for the weekend just the two of us. I am actually looking forward to it! We have done alot of talking over the past week with me out of town and he has opened up about his fears and feelings in a way that he never did before - it's made for some interesting and productive conversations.
Welcome to all the new people - I'm trying to get caught up on who's who and I need to go back and re-read alot because there are so many! Sad and wonderful thing at the same time.
Still feels sad that, since I am unlikely to live another 37 years, I won't have 40 years of authentic marriage.
Numb, if you or he cannot account for $1000 a month, there is a serious problem of some kind and he is likely using. SAWH was SO good at this shell game...I need cash for valet, I paid my share of lunch out with cash, I had to contribute $50 to coworker's baby shower gift, etc. But when you put pencil to paper (or use Mint, whatevs) and MAKE him itemize it all...those excuses only go so far.
As for surveillance, I never went the PI route so IDK about that. It can be very helpful to use a PI if you need evidence for D, or if you want to find out what he really does on business trips. I found keylogger and VAR in the car most helpful. Many SAs just do the secret phone and use it in the car for planning purposes. However if they are doing all their planning online on a computer you can't access (work computer, secret laptop or tablet, or secret smartphone) you won't catch much. A VAR in the suitcase would be good too, but it would be hard to hide and might not pick up much.
As for polys, yeah mine failed his. I was sure he'd find a way to pass even if he wasn't fully truthful. But I guess he couldn't. He's got a lot of truth issues, in addition to the whole messed up garden variety SA stuff, his family is from a very corrupt 3rd world country so lying is a way of life for them so he has those issues too. The thing about polys is that you really have to have someone that is very reputable to do it. The guy that did ours worked for the county doing it for decades, with sex offenders etc, and now gets most of his freelance work from the SA center we use. So I feel really confident about the results because he is familiar with working with SAs, with sex offenders, with criminally insane people. IDK if someone with only a few years of experience, or did mostly white collar crime type stuff, etc would work well for SA polys because the key is asking the right questions, and you need to be familiar with the subject matter to ask them correctly.
The time we have put in to our marriages is not something that can be dismissed lightly. I come to the place where I feel I'm just done and then I start to remember the blood sweat and tears that made the memories of all those years and I just can't let go. Sometimes, I feel like something is seriously wrong with me that I would even consider rebuilding a life with someone who disrespected me so badly.
Reading "Deceived", the picture is becoming clearer to me that the nature of this beast is day dreaming on steriods. I'm still trying to understand all the underlying fantasy that apparently fuels the fire. I don't know anyone who doesn't fantasize about things. I just can't grasp how a fantasy can become so totally out of control that the SA is willing to sell their souls to the devil in order to remain in it. Sometimes I think the survivors of the SA's behavior are just considered collateral damage.
Authenticity is a sobering thought. I'm still trying to figure out if there ever really was any in my life with my H. But, I do know that whatever life I have left will be focused on having it from now on!
Hope lots of Light is shining on everyone today!
Well, since I left he's contacted his Ex-W/OW, had hours long conversations with MIL (who is still friends with OW), re-activated and become active on his FB, and had a very late night (for him) text exchange with an unknown number.
On the plus side, we did have a REALLY good conversation the other day and I think we both went away with a feeling that there might still be hope for us.
But in the cold harsh light of day, I realize that he probably isn't going to follow through. And even if he did, I'm not sure how much good it would do. There are NO CSAT's on this island and NO SA meetings. How much recovery can we hope for with NO professional help?
And the whole family dynamic is still so fucked up. MIL and SIL still friends with OW. MIL is still happily passing on info on OW life to WH. Pretending like she wants to be close to me, but can't figure out how to unblock me on FB. I must have done something on MY end, because she just cannot figure it out! Umm, you click the "UNBLOCK" button. How fucking hard is that? And if you can't figure out how to get to the button, why don't you Google it? Or ASK someone to help you.
Nope. She doesn't want to be friends with me. I'm fairly certain their 2 hour phone conversation yesterday was her subtly encouraging him to stay away from me. I'm sure she was gently reminding him of how miserable he's been. And gently twisting it to remind him that I am the cause of all of this.
Of course, NO ONE knows about his CL activity except me. They just think I went bat shit crazy because he had a little reunion with his Ex.
*sigh* I need to detach. I need to stop caring. I need to stop hoping that we can work things out. That he can become healthy. That WE can become healthy. Because the fact is that even if that DID somehow manage to occur, there is still the issue of his fucked up family.
Thanks for reading. I really hate that I am here. That we are ALL here.
Do you have access to AA meetings? Counselors trained to deal with addiction? SA meetings are very much like AA only sex is substituted for alcohol. The biggy here is his motivation & only you two know where that stands.
I have no words of wisdom. Only the shared pain that no one other than someone who is in the same situation can comprehend.
Now that you are separated you need to detach. So much time is spent on THEM and their recovery. Try to focus on YOU more. They focus enough for both of us on THEM.
CCC. You did not cause this, you can not control this, you can not cure this. Once you detach, you will find out how much more time and energy you have for other things in your life. You will heal in wonderful ways, once you begin to keep the focus sharply on you.
When the fear of what I am about to do, D, grips me, I imagine the worst of the worst, how bad it can be; things like no money, I have to sell the house, loneliness, WH angry retaliation etc. then I tell myself I can handle the worst of the worst because I can not R with this broken man.
Once i knew I was done the fear immobilized me. Facing that fear is hard but also empowering. Knowing I can survive the worst is freeing. I'm still in my M and I still have to co parent with this man but I am free of his control and his brokenness. My focus is on my kids and me now.
Cheatermagnet, it's nice to see you around. I know how you feel about the lack of professional help. We do have 12 step, but no CSAT around here. H started meetings on the advice of one good regular therapist. We both feel like we're winging it and hoping for the best. There must be some online meetings your H can do! I know s-anon has online meetings as well.
H and I had a long talk a few nights ago. He admitted he's having a difficult time and that he feels like he is saying goodbye to who he has been. He's totally having an identity crisis right now. He also admitted that he feels too broken to help me with my pain.
He has been doing some things to help me though. We did the paper work for his new benefits and he made it so I still get them even if we divorce.
[This message edited by sadone29 at 8:20 AM, August 20th (Tuesday)]
What turned the tide for us maritally was H's full-force recovery efforts and his being willing to be intimate emotionally and a true partner (at last). On the recovery note I have a question for the old-timers. Did your SAWHs need to shop group therapy or switch groups? My H just started group and he really disliked the therapist leader who talked the entire 1.5 hours and he also felt there were only 2 other people in the group that he had a remote chance of connecting with. H is not a therapist basher and he likes his IC CSAT a lot. I have actually met the group therapy leader (he is the CSAT I went to 1X right after D-day to get info on SA) and I see the problem. Also, the group is going to work through the Carnes workbook from the beginning but that is what H has been doing for five months in IC. Opinions?
[This message edited by cds22 at 12:56 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]
CM - If you are going to divorce, there is no reason you need to keep his secret. He does not need to be enabled. That is my view, I know some will disagree. As far as an f'ed up family, my SAWH's is a nightmare! Fortunately, after he did drug rehab and we got back together I told him I was not having a relationship with his crazy family. That is a boundary for my own sanity! He is free to have whatever relationship he likes, and now in recovery he really doesn't want one.
CDS - Oh, everyone I know that does group uses their IC. If he doesn't gel with the therapist, there is nothing wrong with shopping around. Does his IC have a recommendation?
SK - I love Betrayal Bond. Although PC is a recovered sex addict, that is why so many of his things lean so much more towards the SA than the spouse. His daughter does the spouse work and their approach has come a long way in the last 2 years. Still not my favorite though. I much prefer Milton Magness and Doug Weiss.
UMBL - Sounds like things are moving in a positive direction for you.
NandN - $1,000 a month missing is a huge red flag!!! I like Hath's recommendation. My SAWH did a poly and only failed one question. It was the one question I thought he was lying about (did he take ED medicine with prostitutes). Such a weird question to lie about and say no.
[This message edited by Missymomma at 1:13 PM, August 20th (Tuesday)]