The real femist movement I see is woman wanting to be men
eta: Freud had it wrong!
[This message edited by SisterMilkshake at 9:10 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
Shirley Glass in 'Not Just Friends' and other authors have written about the fact that more women are in the workplace now and more women are in positions where they have to travel for work etc.
So that provides a lot more opportunities for infidelity.
And then of course there is the lax attitude that society seems to have when it comes to indiscriminate and casual sex.
So, in my opinion, that has trickled down to the same attitude toward marriage.
In my day- seeing a man with a wedding ring on his finger was a stop sign. Today it seems that it is an enticement for some women to try to see if they can seduce the married man.
The same is true for the OM.
Married women are no longer off limits.
In fact, they think of them as a convenient sex partner because there will be no strings attached.
Personally, I was shocked at how ho-hum the MOW/co-worker was after d-day.
She was worried about her boss finding out and getting fired (because so much of her shenanigans happened at work!)
But, in regards to feeling any guilt or remorse? nothing.
The closest she came was in an email to another married male co-worker when they were discussing my conversation with her when I said they (she and my FWH) had destroyed my marriage.
What was the MOW's comment?
basically a shrug of her shoulder...she said: "I guess I could have done better but I thought we were just having fun."
Duh? You are a mature married, mother of three, working professional...and this is how you see a 5 yr LTA?
In the aftermath of D-Day, I was definitely guilty of saying things that were incredibly sexist out of anger & frustration, like how does a 5' foot tall woman, with giant DDs actually protect anyone, lol. So, I get it. I do.
I'm done. Good luck. I'll try not to let the door hit me on the way out.
I am offended not because I'm overly sensitive but because being told what everyone "like me" wants by the spokesperson of a group of people "not like me"
I see the "not like me"s being told all the time by the "like me"s what they want, what they think, how they act all the time on SI as well.
Below is an example headline to a topic I saw yesterday on SI.
Men don't leave unless there is someone else
I think what is hard is that for 99% of the cases here we have been hurt by someone of the opposite sex who we trusted more than any other person in the world. A BS who then struggles with opinions and thoughts afterwards from someone of the opposite sex is likely natural defense mechanism our brains have to process.
violence against people "like me" is our own damn fault
I did not see this, Tryn's posts are very long and I could have missed it. That is extremely offensive if said.
But what it is teaching woman is that it is ok to have casual sex. Go romp with whoever you want, it is your body. Men love that! That is not taboo anymore. Men want sex so bad they pay for it. Do women do this? Not many and it is very rare. The new attitude Feminism is teaching is that.. OK.. No need for a man to make a serious commitment. No need for a man to earn sex.. it comes so easy. No need to open the car door any more.. I give it to you for free without you behaving in a quality way. Can you imagine why those boys in Ohio watch on and filmed a girl passed out get raped? Laughing, not even thinking about it other than.. the casualness of it all. Sex is viewed as so casual, yet when we discover an A it brings us so much pain when our spouses have it with another. Sex is not so much viewed a gift, a connection, a way to really be committed.
Yeah, this is what I was referring to as outrageous and I believe Nell is referring to
as violence against people "like me" is our own damn fault
Are you offended yet, RP?
Simple answer - absolutely yes.
I am guilty of skimming some of the very long posts and didn't get past the first couple sentences on that one.
Any blaming the victim type thought process is completely out of line.
is woman wanting to be men
I'm getting off track here. In any case: bottom line -- COURTESY.
OK.. I will let the door hit me in the ass on the way out and move away from morality and values to a discussion about being offended. That is a great subject too when it comes to behaviors in M.
I will go first. My buddy warned me about my W may be having an A which I know today being about 7 or 8 years into her A. He was most hurt at that time because his own M infidelity was exposed… so he felt the need to warn me.
So I opened up to my W and ask about her about it. She got greatly offended.. How dare I question her fidelity. When she got offended, I crawled back into my hole. I did buy a GPS.. but my own guilt about tracking her was so strong, I did not place it in her car. Sound familiar to anyone? What was it about me?
Just on the golf course recently, I carded a 5…
Bill, “You made a 6”
Me, “I made a 5”
Bill, “recount them”
Me. Pointing to every shot counting 1, 2, 3,4-5.. “Yes Bill, It is a 5”
Bill, “whatever, it doesn’t matter”
Kevin, “Bill, Tryn made a 5, I counted them”
Me.. I am offended.. “Bill, don’t confuse me.”
What kind of man is Bill? Did what I just say drive him into a place where next time he won’t check me? Or will he have the courage to tell me again he thinks I need to recount?
I know this about me today… I am different. I don’t avoid conflict. I don’t view conflict as bad.. or let my emotions scare me into no courage.
Nell.. I don’t want you to leave if that what you mean.. Just so you know.. I submit to my W.
NJGal, thanks for being u.
also ETA: I just don't get the being offended part because I don't really know any of you. But I understand that is just me.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:15 AM, September 20th (Friday)]
found out our health INSURANCE CANCELED.
So jumped on Hs computer and a sign on page for g mail popped up.
I called h and asked him his password and user name he said he did not have g-mail. I said okay what ever
I asked why it came up
I DONT KNOW.
next thing I know he is home threw phone down on the table slapped his weekly money he gives me for bills.
H said that I cant let things go. I hold a gruge.
he is not coming to Maine this weekend.
said alot of other things I cant remember.
I said it was never addressed maybe thats why.
Maybe because we have such a great marriage that I should not be worried. We said alot of other things before he stormed ouit of the house.
His usual DENY DENY DENY. then get mad/defensive lets not face the problem!!!!!
I cant do this anymore.
He will never understand what he has done.
He will never own his own stuff.
I realy dont know what to do now
R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know
This is not the end, this is not the beginning
again I am saddened by what you share. you have a right to have matters 'closed' in the way you see fit.
I can relate in a way to your H's behavior... the only way I can describe it here on the quick is man-child-itis. He is perhaps acting like you are his mother and you are unfairly grounding him. I have had such temper tantrums in the past. And they can span years.
I mentioned above that you should write down specific actions that you want him to take...and I think you need to commit to yourself to indeed achieve closure if those actions are taken.
if your H refuses to take your actions then he is a petulant child...selfish...immature not a good man for Danni.
the insurance thing is also a gross act of negligence....that puts you at a risk that has wide ranging ramifications.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:44 AM, September 20th (Friday)]
move away from morality and values to a discussion about being offended
This is the key, Tryn. Morality and values.
I believe that blaming a shift in morality and values on feminism and then generalizing about what is feminine and "manly man" is what is offensive.
"All men(women) are created equal" means in their value and their rights. This is what the feminist movement was about. Not women wanting to be men, but to have the same rights to choose their destiny, to be paid equal wages.
The ability to have rights as a person. The ability to choose to do certain things.
Society dictates what is considered "feminine" or "masculine". Different cultures have different meanings on this. Soceity's views on things also change over time.
Generalizations should be avoided. The feminist movement should not be put to blame for a shift in morality and values. There are many historical factors at play.
I can say that I find x, y, z attactive in a man, may not be what someone else does. These are personal opinions.
But, I feel that most of us agree that what is attractive is morals and values.
That I believe would be a good subject for discussion.
Tryn, I feel the generalization about what a quality woman should be or a quality man should be is about morals, not whether or not a man leads and a woman follows.
A long time ago, I gave WH a card that said:
Don't follow me,
I may not want to lead
Don't walk ahead,
I may not want to follow.
Just walk besides me
and be my friend.
When WH asked me to marry him years after I gave him the card, he presented the card again and asked,
"Will you walk beside me?"
I know I more than welcome our LTA brothers' POV. It doesn't mean that EVERY man in the world feels that way, the same as not ALL women feel the way I do. There are a lot of things that women may have in common, as do the men.
But what I personally find offensive is being told what a "quality" woman should be or do in general, meaning that if I'm the one who is fixing the plumbing, or doing repairs around the house or cleaning the pool in addition to the other "feminine" jobs such as cooking and cleaning and child care, I shouldn't be labeled as not being feminine. Also, I don't label NPD as not being "masculine" because he doesn't know how to repair things, but I realize that he's not being a quality PERSON by not offering to help, and perhaps I am not realizing that I'm a quality person that I should ask for help instead of doing it and then being resentful.
That is not about being feminine or masculine.
[This message edited by honesttoafault at 11:35 AM, September 20th (Friday)]
We want to be heard and understood. I suspect that in your case, it's not so much the details of the A per se, but for true communication, true intimacy that you want and he's not giving that to you. He is just putting on a show that all is ok. That he's doing all the motions so what are you complaining about?
I do not rush to open any door. As far as opening car doors that is a lost art partly because of remote unlockers. Back when you had to use a key to unlock a door, it made more sense to walk those extra steps. I still do that. I also opened doors for men. Yes I am that friendly in a do as you would have others do for you. If your friendly comment was meant to imply that opening a door for a man is a gay act, well it is not.
When I said I opened door mostly what I was referring to is at business. Where I live many people do. First there opens the door no matter who it is. Women open and hold doors for men too. It is just common courtesy nothing else.
The reason for men or women to cheat are many. The two easiest reasons to understand are because they wanted to and because they could. As njgal said, the growth of women in the workplace gave them more opportunity to cheat. (because they could) This also give the men more opportunity. Now all the people that want to cheat have much more of a chance to do their thing. It is true that if someone wants to cheat they will. It is just so much easier when you are free of that pesky spouse who would not want their H or W to bang someone else.
Nell. If you are still there I did not grill yesterday. Tonight I am going to do some frog legs.
Wow, just wow!
i did just that and left it in his desk. I am leaving for our place on maine without h. everything down on paper.
i realy think i am done. if he can not man up so to speak.
You hit it right on the nose.
i do not want details. just some communication.
have a nice weekend everyone. i am going to hopefully have some solitude.
Hope you have a beautiful weekend filled with peace and serenity and that you will be able to get some clarity on exactly what you want to do when you get back home.