hat a mensch you are
Happy New Year. And I hope that the coming year is filled with sweetness for all those wonderful folks in this tribe
Sadly, while she acknowledges my decision to D she continues to pretend, wants to cuddle, be intimate and pretend everything is pre-D day.
It's recommended around here all the time that you take some time to focus on you. I did that and found that I had some severe codependant tendencies. I could look back and see them in just about every relationship I had. That had nothing to do with my WW's decision to have A's but looking into that for me helped me move forward. If I had been dating someone prior to doing the 180 and filing I probably wouldn't have done any of that work on me and ended up right back in the same situation at some point in the future.
Another thing to thinnk about is if you are truly done then go ahead and file but understand that your WW believes you are seeign someone so she may try to use that against you. In her mind what you are doing is no different than what she did. Only you know what is truly happening. But to a lawyer it won't matter especially if you live in a fault state. So if you want to file IMO go ahead and do it, get the best deal you can for yourself and your children THEN start dating once all the paperwork and agreements are done.
Your WW will feel like you having a friend is punishing her and if you are getting a D it's truly none of her business but if she is pissed at you it won't make the D and the negotiating go any easier. However having an EA, if that's what this is, won't help either one of you. I get wanting her to feel how you felt even just a bit but it won't help in the long run. Just my 2 cents and I wish you the best.
[This message edited by MutedMan at 9:59 AM, September 5th (Thursday)]
I agree with you that beginning to date or even have 'friendships' with members of the opposite before the divorce is final just muddies the water.
It gives the WS an easy excuse and a reason to point fingers.."see? you're doing the same thing." or "you're doing even worse because now you are impacting any chance of R" blah blah blah.
You give the WS an excuse and a reason to feel less guilty.
And even if the BS does not admit it I think there is a bit of trying to 'get even' in the whole thing and that never works out well.
she attacked me for venting to a friend whose wife got wind of my unhappiness, she does not tolerate me reading or writing on this forum...
I think where people get stuck is this: they give all sorts of reasons for having an affair but they’re not “really” the reasons. They say, “my husband beat me so I had an affair.” No, you had an affair because you didn’t know how to handle the stress in your life. You felt powerless so you took it upon yourself to get some power. You turned to someone else to feel good (be that validation or whatever) because you felt crappy. Doesn’t really matter HOW you got to crappy.
But what we DO need to figure out is why we turned in the affair direction, instead of a healthier direction such as IC – that’s what the WS needs to figure out. That’s the why. Not, “he did this so that’s why I did that” thing…
I read this in Wayward and think this is the best "WHY" response I have seen on SI! It says what I have been trying to convey to my WH since Dday (Feb 7/07) but have not been able to.
What do my LTA tribe think about this?
"Oh, why do my actions have consequences?" ~ Homer Simpson
"She knew my one weakness: That I'm weak!" ~ Homer Simpson
But, whatever it was I believe that its very important for the WS to figure it out and not to sweep it under the rug !
My FWH went to IC immediately after d-day. Luckily, he found a good one-someone who understood infidelity as well as alcoholism and even knew a lot about PTSD (so he ended up explaining to my FWH what I was going through post d-day).
My FWH went to IC 2x per week for 6 months and then 1x per week for another year.
It was intensive.
He also went to a psychiatrist who did some counseling with him and prescribed meds.
And...most importantly for him-he got sober and went to AA. At first he went to 90 meetings in 90 days.
He still attends AA once a week now (it's over 6 yrs now since d-day).
I often repeat my mantra to newbies on SI.
IC for my self and for my FWH saved our marriage.
We could not have reconciled without IC, MC, and of course the benefits of AA for him.
[This message edited by njgal480 at 8:04 PM, September 6th (Friday)]
Well.. lostsoul, IMO.. RachelC’s message to a WS is exactly what I am trying to say us LTA folks… STOP LOOKING at the faults of your spouse, and look only at the faults of YOURSELF.
This is exactly my same message for all us LTA folks. Why did we accept so many things? What was it about ourselves we did not stand up for the ideal M? What fears do we have?
I will use my own M as an example.. I am in a very loving M right now. But yes, holes are missing and been missing for a long time.
MC.. you asked what has precipitated me at this time? Well.. I have no more fears over being single… and I have come to realize that my whole marriage I never expected much from my W. My values have changed…
What was it about me that I accepted my W being a non-contributor initiating sex? Our whole marriage.
First.. I thought it was ok for me, as a man, to be the only one who initiated. It is not. I filled that hole in fantasy… fantasy with other woman… porn.. the safe sex right… Some will argue that is OK.. if my W is ok.. No, it’s not ok for me.
My W is going to fill this hole in me.. or she will no longer be my W. The hole is a deep emotional need for most men. They want a sexy, flirty, interesting.. initiating sexual W.. Just never saying no is not enough.
See. I am doing exactly what RachelC is saying… Turning to a healthier direction. BTW.. I do have a sex therapist.
I have told my W it would make me feel good if she initiated sex. She has no clue the depth of what she needs to do to keep me. A healthy direction is to build on me.. within me.. to make sure that hole is filled in my own life. All I can do is communicate the most effective way and BE ATTRACTIVE.. Communicate most attractive… I have no idea the decisions and choices my W will make. It will hurt a bit should she make the wrong choice, but I can handle my own hurt.
I am presenting myself in two ways…
- I am the foundation for meeting all of her needs of love, affection, affirmation, admiration, physical intimacy.. etc..
- She is going to see me as this source or her fears will come out.. She is going to lose me… She must also be worthy and make the strong effort.
Imagine that? A man who will give his W every opportunity to fill his sexual needs before he seeks a new woman.. (BTW..men have A’s for sex. Just sex… right ladies?) How about a man cannot be tricked by any woman who needs holes filled in her life?
So.. My W and I went out to the casino the last Friday.. I took that opportunity to place the satellite radio on the Dr. Jenn.. Love and Sex show.. I was hoping nothing infidelity popped up.. I would have said I had enough of that show and grabbed her hand to tell her she is a good woman.. but I was lucky.. A woman came on complaining about her man. He was not doing something.. She said.. just talk to him that should he do those things.. it fills a need of yours and makes you feel super good.. In fact it does.. Then when he does it on his own.. give him a blow job! I could not have asked for a better segment… LOL
My W busted out with a laugh.. I turned to her.. said, damn straight all men want a blow for being good men.. and they don’t want to asked for it either… they want because there woman WANTS to give it to them on their own.. And that is what I want from YOU..
Well. Needless to say.. the rest of the ride went silent on the way home. Awkward… No sex this week. A timely infection … And me, I just doing my best to fill all her holes.. and doing a damn good job at it. I know my W.. She will tell me.. with a smile.. no more infection. That will be her signal that it is OK for me to initiate.. When she says that.. I am going to tell her.. So you want me? Take those pants off right now and let me F your brains out. If it is a no..
So.. it is ok for me to initiate and not you? Honey.. we can love each other in ways that make us feel good.. both of us, you loving me and me loving you.. me initiating sex.. you doing the same for me.. because we both want that… and that is the way a good solid M is supposed to be… Teach me something.. Teach me how to never initiate sex. (Do you now get the types of pressure) Who knows what she will say to that.
[This message edited by trynhard at 6:27 AM, September 6th (Friday)]
Tryn, are you and your W going to sex therapy together or still going to MC? For some reason your W is having trouble initiating sex, and I wonder if it's something deep inside of her that she is having trouble with...like some FOO issues, and not because she is not wanting you? Some deep set feeling that she has not dealt with about a man initiating and not a woman?
As to the discussion about Match.com.....
If one wanders to the S/D area of SI, one will see that the strong advice is to not date for a long time (sometimes a year) AFTER D.
I am speaking from experience. This is my second M.
Although we have gone through a great trauma with an LTA, and its horrible aftermath: false R, trickle truth, gaslighting etc., going through a D is another trauma to get through, even if you want it.
You get enough strength to go through it, and then when the D is final, there's another set of things to get used to.
CHANGE, whether it is good or bad is stressful.
You must heal yourself before you try to meet someone else. Haven't we all wanted our WS read "Not Just Friends"?
Match.com is for people who want to date, who are looking for someone romantically. If we are going through a D, we are not ready to give to any kind of relationship, we have to fully heal ourselves. Talking to someone of the opposite sex is starting on a slippery slope that is not fair to you or the other party.
I know how validating it is to have someone find you attractive, to talk to someone who understands, but unless you are healed yourself completely, you are going to end up making the same mistakes you made in the first M and attracting someone like your first S, no matter how much you don't intend to.
I met and married current WH too fast after WH#1 left. I wasn't completely healed. He gave me great validation and I ate it up like a starved person. I thought he was different, but, actually he was worse!!
Meetup.com is a great choice for anyone. It is not a dating site. There are meetups for all kinds of people for any kind of activity you are interested in. You can meet people and make friends of all sorts. There are meetups for those who like to walk, hike, bike, like dogs, play chess, knit, draw, go to museums, etc. It can help you find YOU again. Give yourself validation.
As for me, NPD is STILL here. Trying to stay sane so I can go on and start my own path. Realizing things about myself that I have to work on.
So many of you have helped a great deal. Sometimes I "hear" certain things that some of you wise folks have said. I often hear Ats' quote, "You can't 'nice' yourself back into a marriage." I was hearing Tryn's message about being the most attractive person you can be for YOU when I wanted to just sit and cry the other day and decided to be ME and work on being a better ME for ME and not just feel victimized.
Never feel that no one wants to read your story, or you are taking up the boards. There are so many times that what you have to say helps other people. When I read DH's posts , I feel like I'm reading mine and it makes me see my sitch better.
The wisest people listen to advice from many and then try to make their own decision. The advice and support from here has helped me survive and is helping me finally move on and start to face my fears.
Why did we accept so many things? What was it about ourselves we did not stand up for the ideal M? What fears do we have?... and I have come to realize that my whole marriage I never expected much from my W. My values have changed… What was it about me that I accepted [or thought ok for ]my W being a non-contributor initiating sex? Our whole marriage.
^^^yep. And yes I do want more. I have raised the bar very high.
I wonder if it's something deep inside of her that she is having trouble with..some deep set feeling that she has not dealt with about a man initiating...
^^^yep. In fact it was a topic of conversation this morning. My blinders are off. I see now that she was kind of frigid our 1st year of M, heck after we got engaged. She used to always say that it was only the woman's job to respond, not initiate. In the A, she got to play that game in spades (never ever calling or texting first). I told her that I want an answer. Does/did she have some secret shame about her sexuality? some FOO idea that sex is just a medium of exchange? She asked, 'well is it an issue now?' and I told her not really, since she initiates, but I have a long back log of pain I am trying to understand, and that also I wanted to rid my head of her harmful initiator/responder role idea from my head as it is unhealthy, hurtful, passive aggressive, and plain wrong as it serves to abdicate responsibility for the relationship.
Guys, I am struggling right now looking for closure...not really the 'why' anymore, but some question that I can not articulate...that is in relation to both the A and my whole M history.
Interesting comment from MC last month in a solo session: we were discussing the uproar from the first part of the year with me talking to the other BS and reporting back various things. My MC told me she would not have told the other BS, but for a reason I would not have expected. She said it would be because she would not have wanted the affair partner to be free via divorce to pursue he spouse. I told her that if my WW wanted this guy, she could have him. I wanted to be first choice, not be the 2nd choice that wins because OM is unavailable. Funny thing - it struck me how on many of the threads here the BWs are very fixated on the OW and the idea of 'winning', like the WH is some hapless pawn. The BMs seem content fixating on fixing WWs. Human behavior is interesting.
it really is somewhat empowering when you put yourself in the drivers seat.....unfortuately it doesn't last long...
tryn: i don't see you openly communicating with your wife, you are still only telling her half truths and not the full extent of how strongly you feel about her initiating....she has a right to know just how serious this is for you.....she may not be capable of doing what you want....and she should have the option of seeking help to try to give you what you want...
personally...i think it would be a crappy reason to end a marriage....there are some women who just can't be the initiator.....not me personally, but i have and had friends who couldn't because of there own issues of "good girls" just don't do that.....and add in the fact that she wasnt a "good girl".....and needs to be a "good girl" now to salvage her marriage.....you might just get the good girl who doesn't say no unless she feels she has a reason (sickness) that gives her an "honest" out.....and while she may not have been an initiator in her "a", her "a" was pure fantasy and not based in reality....when people get to pretend it means that they don't have to identify with who they pretend to be, you get to play this part and when the part is over, its over and its not who you really perceive yourself to be...
anyways...tryn....you need to talk to your wife...you are not being the best you you can be withholding your needs, (the depth of your needs) and withholding your own fears....
lostsuol: hello old friend....as to the whys?....f course we want to know why, personally though for me...i wanted to know all the whys, every single one of them....for me it would have been the only way to show me that he was trying to get to the bottom of each and every reason to disect it so that each issue can be resolved and/or at least worked out....
and yes he would need to identify each justification he gave himself, so that he could "see" that each justification was unwarranted, wrong and nothing more then a justification and not a "right" or a " privilege he was entitled to"....
and yes mc....human behavior can be interesting and it could also be sad, infuriating and fustrating when its a behavior you yourself cannot fathom!!!
Your MC's advise about not telling the BS is not the best.
Something that I have learned about counselors and therapists is that contrary to what we may assume-they do not know everything.
I first realized this when dealing with a very serious issue with my teenage daughter.
I was surprised that not all of the professionals that I sought out were knowledgeable about this issue.
I had to do a lot of research to find the right one.
The same is true with MCs-you would think that they would all know everything there is to know about infidelity-but they don't.
Why fear that telling the other BS about the infidelity will drive the affair partners into each other arms when the statistics show that a very very small percentage of affair partners end up getting married? I think it's only 5% or less?
I'm surprised that your MC does not know this.
The attraction of the affair is the fact that it is forbidden and not attainable. And the affair partners often wear a mask during the affair and play out roles that are nothing near who they are in real life.
In my FWH's case for example... 1/2 of the affair encounters were quick drunken BJs in the front seat of a car in a bar parking lot while other co-workers were in the bar at happy hour.
And the other 1/2 of the encounters were stolen moments late at night (again drunken) in hotels after a full day of work conferences etc. where they did not really interact at all.
Many LTAs are like this.
There is no real life interaction.
As soon as the OW starts asking the affair partner to take out the garbage-the excitement of the affair fizzles.
And the same is true for the OM....when the affair partner realizes that he has a ton of strange quirks etc. the fantasy disappears.
That's why they rarely end up together.
( I know... in Honest's case he did but I'm generalizing here).
So IMHO the best thing a BS can do is to out the affair to everyone. The sooner reality hits the faster the affair ends and then there is a possibility of healing.
I wonder if your MC has read 'Not Just Friends' by Shirley Glass?
I was surprised that not all of the professionals that I sought out were knowledgeable about this issue.
^^^ true, surprising at first, disappointing. I have posted before how my wife's IC for the year before the start of the A and for the first year of the A (long distance ES only at the time) really enabled her behavior and thinking. She encouraged my WW to take risks and try new things with OM as some way of 'growing' emotionally or something as a way to warm up to communicating to me. After all per that IC, it is 'good to have a friend'. Whatever.
So, in an MC appt. a couple of weeks ago, we mentioned this old IC, at which point I asked my MC and WW if it was ok for me to have sex with a couple of other women since I wanted to learn to 'take some risks' and 'try new things'. It was a good laugh.
[This message edited by MC_Jack at 10:33 AM, September 7th (Saturday)]
His advice was awful.
He related totally with my FWH and just kept advising me to brush everything under the rug and forget about it.
He even got so worked up one time with my crying and carrying on that he raised his voice to me! Saying:'" What else can he do at this point?" pointing at my husband....
it was quite a lovely scene.
I can't believe that we stayed with this guy for 3 months but...you live and learn.
Our next MC was much better. But, in our case I think that individual counseling was the most important in our being able to heal.
I'm glad that your MC was/ is supportive of your actions post d-day.
But, I'm still surprised that she wasn't aware of the statistics-very few affair partners get married.
So that should not be a concern when outing the affair to all parties.
iwam, good encouragement, tryn do u need it? I pretty much agree with your take on self-improvement, no longer enabling shitty behavior, being attractive, but are you avoiding telling W about the full scope of your needs? And I mean via discussion and not pressure?
I actually confronted the MC right there in his office during the session where he lost his temper with me!
Here my FWH was very humble and willing to listen to me process the LTA and this MC had had enough!
So...I looked him in the eye and told him that I thought he was relating only to my husband's situation and that made me think that he was a WS.
He sputtered and tried to talk his way out of it but if he were not a former cheater he would have come right out and said that and then said something like- it did not necessarily mean that he could not be fair in his counseling sessions etc.
His reaction said it all. My FWH agreed.
This MC had zero understanding of the trauma model in regards to the BS after infidelity.
So, that was our last session with him.
I later wanted to write him a letter about how damaging his approach was to my healing from the LTA but he had closed his office.
I got the idea of writing the letter from a book.
I think it may have been in one of the books by Spring-either After the Affair or How Can I Forgive You? (most likely that book).
There was a story of a woman that had a terrible IC and she wrote a letter to her years later describing her experience in the hope that the therapist would not repeat the behavior.
and the beat goes on.....