On the other hand, he has known me since we were teenagers. I shouldn't have to tell him I have issues with name calling. I shouldn't have to ask him not to mock me. I shouldn't have to tell him not to lie to me. That's what I meant by basic, common sense, kinda stuff.
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
As I'm writing this, I'm realizing that WH and I put on an outward appearance of respect to one another. We never put one another down, we talked respectfully to one another, no name calling or shouting, were affectionate physically and with words, but his total dishonesty and secret actions were total disrespect.
After dday there were so much disrespectful actions and things he has done, when I look back at it, I don't know how or why I put up with it.
I guess I was so totally traumatized, desperate and broken, plus all past hurts and traumas seemed to come forward (FOO).
DH: You do have to tell your WH what your boundaries are with name calling, mocking and lying. Do not let it go. He is acting like a child and when he calls you names or mocks you, say simply,quietly and calmly, " I am not talking to you like that, so don't talk to me like that. I am a good person and deserve respect as a human being." AND WALK AWAY, quietly. Do it. every. time. Don't engage with him if he keeps it up, don't let him bait you.
I know how hard it is, I know how much it hurts.
But remember you deserve respect. The people at your job see that and gave you a promotion!
I know it hurts that he is doing this.
Your H truly reminds me of my X. We were together since we were teens too - but just the way he reacts to things reminds me of my X.
I think I spent a lot of time trying to sort out my X's seemingly inconsistent post-DDay behavior - saying one thing, but doing another, or promising something, but not following up - generally just not "getting it" and not exerting the level of effort I would expect from someone who wanted to save his M.
The conclusion that made the most sense to me - was that he just didnt care about saving the M enough. Didnt care about me enough.
Once I came to this realization (which inevitably lead to the conclusion that we should s/d), managing his hurtful behavior/comments was so much easier - because his opinions of me really meant nothing to me because I didn't care about him that way anymore either.
Anyway, I hope you find peace soon, this is no way to live.
This is the advice given on SI all the time: Decision to have affair 100% on the WS. After real remorse and working through the traumam THEN MC to fix marital problems.
The only thing that I think about is what about when it's years later and these steps weren't implemented? But I still think that remorse and the willingness to change should be on the WS. Otherwise the bad choice to cheat is likely to happen again when the WS is unhappy for whatever reason, the same as a sober alcoholic who just stops drinking and doesn't address the underlying causes of turning to drinking when they are unhappy/stressed/have problems etc.
Your xWH reminds me so much of my xWH#1. I was talking to DS33 and he was saying he didn't know if he was ready to get married (ironically he's scared to get married because he doesn't want to take a chance it won't work out and he'd D) and we started talking about his father. DS33 said that perhaps his father wasn't ready to get married, needed to grow up and now finally at the age of 58 is ready!!
A lot of FOO with my xWH#1 and a lot of growing up he had to do emotionally. I don't know if he ever did, although he was "responsible" in so many other areas of his life since he was very, very young.
but can we say that the LTA has not exposed our own unhealthiness? What are we doing about it?
*Ramble Mode Activate*
Did I have to do some digging after DDay, sure. Was the LTA the catalyst for that digging, sort of. In my case I "knew" something was wrong but I couldn't figure out what. I knew M's weren't supposed to be like this but I had ZERO examples of what a good strong M does look like. I tried for years prior to dday to get my WW to open up and work on things. She would try for a few weeks but eventually revert back to her old ways. Looking back it's pretty obvious she would try but the A was till there. It's that competition that you don't know you are in thing. I had to have perfect days as it related to my WW ALL the time but didn't know it. If I had an off day OM was in the wings waiting. If you don't know the rules of the game you can NEVER win.
I believe everyone has issues. I believe that barring mental illness many people can go through life managing those issues without even realizing they have them. Most people know the difference between right and wrong. Our experiences shape our perception of right and wrong and how we deal. In the LTA's our WS's effectively manage what we see, hear, and feel in the relationship to the point of severe manipulation and what I consider emotional abuse. They throw us emotionally off balance for so long that we don't even remember what being centered felt like. I can't tell you how good it felt to actually feel how I remember feeling before I got married. I felt rudderless and lost for YEARS and I actually feel okay now. I don't even know how to describe it in words but at the beginning of my 180 it was like weaning myself from a drug. Taking her ability to influence my life in any way shape or form away left me with no direction. I have never been abused and don't intend to belittle anyone that has with this analogy but during the beginning of the 180 I felt like a person that wanted to go back to the abuser because it was what I knew and had grown acustomed too. After a few weeks I was still lost but feeling a little better. Then I could start dealing with the aftermath of everything. WW was constantly manipulating me without my knowledge to keep her A alive and her secrets buried. Once I removed her from the equation things started to get better slowly over time.
Got a bit off track but my point was I wasn't necessarily unhealthy UNTIL my WW started having her A and making me "think" there was something wrong with me. After all the lying and gaslighting for years I actually believed there was something wrong with me and that's the largest of the issues I struggle with now and why I still get angry. I didn't have codependant tendencies or at least they never manifested UNTIL I got married. I never had an issue walking away from something in the past that I KNEW was a bad situation for me. Granted I didn't have children back then so my choice was clear, leave and move on. So yeah the LTA exposed my unhealthiness but it was her LTA that caused my unhealthiness in the first place. What am I doing about it? Trying to work through the anger mostly. I think I tackled my issues now it's just dealing with the other things the shitstorm opened up to and in me.
I never said I was perfect but what I did do was be completely honest with my WW all the time. She knew my hang ups, she knew about my past relationships and what happened, she knew about the issues I had with hugging since my parents never hugged or touched in front of my brother and I. I told her all of this up front over time while dating and in the beginning of the M. She never once told me anything about her FOO or her fucked up past. She hid it all instead of telling me or getting some help.
So did the LTA cause me to do some digging, Yes, but the digging was me unburying myself from all the shit she piled on me for years. I was only ankle deep in shit from my own issues but after her mess got tossed in the pile of shit was nose high.
Now I struggle on a daily basis with whether or not the principles and morals I thought were important are actually even relevant anymore. I mean no offense but my struggle now is, why not treat women like disposable play things. Coming out of this shit changes you. The question is can it fundamentally change the core of my being. The world used to be black and white for me now that's no longer the case. I understand that broken attracts broken but it's so easy to manipulate people. Most people never look deeper than the surface of what someone shows them. The only thing that saves me is coming to SI and that I actually am friends with 2 women that "get it". I see that there ARE women out there taht are like me and share the same values I have. I should in fact wait to meet one of them instead of settling for the mess I see around me. In the meantime i'll keep working through my anger issues. I have to put on my "non-pissed off face" later this week as parent teacher conferences are happening.
Sorry for these long ass posts that always seem to veer off into left field. I need to start posting more to avoid that.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 8:56 AM, October 8th (Tuesday)]
Allgood: Has your xWH ever gone to IC? Since he wants to R, perhaps that may be a condition for it. Even if you don't R, it would help him and perhaps help him be a better father?
He went to IC when we were trying to R. Never got to the soul searching stuff. Seems like the furthest he got was that he was not accountable to his parents for anything growing up and was not used to answering to anyone, etc. that sort of thing.
You only get something out of IC to the extent you are willing to engage in it in a meaningful way. He seemed to use the sessions to advise as to whatever conflict had occurred between us and how he should handle it. Both ICs he saw apparently took the "I had an A because I was unhappy and I know it's wrong and won't do it again." at face value and didn't dig further.
I woke him up crying over the weekend and he held me tight for a while, but didn't say a word.
Dh I am so sorry,
I am so exhausted. Anniversary is this weekend. What do I do?
WHAT EVER WILL MAKE YOU HAPPPPPYYY!
It does not matter what.
Be good to you.
For me I refuse to do anything on my wedding aniversary as far as I am concerned vows were broken. He is not even allowed to mention it to me.
This causes WH alot of pain every year. But I dont care right now. I may never again. Point is do what you need for you.
It sounds like your WH and mine are the same. Go on as if nothing happened. Distract W with a gift or trip but avoid the issue. It hurts. Like you I have told WH exactly what is needed he could not do it.
I am much farther along in this whole mess. I can tell you that you will get stronger. You will be able to see yourself again. The promotion sound like a good step.
Those are great articles I printed both. To bad WH did not read these he may understand a little.
I actually printed both the articles. I dont knoew what I will do with them yet. Just nice to read I never asked WH anything that I did not need. My requests were not crazy or out of the norm.
In my case I "knew" something was wrong but I couldn't figure out what.
I wasn't necessarily unhealthy UNTIL my WW started having her A and making me "think" there was something wrong with me. After all the lying and gaslighting for years I actually believed there was something wrong with me and that's the largest of the issues I struggle with now and why I still get angry.
I hear you, I also believe we all have issues. But the As filled a whole new garbage bag of them for me.
Well back to work.
R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know
This is not the end, this is not the beginning
7yrs: I love your post.
In the LTA's our WS's effectively manage what we see, hear, and feel in the relationship to the point of severe manipulation and what I consider emotional abuse. They throw us emotionally off balance for so long that we don't even remember what being centered felt like. I can't tell you how good it felt to actually feel how I remember feeling before I got married. I felt rudderless and lost for YEARS and I actually feel okay now. I don't even know how to describe it in words but at the beginning of my 180 it was like weaning myself from a drug.
WOW, thank you for that! After all the TT for years, I ended up finding out that NPD has NEVER EVER been faithful to me, even when we were dating. Explains a lot. Anytime I would see a red flag, I got gaslighting, and even anger that "You don't trust me" bull.
And yes, I will admit that I am addicted to him. Because of all this emotional abuse and questioning myself, it's like I needed him to validate me, which he did with all his charm and WORDS. "I love you, you're beautiful, you're an angel......."
He did listen to my problems and as long as it didn't have to do with him, I felt like someone was listening and he was helpful.
7yrs, thank you for sharing that!! You have opened up a floodgate within me of some real insights.
Danni: I'm glad that you liked them. I thought they were really insightful and helpful. Especially the one talking about betrayal and lies. Our stories and past are part of us, and when they are taken away and we are presented with a different version, it does throw us off. Especially when we based a lot of our decisions, goals, etc on what we thought was the truth.
I now question all of the 30 years of my M. None of it is what I thought it was.
I think my WH was aslo cheating during our entire M. I always got the same. You dont trust me. I was always the one with the problem.
Looking back there are so many instances that he explained away. I belived WH once. Now he could be telling the truth and I still would not let my guard down enough to beleive a word he says.
I now question all of the 0 years of my M.
^^^me too. But not from the standpoint of infidelity. From the standpoint of happiness. Who I am, what I want. What I have. I see now my issues (courtesy IC and some timely books that I have referenced before) but really my WW's issues as related to intimacy, attachment, self-esteem, blaming, etc., etc. I now see those and CONTROL my behaviors, actions, and reactions. I can point out complete shit when I see it in a more positive way. And without some huge negative reaction. Better for me, better for the M.
I really now do look back at the 20 years in a much different light now.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 1:44 PM, October 8th (Tuesday)]
Everything looks different. When I look back it was all lies.
WH works for himself. There were so many times when I knew down deep he was not working when he said he was. Even now with proof in front of him he denies denies denies.
He can't even own up to the things I know, so how do I look back and know which was lies. At this point it is not even worth the bother.
Now he calls all the time to tell me where he is where he is going, but I do not believe him. He knows this but again like Decimated WH he just thinks it all goes away.
Also when I look back at my M . Alot of it for me is why did I put up with all WH bullsh****. Realy!! CRAZY
My whole view of my M is tainted!! That is also one of the effects of As.
Everything looks different. When I look back it was all lies
Dani, my WW cheated on me from the time we started dating and then all through our M. I used to try to put on her "cheater glasses" to see what her world must have looked like through our history and when you do that all you see are lies. But the thing is my WW was so good at compartamentalizing that is not how she saw the world during that entire time. I have no doubt she knew what she was doing was wrong but we shared so many special times during all those years that had nothing to do with the A. It makes our history very confusing.
I don't think I will ever really understand it as to what she was thinking - I gave up trying to look through her "cheater glasses" because it doesnt really do any good for me to do so. I wont be able to understand how she held it together all of those years and was able to enjoy all the special times in our lives while still having an LTA.
I have no doubt she knew what she was doing was wrong but we shared so many special times during all those years that had nothing to do with the A. It makes our history very confusing
YES YES and YES
Even the good memories are tainted. its always was he cheating then???
How do you see your history without the affair googles.
How do you see your history without the affair googles
One thing that my WW did that was helpful was to not just tell me about the bad things related to the A but also to tell me about all the good memories that she had of our M history (there are many). I think because of that it has helped keep my M history in perspective. For the most part we have always had an excellent M which probably is strange given the extent of her LTA. When I look back without the affair googles, it is a good history and I try to focus on the good times and not rewrite it all.
That's not to say that I don't have scars that I still deal with. For example, there is a weekend once a year that I have always gone on with a bunch of my long term friends from school - we watch sports, play cards and drink - lots of fun and it has been a tradition for many years. Looking back I can see how this was such a convienent weekend that she knew I would be out of town - its hard to not think about that now when I go.
When I do need to look back on the A history, I try to focus my attention on those things that I know aide me in going forward rather than things just for history sake. For example, my WW would often make our event/social schedules so confusing that I would often have to ask her to tell me again because I didnt remember something. In reality, I doubt I was ever told in the first place and having a calendar constantly in flux and confusing for me aided in her ability to maintain her A. I used to then get the "you don't listen to me" line. Those things I do not forget about our history and I put my foot down now when they come up. Events go on a calendar that I have access to ahead of time and I get confirming emails of the events so I can look back on if necessary. I will not accept the "you don't listen to me" line.
I find looking at old photos though extremely difficult, wedding albums, vacation pics, any of it really. I avoid looking at these items because when I do I want to see if there is a different story behind them that I didnt know and put those affair goggles on. It still is a good history but that doesn't mean that I haven't taken steps to avoid dwelling on it I guess.
we shared so many special times during all those years
My problem is that those "special times" are tainted. Special times that I remember NPD going off to be on the phone..... Special places that I found out he took her to also. Happiness I thought I had in my home overseas and finding out she was living there with him and sleeping in my bed when I came to the US to visit my mother and older sons. And this past summer when he brought all of them here and went to all the place s we go....
I think the real deal breaker for me was when he said that when he found out she was pregnant with OC#1 he said, "It was the worst time in OUR lives"
That about sums it all up.
It wasn't just that I was betrayed with adultery, it was also I was betrayed with my life, goals, history, and dreams. All of that was based on what I felt was a partnership in life and all the assets (emotional, physical, monetary, etc) that I put in was used for someone else.
Sorry for the mini rant.
tell me about all the good memories that she had of our M history
I think that's a really good way to look at it. I'm happy for you.
It's awful. Keep looking forward - it is better there.