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I Can Relate     Print Topic    
User Topic: Long Term Affairs - Part 32
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 4:53 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

PositiveAttitude
It is possible to "love" someone back into the M. It is most hard.

Believe me or not.. Being attractive is being strong. Strong meaning..

"Hey H Get your head back in the M.. and until you do by not just words but you showing me, you are not going to have any of my blessings. You get your head back in the M, show me for a few months how much you want the M, then you will be rewarded with me changing, me being more loving than any woman you have ever known."

Then see what he does. If ONE TIME you see him misbehaving.. YOU LOVE HIM by letting him go.. You love yourself.

That is all you can do.

Heck.. believe me when I say the AP is mostly about SEX for a man. Sex is an emotion connection too.. it takes a person 3 months of not loving someone to lose some of those strong feelings.

You might try this..

H, until you live this virtue of Chastity for a few months.. I don't want you. The print the following and give it to him.


Abstaining from sexual conduct according to one's state in life; the practice of courtly love and romantic friendship. Cleanliness through cultivated good health and hygiene, and maintained by refraining from intoxicants. To be honest with oneself, one's family, one's friends, and to all of humanity. Embracing of moral wholesomeness and achieving purity of thought-through education and betterment. The ability to refrain from being distracted and influenced by hostility, temptation or corruption.

A good man will respond and react.

A bad man won't.

Question for YOU.. Why would you want a poor quality man? You should not.. Only accept quantity.. why? because you want to love yourself to the best of your ability.

[This message edited by trynhard at 4:56 AM, September 17th (Tuesday)]


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 6:56 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

kg201..

Your W is completely shut down. That question you ask was not attractive

Attractive is taking the attitude position.. W, until you make the choice with 100% certainty to have a M with me, I move toward executing the choice you make. Only when you make that choice I will begin to work on changing me to be the quality man you need.

It sounds like you got a bit rattled.. You can control your emotions.. Feel them coming.. Have a plan when you fell them coming. The plan can be simple.. Call a friend just to touch base.

How to handle a closed down woman?

- apologies for being the man who was not so attractive.
- then go into 180 mode... It is most attractive to a shut down woman

180.. Never argue. Listen.. Control your feelings. If something stupid is said.. Just say nothing in respond.

Something to focus on... Make her react to you. Never react to her.

When she brings up anything about your M...

Does this mean you are 100 % back in this M? I will work on being a far better man only when you make the choice.. And when you do, that is going to take some time for both of us.

Move yourself forward... That being.. Hey, I made a few mistakes along the way.. One being I made a bad choice in a W. She shows it by her own actions.. I will survive and my good is coming.

My 2 cents.. Peace.


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
MutedMan
♂ New Member
Member # 36669
Default  Posted: 7:17 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thanks all for the responses.


Me=BS 42
Her=WW 37
DDAY=Feb. 2012
5yr long term affair
2 little kids
Forward does not necessarily mean together.

Posts: 48 | Registered: Aug 2012 | From: Mutedman
Allgoodnamesgone
♀ Member
Member # 26157
Default  Posted: 7:39 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Positive:

I'm trying to make our marriage a safe haven where he feels like we can correct our problems before I start to withdraw and perhaps push him right back at her

I agree with this, but only to an extent.

You are going through your own trauma. And, you need to take care of yourself too.

My X had immediately chose me - yet 1 month later I discovered OW had gotten him a secret phone & they had been in constant contact within 2 weeks of DDay.

Upon discovering this - I acknowledged that he had feelings for OW that were not just going to be shut off because I discovered their affair. By the same token, I wasnt going to nurture him through his grief over missing OW. I told him take all the time he needs to deal with his feelings for OW - but that I wasnt going to be trying to work on our relationship while that happened. It was like a holding pattern til he made up his mind & could cast OW aside without turning back. I think this is as fair as you can expect to be under the circumstances. THat's about as safe as you can make it. If he's so broken up about OW that he cant see or appreciate your trauma - or if your spouse takes too long to make up his mind, it would be a strong signal to me that this is not a relationship worth investing anymore energy in.


Me- BS
DDay- 8/26/09
Separated after failed R effort.

Posts: 2165 | Registered: Nov 2009
DecimatedHeart
♀ Member
Member # 37657
Default  Posted: 7:55 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Positive -

I have been where you are now. My WH immediately chose me on D-day, and I subscribed to the marriage builders plan as well. I hadn't found SI yet, and it made sense to heal first and deal with the issues when things weren't so raw, but as you can see from my tagline, it didn't help. I too endured endless conversations about the OW,trying to be compassionate and understanding, all in the context of him "being honest", which was incredibly traumatic and quite frankly, cruel. All the while still lying about continued contact. You need honesty about actions. He can talk out his feelings elsewhere. You are not his IC.

It was only when I honestly, truly, felt strong enough to walk away from the marriage, and told him so in no uncertain terms, that he has started to show signs of possibly waking up from the fog. You can't nice your way back into the marriage. It is like the bully on the playground, they only respect you when you stand up for yourself. ((Hugs))


Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)


Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
kg201
♂ Member
Member # 40173
Default  Posted: 7:56 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Thank you for the responses to my post.

I finally started feeling better around 6 last night, and I realized that the last time I had a fight with my WW on a Sat. Morning, it was also late Monday before I felt better. It made me wonder whether the down feeling I had throughout the weekend and most of yesterday was some sort of post fight (trauma) chemical reaction, that needs two days to clear. Maybe the adrenaline fuels a post fight chemical low that gets back to normal over two days. Anyone else notice this about themselves?


Me: BH, 39
Her: WW, 40
Together 18 years, married 15+
LTA 3.5 years, ongoing
Dday: 7/28/13
Divorcing, 3 children
---------------------------------
"There can be no friendship without confidence, and no confidence without integrity." -S

Posts: 380 | Registered: Aug 2013
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 7:57 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Wow, go away for a night and see what happens.

Tryn,
I do think there is value in embracing conflict as you did in addressing your W's public critisim. Glad that part worked out, sorry about the loss to the phins.

PositiveAttitude,
Welcome ?

... LTA are the hardest to recover a marriage from because of the emotional attachment the WS has to the AP

I am inclined to disagree with this statement. In my experience, the LTA is able to sustain for so long because the emotional attachment is weak. If there were love and emotional intimacy, it would be hard to keep an emotional/physical relationship just simmering for so long. Instead, you would expect to find the AP's declaring their love for each other and planning to be together forever. Instead, I see the LTA as a union of two individuals with damaged selves. They use each other as a mirror to re-affirm to themselves that they are attractive, funny, smart, sexually desirable, whatever. I do not believe that the LTA WS is looking for a replacement spouse, just a patch for the hole within themselves. I think that the LTA spouse is basically happy in the M, but is looking to the AP to fill a need for external validation, affirmations, that is not addressed within the M.

The LTA spouse does not ever seem to be looking for a new spouse. With those who go on after dday to separate and D after a LTA, the WS may often return to "dating" the AP, but there does not appear to be a strong emotional attraction, more a needy dependency.

Thus, what makes the LTA harder to recover from is that after one works through all of the A-crap, there remains the personality deficiency in the WS that must be addressed in the relationship. FWW had a whole string of FOO and personality issues that I had accepted and ignored (as Tryn discussed) prior to dday, and that I do not tolerate well after dday. For our M to be successful (in my eyes), FWW has had to not only work through with me all of the A betrayal, history re-writes, and sex with OM, she also has to own and address her fear of emotional intimacy, her projecting, her black and white thinking, her emotional discomfort with sex, .... This is what makes her A hard to recover from, not any degree of emotional connection to any of her OM.

That leaves me with so little hope since my WH still hasn't gone completely NC, has kept me in limbo all summer,

Very gently, he is not keeping you in limbo; you are keeping you in limbo. A WS who does not maintain NC is very clearly telling the BS that the WS values the A relationship more then the M, that he or she is no longer ready or able to be a partner in the M.

...and seems to reevaluate staying in our marriage at least once a week. He always rearrives at the decision to stay however.

again, sorry to sound harsh, but he always decides to arrive at the decision to eat cake. He gets the best of both words. He has the stability of the M, you meeting 60+% of his needs, and still gets to keep his AP to address his emotional insecurity or provide intimacy-free sex. He is able to lean on the AP rather than take ownership of his issues and work on himself.

I'm trying to heal the emotional wounds so he sees that he doesn't need her and all his needs can be met within the context of our marriage.

You cannot heal the wound, only he can. You can try for the short term to be the patch on the wound as the OW is, but you cannot heal it. If he sees the M as a safe haven where his needs are met and he no longer wants the AP, he will come back happy that you changed and corrected what he perceived as the problem. Unfortunately, the problem will still reside within him. Why are you the one that must make the M a safe haven for him? What is he doing to make the M a safe haven for you, and yet you stay and try to do the right thing? Why?, because you are not the problem, he is.

Another book recommendation and I really think that this one will be good for you PositiveAttitude is "Sexual Detours" by Holly Hines. Especially her section on the 3-leg stool relationship.

[This message edited by atsenaotie at 8:02 AM, September 17th (Tuesday)]


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:03 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

So how did my W react to me when I said... Don't criticize me.. I don't and try not to criticize you..just Tell me what you need?

She apologized later in the evening she gave me not just regular.. I love you words... But it was not the casual I love you.. She grabbed my arm looked me square in my eyes.. Said, David, I love you.

Imagine that.. A relationship who both want to build each other up by making sure bad behaviors are pointed out...

I know something about all relationships.. In the romance phase all is so good.. Then when move into disillusion.. Our real self.. Thinks we learned from our parents kick in... Like behaving with critical words.. Opposite of the love of affirmation.. Fix it by doing things you control.. You stop criticizing and don't take someone who criticizing you. Just tell me what you need.. And if it is fair, I will do it.. And then you do it.. Change yourself.. And if someone cannot be quality.. You can always make a choice.. No I am only going to be around healthy people.. Direct people.. In the way that is safe for both.. I look at me first..to make sure I am being what I need to be.. Two with attitude are the M's that are most happy.

It is happening with me...


Posts: 2636 | Registered: Feb 2009 | From: Indiana
DecimatedHeart
♀ Member
Member # 37657
Default  Posted: 8:17 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats - well said! I too am finding that I have very low tolerances for personality issues, moodiness, criticism, etc., that I had always glossed over prior. For example...

Has anyone taken the Love Languages quiz? WH and I did it over the weekend. DD even did the teenager one. None of the answers were surprising. Mine was a tie between Words of Affirmation and Physical Touch. DD's was Quality Time. WH's was the exact opposite of mine. Acts of Service followed by Receiving Gifts. Physical Touch scored a 1. I have always known this about WH, but it really bugs me, where it never did before.

Thoughts?

ETA - tryn, sweetie, you put your real name in your last post. And so glad your WW came back and responded as she did.

[This message edited by DecimatedHeart at 8:20 AM, September 17th (Tuesday)]


Me, BS 41
Him WH 42 - LTA, EA/PA
Together 24 years
DD13 - the love of my life
DDay#1 11/10/2012
DDay#4 4/5/2013 (NC broken AGAIN)
A supposedly over 6/14/2013

All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)


Posts: 129 | Registered: Nov 2012
7yrsflushed
♂ Member
Member # 32258
Default  Posted: 8:33 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Just popping in to say welcome to the new posters!


D-day 5/24/11
BH = Me
STBXWW = Her
2 children
The first true sense of calm I felt in YEARS was when I filed for D...
Separated 6/2013, D official around 6/2014

Posts: 1566 | Registered: May 2011
atsenaotie
♂ Member
Member # 27650
Default  Posted: 8:48 AM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Has anyone taken the Love Languages quiz?

DH, FWW and I read the book and took the quizzes once we were working on R. It was insightful, we both agreed the most "value per page" of anything we had read.

FWW's top 2 are Words of Affirmation and Acts of Service. Mine are Physical Touch and Quality Time. We are almost exact opposites in that her highest are my lowest and vice-versa. We could see where for all the M we had both been speaking and expecting response in our own Love Language, and it just did not work. Not only was physical touch not on her list of LL, she did not enjoy hugging and touching.

FWW still tends to speak to me in her LL, but I try to see it for what it is rather than being upset that she is not touching me or spending time with me. I have had to practice hard to do words of affirmation that do not sound too mechanical. I make the point consistently that I am no more willing to have a M without touch and sex than she would be to have a M without compliments and service.


LTA BS 53
FWW 60
M 1990, dday 10-5-09
Reconciled

Posts: 3964 | Registered: Feb 2010 | From: FL
danni
♀ Member
Member # 30257
Default  Posted: 3:02 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

it amazes me how much solace we all draw from here....even if we lurk once in a while or daily....there is a sense of community, a sense of belonging, a sense of remembering, and most importantly a sense of moving on, and a sense of survival
WELL SAID!


I need a happy ending.

Someone tell me it is all worth one more try.


Why do I always still protect him. I feel guilty bringing it up, making him feel bad, I cant beleive I am still here after all this time!! Still feeling stuck. Still putting him before me. again.


Every nite I leave work I am all ready to talk to him. You all give me courage. Can you all come home with me? I can never seem say anything! Its like i have writersblock or something like it.


I printed all of the posts to read them a few times to absorb all the great advice. But I just cant seem to make a move.


njgal


The bandaid is ready to burst. Oh my look out I have so much anger it scares me. He will never take it off.


We have tried 2 MCs and also attended Retrouvaille. It was wonderful, we were communicating like we never had. But H thought it was the fix, we were doing so well. When I told him during a MC appointment that it was all good but it did not negate him amswering my questions and talking about the As. It was not the answer to our problems. He shut down again. I actually stopped using the program.

With the MCS the sessions go well but when we leave he shuts down. No follow through.

I just decided I was the one doing all the work and he was going along. Again doing what he could and what he wanted. not what I wanted or need. So I left the ball in his court and it is still there.


The point is...I have not heard about any couple that has survived infidelity by sweeping things under the rug.


They may stay married but they are not reconciled.


Thats where we are

not married just not divorced
. I forgot who said thet here first. Sorry

So any happy ending to share.

Thanks



Danni 47 BS
him WS 47
Married 28+
3 children 21,22,26
1st D-day I was 8mths preg with last child
2nd D-day 4/13/2010
2OW same time frame

R'ing ?? yes, no, maybe, I dont know

This is not the end, this is not the beginning
linkin park


Posts: 320 | Registered: Nov 2010 | From: massachusetts
kg201
♂ Member
Member # 40173
Default  Posted: 4:07 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Recently I have been getting a lot of questions from colleagues and friends asking how my WW is doing, in reference to her cancer treatment.

In some cases I reply fine and leave it at that, but in other cases I can't help myself and say that I have no idea since we are now separated and I am no longer involved in her care. I have had to add that this is not by my choice, and then today that led to me saying that her boyfriend would know how she was doing as he is now providing care.

The looks of "I have no idea how to respond" just rain down on me at that point. You can't make these story lines up.


Me: BH, 39
Her: WW, 40
Together 18 years, married 15+
LTA 3.5 years, ongoing
Dday: 7/28/13
Divorcing, 3 children
---------------------------------
"There can be no friendship without confidence, and no confidence without integrity." -S

Posts: 380 | Registered: Aug 2013
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 5:12 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ats- Your description of a LTA is BRILLIANT!
I think it should become part of the Healing Library.

Seriously, I am going to ask a Mod how they choose articles etc. for the Healing Library.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 5:26 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Tryin- I'm so glad that your wife responded to you in such a kind, loving way.

kg- dealing with the emotional roller coaster ride after d-day is exhausting. All of the emotions -grief, shock, anger...etc. take so much out of you.
As for telling people the truth about your WW....
I did that. I told everyone about my FWH's LTA.
After d-day I kicked him out and we were separated for 6 months. Then we reconciled.
But.... I decided right after d-day that I would no longer keep his secrets for him.
I had protected him and his image for many years in terms of not telling anyone about his alcoholism.
D-day was the last straw for me.

I told everyone what was going on. Some people did not know how to respond but most were very sympathetic and surprisingly often opened up with a story of their own!


Decimated- are you upset about how he scored on the love languages in terms of being low on physical touch and yet he had a physical affair?
or is it just that the two of you are so different in terms of needs?


danni-
I did not realize that you had gone to MC and Retrouvaille and had an opportunity to talk about the infidelity before....
but- there must be some things that have gone unspoken , some questions that you never asked that are eating you up and causing so much stress and anxiety.
What do you think that is? what are the questions you would ask him?


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
njgal480
♀ Member
Member # 24938
Default  Posted: 5:34 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Allgood-I remember a lot about what you went through after d-day but did not remember that your WH was grieving over the loss of the OW.
I know that Dr. Harley and others say this is not uncommon and does not amount to a hill of beans-they do not equate it to a real, true, mature marital love etc.

But, it would have been so devastating for me to have had to deal with this.

My FWH was able to disconnect from the OW and never look back.
He reacted in the way that ats described in his post.
He and the MOW did not have strong emotional ties to each other.

I am so sorry that you had to deal with this.

Positive Attitude-
Sometimes you have to risk losing your marriage in order to save it.


Me- BS
Him- WH
Long term marriage
D-day- Jan. 2007
5 yr. LTA
Reconciled.


Posts: 3139 | Registered: Jul 2009 | From: NJ
Teach8
♀ Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 6:16 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Hi tribe...
First, Ats...I second Njgal...that is such a spot on description of a LTA. Thank you! I know I'm not much of a poster...more of a lurker. However...ironically I'm posting cause my fwh and I just had a discussion that he thinks I don't post enough. Knowing he will read what I post does sometimes stop me...but I am completely honest with him anyway...if that makes any sense?? I guess I like to talk to him before I post and then often don't feel like I need to post what was on my mind at that moment anyway.

But...we did have a discussion last night...and I think I really hurt his feelings. It all stemmed from a post in another forum about a ws being a good parent. I told fwh that he was a good parent in many ways but that I ultimately think that in order to be a good parent, you first need to be an adult. And in so many ways my fwh was just too selfish and childish to be an adult. A good parent understands that decisions we make affect our kids. It affects their stability, emotional security..etc. I also pointed out that many of the posters in this other thread had ws's that had affairs that were much shorter in duration. 7 years is a long time to gamble with your family and kids' future. I remember early on after dday my wh saying to me something along the lines of how dare I question his love for his children...he would die for them!! Yeah...you would die for them but you wouldn't stop sleeping with the ow for them. Good grief...it really is crazy making.

So...I guess I'm wondering what the thoughts are for those who've experienced a LTA. Yes, I think my husband has been a good dad since dday, but before that, I do question how could a parent he was while he was disengaged and absent from his family.

[This message edited by Teach8 at 6:43 PM, September 17th (Tuesday)]


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 467 | Registered: Aug 2012
Teach8
♀ Member
Member # 36521
Default  Posted: 6:45 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

Ughh...that last sentence was supposed to say how "good" a parent not how "could" a parent...but my stupid phone won't let me edit it. Sorry.


Me: BW. Him: WH. Dday: 4/26/12. TT until 8/15/12 LTA 7 years. Trying to R

Posts: 467 | Registered: Aug 2012
PositiveAttitude
♀ Member
Member # 40624
Default  Posted: 7:58 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

I do realize that WH isn't keeping me in limbo - that I am doing that to myself. I start interviewing for jobs this week, hopefully I find work quickly and can begin to take some semblance of control and independence back over my life.

I find the concept of am LTA being about emotionally weak people allowing it to persist. I'm not emotionally weak, so maybe that's went I don't understand it. Of course right now I don't feel strong enough to leave, nor do I feel strong enough to stay. Horrible place to be.


Posts: 145 | Registered: Sep 2013 | From:
trynhard
♂ Member
Member # 22698
Default  Posted: 8:29 PM, September 17th (Tuesday), 2013View ProfileEdit MessagePrivate MessageHomepage

LOL.. Well DH.. That is my name.. I have no fears.. heck most people know what happen in my M.

[This message edited by trynhard at 8:30 PM, September 17th (Tuesday)]


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