Petite: Welcome to our little corner of SI. Putting up walls is perfectly understandable. It's a form of self protection. Has your WH gone to IC, is he NC and being transparent? Is he remorseful?
Unless he is willing to do the work, R cannot take place.
Otherwise your WW is just a dry adulterer and her coping skills were inadequate before so if she doesn't do the work now it's only a matter of time before she fails to "cope" in an adequate manner again. Rugsweeping also puts the BS on defensive. You never are sure what will set them off and you end up walking on eggshells.
7yrs: I completely agree. a "dry adulterer" is a very apt description. This is the way they coped with the problems. "Walking on eggshells" is also true. NPD wants to rugsweep. But the main problem with rugsweeping is that the BS doesn't feel safe. That is my big issue. I thought for years it was that I wanted to feel secure, but SAFE is more precise. I don't want to feel that if I didn't do something "right" or got him upset that he would run out again. I spent so much time trying to be what I thought he wanted, that I forgot to be ME. I know I'm not perfect, and I do agree with Tryn that we should make ourselves attractive, but that shouldn't be to keep the WS, but to improve ourselves for ourselves to be the best person we can be for ourselves. That is called growth and it helps in our healing. It helps us move forward, whether in R or to S/D.
What MCJack said the other day about many BW's feeling that they are in competition with the OW really got me thinking. I don't know if it's soceity of what, but so many of girls growing up try to look pretty whether with clothes, makeup, being slim etc wanting to attract male attention. Perhaps this is subconscious but I guess it is kind of a competition. I don't mean that all women do this, but perhaps we should work on the whole person, becoming a great person inside and out. Now, that's attractive. Good self confidence is attractive. Being good with other people is too. Comes back to what Tryn was talking about that what was wrong with us that we put up with such bad behavior?
But, that bad behavior wasn't sudden. It was a gradual deterioration that so many of us chalked up to our S having a hard time at work, going through a rough time, etc. Instead of calling them out on it, we were supportive. Now I realize that just like I do with my kids, you have to let them know. I would tell my teens, "I understand you are in a bad mood because of x or whatever, but it doesn't give you permission to be nasty or fresh etc."
NPD left yesterday. He is not remorseful or never will be. The sitch is not going to change no matter what wishful thinking I have. Just when I think I can put up with something, he changes the game plan or ups the ante. But, there has been some internal changes within me that I'm working on. I am working on not being a victim and taking charge of my life. I am facing my fears and trying to tackle them. I am trying to put the oxygen mask on me first. I am trying to learn a balance between taking care of me and those I love.
For the first time in years, I'm looking at the future and what I want it to be without fear. I know I lost so much, so much that I worked for, and lost what I thought I had, but really didn't. That is a grieving process too and in a way even harder. We believed in something that wasn't real and based our lives on it and that is hard to come to terms with. And often it's not just our lives, but our kids too. A lot of things to deal with. Reality of the sitch, the reality of who the WS really is and the reality of who we are too.
Very traumatic and no wonder so many of us suffer from PTSD.
My mother had an A on my father with my now step-father for over 25 years now.
My BIL had an A and M his AP. They are still M for over 10 years.
Too me.. that information answers nothing of value.
Kg201.. I think your post is very healthy. When any woman behaves like she wants to end your relationship.. You give it to her. You are almost there. See.. your own uncertainty is your problem right now. You have the courage within yourself to end it.. but you have doubts. You can end this doubt. It will end your grief.
You can “win” your W back. There are never guarantees in life.. It starts with a solid honest choice by both of you. Did you make it yet? Did she make it yet? You both make together..
I think no matter what happens, you can learn for what has happen to you.. if you tell yourself.. Change yourself.. OK.. I am going to learn how to be the best possible man any woman can have.. Then, you start change yourself to live it. You must now have a far greater value and not be satisfied with the old you… I will be the most attractive man.. to a point no woman dares to risk losing you. See, when you know what love is suppose to be, you will know it to a point when your are not being loved and you then never accept not being love.. and believe it or not.. that is attractive. You have some learning to do.. A MC or IC can help.. focus every meeting on your own behaviors. You can google resources.. books.. etc..
You are in a situation where your W already checked out. She did years ago even before her LTA. It’s decision time. This will be the absolute. It is far the best I say.
If you can forget about your W fixing herself for now.. She must fix herself anyway. If you can not get rattled and control your own ego, emotions, those strong desires to be loved..
A person who cheats most likely has there self esteem completely broken. They have none. A quality man knows how to build a self esteem back up if someone is not trained to bury themselves in self pity, denial, defense methods.. I don’t know your W, but I do know this seems to be a natural human behavior. She had great fears so she live a double life. You can make an attempt to build her back up on your strength, if you have it.
You start now to practice forgiving, no matter you keep your M or not.. because it takes months and months not to ever again throw any betrayal back in her face. And you must learn how to forgive.. there are aspects of behaviors you must do. It is hard.. you will fail, but what you will do is apologize for your not forgiving, pick yourself back up and begin to forgive again.
To start.. You grab your W hand.. You tell her something like this.. “I am not nor ever will be a perfect man. But I am a man who can forgive people. I cannot lie and say this is going to be easy. I do have feelings. I will start to forgive you now and it is going to be a process for me.”
And I am here for you.. in your sickness. I will support you financially.. I will support you by being there at your doctor visits. I will serve you like a H is suppose to care for his W should she get sick. That is true love I am willing and capable.”
“I am going to change… but you must change too. The change into our future must be.. we do everything that is good for the M, total good for each other… not detrimental.. and we must listen to each other when one of us is not so perfect.. and want, to make decision to do things that bring us together rather than pull us apart.” That is your new theme.. I will do everything to be most attractive and bring my M together.. And so will my W.
“And this is your choice right now honey.. You can tear us apart, or you can begin to bring us together. “
“Honey, You make a choice. Do you want our M or not? You can certainly understand any choice other than 100% is going to result is my complete withdrawal. That is me. I will forgive you one way or another. If you cannot make a choice, that is ok. I can and will execute your choice. You say goodbye to your old life and in a couple days, you let me know.”
And if she does not say.. Honey, I am 100%.. With all the courage in your sole.. YOU END IT. Do not accept anything but a 100%.
Life has some givens.. Things end. Never look back.. treat yourself without guilt.. I forgive myself for all that I was.. I can now have female friends.. I will not pay for STBXW’s living.. she must support herself because that is her choice. I am giving her what she wants. Do yourself a huge favor, get the attorney and end it as quick as possible. Ask her to move out… do not help her in any way.. Do that 180 should she try and engage. This will help you disconnect. Hold your head high….
And work on being a far better man.. more masculine.. more giving.. more status.. less critical.. better values.. better.. the list goes on and on… You be quality, you will receive quality.
If she says she is 100% in.. then you change and be quality in every aspect. You make sure she knows when she is misbehaving. But for you to know quality.. you must be absolutely sound in your values.. Giver her a break for awhile during the process you begin to communicate as if everything you say, you do is good for her ego.. her safety.. her build up.. learn what to say and how to say it… When she misbehaves.. like critical of your methods.. Saying things like.. “You treat me like crap.. “ is not the way to say it….
Saying, “I am working hard to not be critical of you and I expect the same from you.. I do things different, you do things different.. Everything we say to each other must be kind, nice, appropriate and this will be the way I treat you forward.. and you are going to talk to me in a way that builds me up too.. You got that honey?” then go about your day… Learn to control your anger.. like.. I am going fishing.. When I get back in a hour.. Let’s both get back to loving each other.. (And I don’t mean sex)
If you cannot be quality.. anything less will bring you misery on top of misery… Like a computer program.. garbage in = garbage out. So know Quality!
Make your grief temporary.. this is not the end of the world.. Your good is coming.
[This message edited by trynhard at 3:22 PM, September 9th (Monday)]
You sound so very upset and angry.
My Sex therapist say woman read things.. how you behave, what you say.. and she interprets it into feelings.. Example.. If I show up late for work, do poor work.. a boss may say in his review.. You did this or that which is not what you must do to keep this job. A person on the receiving end of that comment may now have fears.. I am going to lose my job and even assume the boss is angry.. when in fact.. business is business.. he is trying to make the most money possible.. A person may think his boss is angered.. when it is really just business. Good business. A good boss will communicate in a way that does not strike fear in a person.. but builds them up to want to do better.
Today, I might have a M that is most desired by most. I could list the hundreds of things she now does to love me… I am not listing all the positives.. it would take a couple pages. I know this, to protect my M and myself, she is not doing all to a point she will never want to again cheat. Obviously, because one huge sign is a woman who initiates sex is attracted to you.
I think NJgal hits it.. she says.. Your W needs IC… of course she does..
I have no choice in my W seeking to be a quality woman. It is not my choice. It is only her choice. Should I insist, demand, manipulate a person to get help usually never works. In fact, it does not work. The must want to do it on there own.
The things I say to her, what I do may influence her to making a different choice.. and then become habit.. Hey, You want to be the best possible woman to me.. Here it is.. this is what you do.. it might be fun.. it might make us closer.. it might make you feel better.. if not.. then that’s ok too.. but I know..unsaid to my W, if a woman stops romancing you.. I am far more likely to do it too in kind. Been there done that.. and when I can feel it coming on.. I owe it to my W to let her know.. in a good way..
Well ATS.. A man with complete strong morality is rare. Odd are in my favor about what a man will do. Statistics are on my side. And the 40% who never cheat have something about them.. Some never get is a position where a sex good looking woman come on strong to them. They are good at avoiding a dangerous situation. Some men have all there needs met.. No chance they risk losing a woman who is filling all those holes. Some men might not need sex for physical reasons therefore they avoid it. Most men are not thinking What is that woman trying to wrangle? Most men only see is the honey hole.. and it is most powerful.
See, ATS.. you had a power within yourself to stop.. Most men won’t. Your own fears kicked in.. I have had the opportunity to discuss with many men who have cheated. We talk about he fog.. it is a fog. The emotions and feelings are that powerful… If a man is being told No to his sexuality, which is natural, his own self.. over and over.. or even never gets a BJ.. when a man who is has a hole.. then a woman starts to flirt with that man and it slips out how good she is sexually.. that emotion shakes a man to his core. And if the man has been filling his hole with porn.. watch out… His mind is being trained.
To recognize what is missing in your own sole, admit it, to then begin to do something about it.. in the most positive, less hurtful way is the best way. Once you know it.. it can give you strength to fight for it.
I just hope I can communicate in a way, and in a way she values me… because I know when we get to a point of ultimatum, rarely is it succesful.
[This message edited by trynhard at 4:05 PM, September 9th (Monday)]
Honest -- HI!!! I've missed you!!! Glad you are seeing WH for what he is. Be strong. ((hugs))
But I am moving on and asserting myself in new relationships with no intent to move beyond 'friends' for a long time if ever.
I've come to the conclusion that I really don't need women to be happy or to affirm my self worth.
The anger will fade with time, I hope.
Am I the only one with anger?
Is it out of line?
Am I the only one with anger?
Is it out of line?
MutedMan - No, I don't think your anger is out of line, at all. I went back and read some of your previous posts to get a feel for your story and your WS has certainly put you through the wringer. If ultimately you decided it was all too much, I could certainly see why. But between a post a year ago where you said you had responded to Craigslist ads, and the comments you made about your female friend, my fear for you was that you were allowing your anger to drive you in an unhealthy direction, such as a revenge A or a need for external validation, either of which would ultimately hurt you -- your own self-esteem and sense of integrity.
Petite - I can completely understand about putting up walls. I think it is a natural instinct. As Honest said, a form of self-protection.
She used to always say that it was only the woman's job to respond, not initiate
MC - As a woman, I call bull on this comment by your WS. I just do.
All my posts are edited - I hate typos. :)
On the other hand he says he stayed with me because of the kids and because he loves me.
I'm trying to work through this for some closure, making some sense of this. I don't know why I've been obsessing about this statement for the past few days. Thanks a lot.
In my opinion -your whole mindset is off. There is not one morsel of insight to be gained by trying to sort out the meaning behind what this man says. He is a manipulative, selfish liar.
He says what he needs to say at the moment. No reason to believe any of it.
Having said that:
If he hadn't M OW, we would be divorced by now and by M OW we stayed together.
This is supposed to make you feel better in his demented way of thinking - "see me having a double life/2 wives really was in your best interest - it kept us together!"
Is it true? Who cares? You need to stop caring about what he says about your relationship etc. It is 100% self serving nonsense!
On the other hand he says he stayed with me because of the kids and because he loves me.
Said to make you happy. Is it true? Who cares? I realize it's nice to know that he loved you - but you just need to stop caring and know that you have value and are a good mother, person, etc. on your own.
In my opinion, this is why you are analyzing these particular statements - you want to know that he loved or still loves you. You need to think about why that is so important to you and work through that. But, the bottom line is that you no longer have a relationship with this man. Do not allow his current or past comments to batter your self esteem.
He is not any indication of your value.
Edited to say that I would guess that many of us have these kind of questions & that many of our WS have said that they loved us during their A. Mine included. What he added,tho, I swear, was something like how you love your mother, but dont really want to hang out with her, lol. Now, after being separated, he denies he ever said anything like that & he would now say that he just didnt understand that the things he disliked in our relationship were just normal married with kids things.
In any event, I believe there was something there that kept them married & that would be different for each WS. Honest, Im sure he had an emotional attachment to you, my point is just that in your situation, you need to exorcise him from your head entirely. He is that toxic.
[This message edited by Allgoodnamesgone at 5:43 AM, September 10th (Tuesday)]
Listen to what Allgood says.
Let NPD say whatever he wants his actions speak volumes.
One of the main reasons that you have not divorced him is because you know that he will hide every penny in another country and will leave you and your boys penniless.
He lied to you about finances here and without your knowledge left you in debt and without any equity in your home.
He has 'married' OW in his home country and has fathered 3 children with her.
He has diverted time, energy, and money from you and your boys to support and care for his 'other' family.
None of these actions are those of a kind, loving man.
Personally, in this case, I think it might have been kinder for him to be honest about his feelings and divorcing early on.
Carrying on a double life like this where you and your boys get leftovers is not what a loving husband and father does.
And about your children being better off because he did not divorce you....
simply staying in the house is not the only thing that children need.
I think your boys are suffering emotionally as they watch the abuse the NPD dishes out to you and them.
Talk to your boys-ask them what they think you should do- I'm sure they would advise you to take a leap of faith and finally sever all ties with the NPD.
[This message edited by MutedMan at 6:49 AM, September 10th (Tuesday)]
If we D, it would have been bad for the kids.
On the other hand he says he stayed with me because of the kids and because he loves me.
When you think about it it's true. They manipulated us through lies and deceit for years to keep the LTA's going. When they aren't remorseful why would we expect them to change at all escpecially when they see us struggling and can use our own emotions, doubt, guilt, fear against us. Our reactions and feelings after Dday are just another tool for them to use in their arsenal of "assholeyness".
By assuming everything my unremorseful WS said was a lie it helped me get past worrying about anything she said at all and let me focus on what was important, getting out. Nothing your unremorseful WS says means anything. He likely doesn't even know what he is saying from moment to moment, just that is serves the purpose of keeping the status quo in place in his mind. I can't think of any definition of love in which a person that loves you and yrou children even the tiniest bit goes out and builds another family in another country and thinks it's acceptable.
Do what you need in your time but no more analyzing your WH, your analytical know how should be used to continue focusing on getting out of your situation and moving on. Keep at it honest.
I am trying to work on me.
Working on me.. OK.. that means..
OK.. I accept what has happened to me.. I give my W what she wants... Let her have it..
Yes.. this is sad.. It is not the end of the world.
The best thing for you to do is just not engage your W. Do nothing to show her any attention. Everything you do is to end the M.. Hold your head HIGH.. your good is coming. Most attractive right now for you...
- Read that 180 and do it.. do it nicely
- Go end it.. Get your attorney..
- Start doing all on your own.. DO NOT engage your W on thing but the business of ending it.
I am telling you this given to me by experts.. It is possible these actions will attract your W back into the M. If you wish.. make sure it is 100%.. if she starts to go there.. Honey, 100% in.. or I am not a man who can accept any less.. You are a man not wishy washy.. you know what it mean to be all in.. or nothing when it comes to M. It is your value.
She might try to make love to you.. one more time. Don't do it.. 100% or nothing.
Be strong.. strong is attractive.
Honest.. You cannot fix a NPD. Go find a starter job.. start to be independant.. get help from you sons.. Exit will bring you peace.. Allgood is strong.. Listen to her.. she is quality.. listen to her.. NJgal is most quality.. listen to her...7yrsflushe is strong.. Go be strong too.. strong will end all your grief!
Now, make today the new day for the rest of your life..
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:24 AM, September 10th (Tuesday)]
When you have had enough.. You make the choice to D.. You make it. Hold your head high brother...
I have discussed your situation with many men in your shoes. As men, masculine men.. We hold no punches.
For you own health..
W, I am D’ing.. IT is final and I have made my choice.
What is not manly is to do make this choice in secret. To surprise her is not masculine. If you truly made the decision.. Do not engage with your W unless it concerns the business of D. Yes.. be nice but make sure she knows your choice is final. You stay attached if you mislead your W.. You keep her engaged; your feelings cannot and will not change.
If you are still cuddling, still spending quality time, still giving gifts.. services.. Then you are still loving your W. This means you are misleading your W and this is not quality. I know when you work on yourself.. it means everything you do is above board… You have the courage to make it plain. You stop giving your STBXW any blessings. That is the fair thing no matter how unfairly she treated you over the years.
You know my opinion.. It is not wrong to have an attractive woman friend. Your values are strong.. Sex with this new woman would be infidelity until the D is final. Even when it is final.. Sex is a mental connection. You had better be darn sure this woman is quality in every way.. or misery will come you way again.
Strong is moving forward in life.. Say ouch.. control your emotions and do not get rattled.. Once you get through this temporary time of some discomfort.. if you behave right.. your good will come.
my 2 cents..
Go up to your spouse.. Place your arms around them... and look into there eyes until it gets a bit awkward. The you give them a good long make out kiss.
When was the last time you did that? Did you do that throughout your whole M? if you did, hats off to YOU. You have been quality!
How will they react? Make them react to you.
A man might think this is a signal for sex.. And that is ok.. if you want that.. but this man is trained to read that signal.. It is ok to just say.. Honey… I just wanted to kiss you.
A spouse may push away.. If they do.. then say.. Sweetie.. I kiss you because I love you. I want to kiss you and for our M, the good of both of us.. this is a good thing.
Try this every other day.. See the results.. it most likely won’t be bad.. If is bad.. Then something is really wrong in their choice to participate in the M. You then have a problem..
You can then not get angry.. but communicate effectively.. safely.. give it some time.. slowly but postitively.. bring them back home.. When both mutually want the same.. communicate that way.. and in most all M they do come home.. you won't need to start conlicts taking away blessings..
Let me tell you what new relationships have.. They embrace each other and make out. Why do we stop that after a vow? After a few years?
Protect your M today.. behave lovingly.. Mske that the new you.. naturally.. That is what YOU control.
[This message edited by trynhard at 9:27 AM, September 10th (Tuesday)]
I can't thank you enough for helping me see the truth.
Miracle has said to me in the past that I see the truth and then hide my head in the sand. I guess I couldn't face it all. All of it was too traumatic to fully deal with and all my FOO issues and past betrayals were rearing their ugly heads.
I am less fearful now. I'm not hiding my head anymore. Before I was not seeing the forest for the trees. The trees were scary enough. Now I'm looking at the whole forest and it's worse than Mirkwood (or Mordor which is a decimated place with pure evil)
I also feel I've been emotionally abused very badly and actually might have had a very unhealthy addiction to NPD's charm and lies.
That is what I have to focus on.
He did fix the pool and the backyard, but I feel it was for him so he could invite his relatives over and look good. Looking good is ever important to him and one has to know one's enemy's weaknesses.
D is hard enough, but I have to deal with this NPD....There is no winning in the sitch. I am not trying to win anything, but my freedom and sanity. and even that is going to be hard.
DS18 and DS15 are so happy he has left. They can't stand him anymore. DS 18 is saying that NPD was never around and now all of a sudden he's interested or acts like he cares what is happening in his life?
The saddest thing is that when I read what Tryn says about being a quality woman, I was. I really was. I'm not perfect, but NPD was always my priority with everything.
He sucked me dry. My IC said I was like an Energizer battery that kept going and going, giving and giving.
But now that battery has run dry and there is not much left for me, if anything. I hope I can be a rechargeable battery!
He did fix the pool and the backyard, but I feel it was for him so he could invite his relatives over and look good.
Glad he helped you out - but that's where it ends. Dont read more into it.
Looking good is ever important to him and one has to know one's enemy's weaknesses.
Doesnt look too good to leave your children without a penny, does it?
I still get afraid that he will cut us all off because when his NPD ego gets injured, he will do things like that to people. I have often heard him say over the years that he will "teach so and so a lesson" where I would try to talk sense to him, and felt at the time it was only the anger speaking, when it was not.
I thought most people were honest. I know there were many times that I have been angry and have said that I would love to punch someone or whatever, but of course NEVER in a million year would I carry it through. NPD would carry things through.
I married a demon.
do u have a job right now? If so, what kind of job is it, and if not, why not?
I am not sure that unending giving absent reciprocity is a good thing. Sad to say, and I tell my employees this all the time, people do not value what they get for free as much as what they have to pay for, even if the latter is inferior.