So.. what do you mean by bullshit.. What is a feminst anyway by your definition?
1: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests.
Do I think a woman can be a political leader? YES
Do I think a woman should be paid well for the work they do for an employer? YES
Do I think it is wise to pay a woman more than a man if she out performs perhaps a man? YES
Social equality.. OK ladies.. tee it up from the blues like us men. How fair is that? 200 lbs vs 100 lbs...
Life is not equal.. men and women are not equal... a given in life.. Life is not always fair.
Do you want me to open a door for you ladies? or not?
I love that animal channel.. I was watching it those behaviors of lions. A lionesses in the pride will stalk the prey.. and kill it for food.. the Lion sometimes just wait for the lioness to bring the food.. so he will then eat it. But when threat comes into the pride.. the Lion will use his strength to defend his pride even to his near death. If a lioness brings down a elephant.. The Lion is the one who goes for the jugular. There are gender reasons.. Why should any of us believe it is no different in a human? A BS man will want to know things like.. Sex postion where a BS woman wants to know.. did you have feelings. There is a movie about that.. art imitates life. The man is protecting his seed like a Lion killing the cubs that are not his.. A lioness is being led.. only seeking the strongest seed so her cub are protected when born.
Is nature wrong?
The real femist movement I see is woman wanting to be men. Equal to men. That is what I mean..
[This message edited by trynhard at 10:51 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]
The real femist movement I see is woman wanting to be men.
Equal to men.
As I said, I don't have time to get into this debate right now.
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
...he really didn't put much thought into her either.
A dozen roses is a no thought gift that can be bought at most grocery stores. There are times I will give a dozen roses, but I always have some of "our" flowers mixed in.
Tryn, re: the dog story, are you saying that I should'a crated FWW?
Have your spouses said that they almost wished they could get caught? Yes, but when I caught her she denied, gas-lighted and it took days to get the truth.
That towards the end they were burning out? Yes, but she had ups and downs in the A's. At the end she says she was tired, but the number of calls and texts, and minutes were increasing.
The guilt was consuming them? Yes
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 11:14 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]
He says there are two types of women.. A woman who can be lead, or a woman tricked by society into being a feminist....
Feminist needs an un-masculine man. A masculine man lives in misery with a feminist. These are woman trying to behave and act like a man.. a fake existence
Life is not equal.. men and women are not equal... a given in life
Ya - this is pretty offensive. The genders have differences, obviously, but they are equal in their value. No one has been tricked.
The real feminist movement I see is woman wanting to be men.
No. Not at all. That women are independent and do not need to rely upon their spouse for everything is not a woman wanting to be a man. I'm a smart person, who spent a lot of time and money to educate myself and I could not fathom casting that aside once I got married. Women work for many reasons, for financial necessity, to be able to provide their family with certain luxuries they would otherwise do without, for a sense of personal achievement, socializing with peers, etc. And, while I would have loved to have stayed at home with my children and spent more time with them, my children know I love them and have benefited from my guidance and support nonetheless.
Do you want me to open a door for you ladies? or not?
Not really. While I can appreciate the sentiment, that's about it. Not something I expect or want; not something I even think about.
Take the discussion of golfing. Let's say I wanted to do X and I talk to my WH about it. I start out with a long, long discourse about how much I enjoy it. Then I tell him it's his decision. "Oh, honey, I want to engage in a hobby that involves taking one day out of every weekend because I love it sooo much and it makes me so happy and... can I tell you how happy it makes me? But it's YOUR DECISION whether I do this thing that I love so, so much."
(This makes me remember that Tryn has blamed himself for neglecting his WW in the past, and said this was one of the causes of the A. His words, not mine.)
OK, also, take the note of his note to WW's DD re helping around the house. "If you loved me, you would do it." Seriously Tryn, are you SURE you're not a Jewish grandmother? Because you've got the imposing guilt thing down cold.
I've also found it a little disturbing how he hands out accolades when someone behaves the way he thinks they ought to... then you're a "quality" man or woman. Manipulative.
Tryn, you asked for reactions... IME, men who harp on about women trying to be men are men who are threatened by female strength and insecure in themselves as men. Why does it bother you so much? Why do you keep raising it in this forum? Honestly, I see the number of women on here who expect so little from their men, and "submit" to them, who can't leave terrible marriages because they have too many kids and not enough earning power and I think a little feminism would be good for them.
Then there are times when you go down paths like you are now. I don't know whether to throw you a life raft or watch you squirm your way out of it. You are so focused on the differences between males and females that I think you miss many of the similarities. Yes there are some obvious physical differences - I think the other differences that you try to seek out though are differences that you may have observed on a personnel level but may not represent the norm.
The issue that I think you dance around with these conversations is with regards to power dynamics in relationships. There is no default setting to who holds more power in any relationship, it is an issue that needs to be worked out.
In my own M, it sometimes is an issue, both my wife and I are both used to being in leadership positions with our careers. My wife grew up in an environment where the women in the family were clearly in the power position. I grew up in a much different environment where it was much more balanced. It is an adjustment and I do struggle sometimes when I am at functions with my wifes family. She also does see when they are being inappropriate and disrespectful. We have to not overstay as a result. I am sure in other family situations where there is not better balance the issue can be reversed.
It is about equality.
I see the hard-core edge of the feminist movement not wanting women to be men, but kind of really wanting to deny the fundamental differences between he genders and the practical ramifications.
From a logical/mathematical view men do not equal women. That is true because they are far from identical.
I overall sometimes get the sense from some activists that in order to maintain the (correct) judgement that men and women are equal in value, the differences need to be minimized if not denied.
I have valued the gender difference discussions here at LTA as it has helped me get a 360 deg view of things.
...I think a little feminism would be good for them
is it that or just self-actualizing? Is it feminism that brings a positive development? Or just continued encouragement? I see the latter here at LTA every day.
As for tryn, he can defend himself as he sees fit, but I did not see the words in his prose that you used, Blobette.
e.g. "But it's YOUR DECISION whether I do this thing that I love so, so much". I got the sense he was pretty specifically saying that it was NOT his wife's decision as to whether he went golfing or not - it was just his wife's decision as to whether she was going to be happy about it or not in understanding golf's significance and tryn's needs. Big difference.
Too with the laundry. Tryn neither stated nor implied a conditionality, but a very direct statement of what was needed: "We need help with the laundry." No different than in my business. I say what I or my business needs and wants all the time. It is my employees' choice to fulfill those or not. It is not about guilt, it is about fulfilling the role that you have agreed to take, assuming the requirements of the role have been communicated.
Anyways, back to my work. Glad you new folks have found our group. I hope you see the diversity of viewpoints as helpful in looking at your own lives and situations, each one unique. Whether wrong, right, or inflammatory, I appreciate all the remarks and criticisms here.
Now back to my day job!
I don't know whether to throw you a life raft or watch you squirm your way out of it.
I'm pulling up a comfy chair and makin' popcorn. Want some?
NJ - WH said it was an internet quiz that imposed no more knowledge than a horoscope. He only took it because it was important to me. Like I said before - pleasant limbo does not equal R.
ETA - Positive - I agree with ats about the roses.
[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 11:59 AM, September 19th (Thursday)]
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
A quality woman living for free in her parents house loves them with service and respect.
That's not manipulative? If she doesn't do the laundry, she's 1) not a quality woman and 2) doesn't love her parents. I kinda see this big finger shaking at her that she's not loving or respectful. Tryn asked for reactions -- that's how I'd read it. But then, I have a Jewish grandmother.
I'm pulling up a comfy chair and makin' popcorn. Want some?
Blobette - I understand why you are upset but I don't know if I agree with your assessment of manipulation. I don't think I know any BS dealing with a LTA that hasn't had to conduct some manipulation on their WS. We are dealing with a WS whose status quo is to be seeing two people at the same time and has been fine with that for a very long time. Our whole point is to provide them some manipulation to show them that the lifestyle they have chosen is not healthy and not fair to us. Yes, at some point we need to let them choose their path and live with those results but I never see that as a snap of the fingers here and it is done.
Honestly, I see the number of women on here who expect so little from their men, and "submit" to them, who can't leave terrible marriages because they have too many kids and not enough earning power and I think a little feminism would be good for them
That may be true, I also see a lot of men on here that have to make a choice of giving their WW R or deal with the consequences with an unfair court system that thinks all things being equal a women can care for children better than a man. Life as a BS is unfair on many levels.
And, yeah, that whole submissive females stuff was both offensive and ridiculous. Yeesh.
The crate comment made me LOL!
[This message edited by atsenaotie at 1:51 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]
A feminist is OK with others raising their kids and is OK with not nurturing their kids at a very young age..
is what got my Irish up...
Yep.. grab the popcorn.
BTW.. that is what my therapist says.. in addition to the woman's movement... And so far, everything he has been saying is working. For the new women here.. He says if you woman is watching soaps, reading trashing novels.. she is giving her sex to those items.. not much different than a man view porn.. Iwant said get a new theropist... lol.. My W thouht that was Ridculous. Crazy part is she is doing far less of that stuff Humm??? Her choice, not mine.
It is interesting to see how people react to things. Like labeling..
Blobette.. Manipulative? I am wide open to you explaining what I did to be manipulative. Now ats would be manipulative by placing his W in a crate.. Don’t do that ats.. Just make sure you give her your highest attention possible.. no crate needed.. she will never leave the yard.
There is no default setting to who holds more power in any relationship
DH is even smarter! or is it? me.. Avoid things or lay it all on the table? The old me.. I am not afraid to discuss much these days until rage sets in.. then, you are not longer part of my world..figuratively speaking because based on your post you are a fine woman.. btw.. From the theropist i have..Imagine if a woman who gets beat up leaves.. then they no longer need NOW.
Nell.. I was hoping you would answer.. I knew the “submit” word is taboo to a woman.. I love your strength. Regret? I know this.. She is being stomped on at her work.. treated unfairly in her wages. She can look at the freedom of my job.. and be envy. Freedom is something I value. She wants what I have rather than looking at it from it being ours. She does not make the changes nor have the courage to risk to security to achieve what I have. I have no control over her choices in life. I no longer tell her how, or what to do, unless she asks.. and then as an idea. She does not ask because she already knows how to get here. She witnesses it. I know today that all I achieve came at a price with mistakes I made along the way. My W is selfish in many ways. I suppose we all are in some ways.
Let me pose some question to you ladies.. Think of the question as your ideal choice in life. Forget about the “BUTS” and please be honest. Not your today situation.. but the ideal situation.
Do you think it best to stay at home to teach your children life lessons or let someone else do it?
Do you think men understand you better than women?
Do you think it is best to be M, commited when you have children?
[This message edited by trynhard at 2:43 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]
Does your group teach you how to insult and piss off women? You seem to be doing a pretty good job of that. Sistershake, Blobette, Allgood and Nell do not seem very happy. I can't really blame them. I can think of a few more LTA women that have not voiced their opinion yet. I am guessing that the shit is going to hit the fan when they do. What is your deal with wanting to start a gender war here? Is this all taught in your manly man group?
I hold doors open for everyone. Women, children, men, it does not matter to me who is there. I was taught many years ago that you do not shut a door in someone's face.
Yes I know how to forgive, not forget. I also know I am not there yet completely.
I understand that his reactions are to protect himself. That is how it is with him.
I also understand the Retrouvialle is about communication.
He wanted to use it as a rugsweeping tool. We were all good so no more talk about the As that will be bad. Thats why I stopped. I would have contiued if at some point we would talk about the As in a constructive way. I told him this.
To answer you question about my reactions to his answers...
Hs answers to my questions were read in MC. My reaction was accepting to his feeling. I actually thanked him for taking the time and understanding how important it was for me to hear.
I took full responsibility for my part in the breakdown of our marriage. I apologized for for my part in our marriage breakdowning.
I tried not to cry but I did.
I was just as lonely and unhappy as he was But I DID NOT CHEAT. Nor would I have ever. so this is very hard for me to understand.
Thats what my questions were about. Trying to understand H.
Again there was to be more letters and talking but that all was changed at the next MC H decided not to answer any more.
I do not beleive he is trying to lead me to a better place. He is thinking of himself. Still in self preservation mode after all this time.
As far as making H feel guilty, Last week with that penis in your pants remark was the first time I said anything in a very long time..
March was the last MC meeting we went to. That was the last mention of the As. I have said nothing since.
Crying is left in the shower, outside weeding. in the car when I an alone, anywhere so he cannot see me.
Always try to put up my happy face for everyone else including kids, friends, family. I am the queen of EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!!!!!!!! When it it get to much to handle I use the I am just tired.
There were maybe three or four times right after i found out that i went on alcohol infused rants and threw it in his face.
I dont think you answering for My H is going to be helpful. sorry I need to know where his head was at.
I need to hear it from him.
I do not see this M survivng much longer. I can not remember the last time i initiated sex or even kissed him first, or made him feel wanted. I never refuse H.
I know this is bad but I just do not have it in me.
Did you me not caring less? about the As or about H.
PS I think you may be digging yourself into a Whole.
R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know
This is not the end, this is not the beginning
At one point about 18 months after DDay#1, I realized that my anger wasn’t helping me to move forward any longer; instead, it was holding me stuck in a bad place. I did EMDR therapy. My therapist worked with me to get me to put the angry thoughts/memories behind me so I could focus on the present and future. It worked, and quickly. It was such a relief to get control of those feelings. PM me if you want more info. If you haven't looked into EMDR, I cannot recommend it highly enough.
My first reaction when XWH confessed to his LTA was, “I’m so stupid.” Literally. It was the first thing that popped into my head. I mean, I lived with this dude and talked myself out of believing that he would be banging around like some big jackassy fucktard because HE would never do THAT to ME. It was beyond my ability to comprehend that kind of deceitfulness, cruelty and stupidity in a man that I loved and cared for. So I believed him when he gave me other reasons for his behavior (work, worry about his drug-addled brother, and mid-life crisis were all blamed). I supported him by taking on more household stuff, providing talk therapy, giving him tools and pep talks, etc., to help him through these (fictional) difficulties. I even gave him a better marriage when I recognized that nothing I was doing was helping his crap attitude and actions, and decided that the only person I could control was me, so I stopped being the mean wife begging for positive attention and started being La Esposa Perfecta. And he was lucky that he had a really good COW who never squealed, even though she was starting to get really impatient about the whole he’s-not-leaving-his-family thing.
That is all to say, that we believe the best of our spouses because that is what we are supposed to do. I saw XWH’s red flags but I truly thought they were red because he loved me and needed me in the way we all sometimes need our spouse… not because he didn’t give a rat’s ass about me and was really pissed off at me for existing at all.
I see red flags now and know what they are. They are known to me. But I hadn’t learned that yet, and no one can blame me for not knowing. If they do, they are heaping the cruelty on me, and they do not deserve any tiny little piece of me.
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 4:50 PM, September 19th (Thursday)]