Iíve been thinking about the 80/20 rule. Paretoís law says that 20% provides the margin while the 80% provides the humdrum day to day. And thatís how I think of myself and MOW. I was meeting 80% of WHís needs on a day to day basis, his basic requirements. MOW gave him the 20% missing and that 20% was actually worth MORE to him than my 80%, she had more value. Or so he thought. But if you lose the 80%, you are left relying on the 20% which isnít enough and not guaranteed. Am I making sense? Rambling again, my brain wonít stop
Yes, I agree UKgirl, except it took more than one ow to supply the other 20%
He really did not like it when the 80% was gone....
Anyway can anyone meet ALL someone elses needs? I don't plan on ever trying.
I plan on trying to meet only my needs from now on...
I hope I can meet 80%
After dday so many of us want to make the M better. But we don't have the issues. The WSs do. The only way the M can recover is if THEY do. Those WSs who convince themselves that the problem is in the M, not them, will never be worth keeping.
It is quite simply up to the WS to fix their issues.
They have to have the WILL to do it and they have to find the WAY. We cannot do it for them. We can help and encourage but it has to be what THEY want.
It is quite simply up to the WS to fix their issues.
They have to have the WILL to do it and they have to find the WAY. We cannot do it for them. We can help and encourage but it has to be what THEY want.
Thank you Laura.
I spent my time in IC continuing the theme of how do I figure out what I want. So as far as WW and R, I am trying to figure out what I want from her in terms of her fixing her issues and if what I want is realistic.
Using a gold mining metaphor, I seem to want her to be going after it with a huge open pit crater and tonka toy vehicles the size of football fields. She seems content (whether due to limits on capability, willingness, or external constraints) to be digging away in the mine shaft with an ice cream scooper. She is a model for R in all other ways. Like one of the men said in resignation on the BM thread, due to his WW's abuse and neglect as a child, she is only capable of so much as an adult. I am wondering about my WW's capability and willingness levels.
Happy Friday all!!!
Glad your surgery went well trust -- hang in there DH --
I hope burning the journals was cathartic for you. Closed that chapter, I suppose? I locked all my stuff away and havenít looked at any of itÖ I suppose I should shred them as I donít want the boyos Ė or anyone, actually Ė reading my emotional vitriol. Just havenít gotten the urge to do that yet.
Bless you, honey. I hope everything is going well. Get well and try to occupy your mind with healing more than with detective work. Surround yourself with those who love you and help you, and keep those who harm you at a distance if at all possible. Iím not talking specifically about WH, but anyone who is not helpful to you right now. You need to heal!
I did in-house separation for seven months (holy crap!) from the time I announced my intention to D until the time the D was final and I moved into my new home. For a couple of months, it was truly awkwardÖ I announced the D to Daffy at the beginning of November (start of the holiday seasonÖ because I am all about good timing!) and we went to a child counselor to figure out how to best go about the whole process. She said to wait until school was back in session in January so that they wouldnít forever equate the holidays with their parents getting divorced. (Seems to have worked, BTW.) So for a couple of months, we were still ďsharingĒ the master bedroom. There was a lot of sleeping on the couch going on! I moved into the guest room after announcing the D to the boyos and that was a real relief, concentrated on the boyos and got involved in a bunch of activities whenever Daffy was home. Hikes, walking the dog, book club, going out with friendsÖ spending a lot of time at the grocery store even worked! When we were both in the house after the boyos went to bed, I spent my time in another room whenever possible. I love reading, so it wasnít hard to find a new room when he came into my space.
The biggest thing for me, though, was that I was D.O.N.E. I had no feelings left for Daffy. He was, in fact, dating his COW before the D was final and I knew it and didnít careÖ just told him that I knew and I would continue to care for the boyos so he could go out and bang her, but if he brought her into the same zip code as my children, I would make sure that everyone knew who she was and what they both had done (which I had not shared with many people out of fear that the boyos would find out). Daffy prizes his Mr. Nice Guy image above everything, so
Pie Jesu! The man is like a cockroach! One, then two, then millions swarming all over the place! Ugh!!! Iím glad youíve come to the conclusion that this must end. Let us know how we can help!
Did you see m3ís question at the end of page 1? I hadnít noticed that. Interesting, if true.
She does seem to have flipped back into her junior-high persona. I meanÖ leaving your husband stranded in another city because he has displeased you by not stroking your delicate girlish ego hard enough in front of his co-workers at a business event is NOT NORMAL behavior. Not. Normal. And certainly not excusable.
Funny, I have recently found the menz thread, too! I feel like Iím hiding in the closet in the treehouse, listening to what the boys are saying. Itís quite enlightening. And I totally agree about the BS looking to fix the M when itís really up to the WS to fix him-/herself. Ms can always be better. Always! But it canít be healthy if one (or both) parties are sick. And thereís that old saying, ďYou can lead a horse to water, but if you hold its head under to force it to drink, eventually itíll drown and then all youíve got is a big olí dead horse.Ē Or something like that.
I like your gold mining metaphor. Daffy sat back and occasionally picked up handfuls of dirt and talked about how big the pit was and how hard he was working while I shoveled.
Miss ya, honey! Baby steps!!!
Of course we all know that nobody can meet all of someone elseís *needs* all the time. Especially when that someone else has decided that his/her *needs* include glitter-farting unicorns romping in the back yard of his/her marshmallow house in Lollipop Land. *Need*ing me to be an equal, loving partner and not act like a jackass, yes. I can absolutely do that most days. I can do lots more much of the time. Sometimes I will fall ill and not be able to do my 50 percent or I will have a completely crappy day and a little unloving jackass will leak out. Then I apologize and do better. *Need*ing me to take care of all the household chores, child-rearing responsibilities, family obligations AND become Vagera The Ego-Stroking Wonderslut every night whilst being ignored or insulted every day is quite beyond my abilities. (Itís good to know oneís limitations, eh?)
About Fatherís/Motherís Day,
I have two elementary-aged kids. They cannot get themselves to the store to pay for gifts for their dad out of their dog-walking money (or whatever). So I take them to the store and say, okay, pick out cards for your dad and a present. And I pay for it. Thatís it. He does the same for Motherís Day. Anything else is unnecessary IMHO. I canít remember buying him Fatherís Day cards when we were married, either. I think in general thereís a school of thought that goes, ďwhy would I buy you a card; youíre not my parent!Ē and actually I think thatís perfectly okay. It doesnít equate to ďIím going to completely ignore the entire day and not help the kids make it special for you.Ē But itís sort of like the do you or donít you make a big deal about Valentineís Day question. Some people do, some donít, and I think itís a question of making sure each person in the relationship (and co-parents are in a relationship, make no mistake!) has the same expectation and responsibility.
Unless you donít give a flying fig, in which case I guess you donít even bother to ask the question.
Hugs to the tribe! Special Happy Fatherís Day hugs to our brothers with kiddos!
I have been reading the BM thread a lot lately. I see so much wisdom. Sadly, as a female I cannot belong but I relate to so much of what I read there.
Laura you are so right, there are some great posts there. While it is a betrayed men forum, so many of the posts you can simply take WW/BH and substitute it for WH/BW and they apply just the same. It's been hard to keep up with lately but even when I get behind on that thread I try to make sure I don't miss any WAL posts. He puts so many great posts up that I spend time thinking about. There are other great people who post frequently on there too.
I could tell she was upset about something. When we would talk plans for the night she would say "whatever, I am ok with whatever you want". This almost always means she is angry or upset, but she will not admit it.
Yeh my WW does this. Usually what she means is: *You had better do what I want you to do (even though I have not told you what that is) or I will make your life a living hell*.
My solution has been to stop giving a damn what she wants. If she wants to get on the crazy train she can ride alone.
She said to wait until school was back in session in January so that they wouldnít forever equate the holidays with their parents getting divorced.
ETA: DS is 8 and DD is 6.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 3:08 PM, June 14th (Friday)]
Don't know your kids' ages, but with us, the younger was like, "OK... is that it? Can I go play now?" The older just wanted to know WHY? (Adult problems between adults, and the adults decided this was the solution. We both love you and etc.) BUT WHY? (Same answer.) OK BUT WHY? (Same answer.)
I gave that same damn "adult" answer over and over but by day three Daffy decided to improvise and tell the older that "Mom and Dad have different goals." Which I overheard the older repeating to his friend, along with the older's example of what different goals means: different vacations and stuff.
Nell was not pleased.
ETA: The boyos are really exceptionally well adjusted. Happy people who have two different bedrooms and probably wish their parents still lived together but can we go play now?
[This message edited by ImNellNow at 3:06 PM, June 14th (Friday)]
either way, or even if its not either...
(((trust))) so happy your surgery went well...praying for your recovery and that whatever is goin on with your liver is dealt with with a great outcome...
(((honest))) what a sucky thing for your ws to do to your son...while i am over the moon for you not having to deal with him and them, your poor kid......that just sucks moose eggs....
and divorcing or at least taking those steps before years end i think is a wonderful idea and i for one will be in your corner rooting for you and your boys...
hi nell, waving arms about me wildly...i missed you too and how wonderful it is to be reading your words again...love the way you write girl...
(((7 years))) sending hugs for strength in telling the kids...hope it goes well
hello thinking clear and welcome to our corner....and wow, thats an awful lot of reading...i always said i would go back the very beginning to read, but i never did, so more power to ya hon....and whenever youre ready post away
memory shot on everything else i read....
to all our wonderful lta menz....HAVE THE HAPPIEST, MOST AWESOMEST DAD'S DAY EVER
and ladies....may you all have a peaceful one!!!
(((7yrs)))...I know this will be so hard. I also had to tell my DS8 when I decided to D XWH#1. It was the hardest thing to do and of course XWH#1 blamed me and still does because I filed. I am sending you lots of mojo that this goes as well as possible for you.
(((ats)))...I can't believe she left you there and embarrassed you in front of your co-workers. It sounds like she still has some serious issues she needs to deal with.
(((Honest)))...Hang in there. It will get better with each passing day.
(((ukgirl)))... I know your emotions are all over the place right now. Losing your Mom is so hard to do. I remember feeling like I had lost the one person in the world that loved me unconditionally. It always hurts, but with time it does get better and you tend to think of happier times that you spent with her. My Mom will always be in my heart even if she is no longer here with me except in spirit. I know she watches over me still and that is a comfort to me especially now.
Here is wishing all our great LTA guys a VERY HAPPY FATHER"S DAY!!!!
UKgirl-Sorry that you are in such pain after the loss of your mom.And of course, that pain triggers painful thoughts about the LTA.
Your comments about the 80% vs 20% is so true for almost all of the WS.
They all claim they were unhappy during the affair years...whether they blamed the spouse or not.
They were unhappy with their lives, jobs, marriages, general lot in life...many were dealing with serious issues at home-a spouse's illness, a child's illness, financial problems, job loss etc.
In other words-life.
And they had some kind of idea that unless they were 100% happy every minute of the day then there was something lacking.....
and they either sought out an affair or (like in my FWH's case) were not able to pass up an opportunity that came about at this point in their lives.
They were not 100% unhappy....
I asked my FWH the question after d-day- how would he have described his marriage to someone during the affair years? and he said he would have described himself as happily married...hmmm
but, like you said... he was out looking for that 20% of excitement.
I disagree when you say that they valued it more than the other 80%- I think the WS knows how valuable that is to them...otherwise they would have left.
2yrs+- I agree with you. It is unrealistic for any of us to expect anyone to meet all of our needs and to make us happy.
Happiness really does come from within.
7yrs- Keeping you in my thoughts this weekend. Hope the talk with your children goes OK.
Honest- when is your NPD returning? soon?
I think your DS reaction to the news of his father not attending his graduation says it all. Your boys have grown up. They have seen his bad behavior and disrespectful attitude. I know they will support your decision to divorce!
STBX will be moving out this Friday. The kids will be spending the night at a friends house so they won't see her moving but it's pretty hard not to miss all the boxes around while she is packing. Not sure what to expect from them when she actually moves out even though they have been by to see her house being buit and they understand they will have 2 homes now. They had lots of questions about routines and whether they would have to change schools etc. We answered all those and just kept reassuring them that we still loved them. After about an hour things calmed down and then next morning things seemed normal. My kids were good and well adjusted before. No real behavioral problems but I am not making any assumptions. I will be watching to see how they adjust. We already discussed putting them in counseling if they needed it.
Beyond the obvious the only other truly negative thing about that night was STBX and I had to actually talk to each other. I guess she thinks things are "cool" again because she has been trying to talk to me again and even asked me questions about the room sizes in her new house and the kids furniture for it. I didn't bite though. I shut that down and went back to ignoring her. I am so far past the even remotely caring stage but I do have this morbid curiosity abotu hwo things will work out for her. It's like watching a car wreck in slow motion. you see it coming but I have no intention of intervening to try to stop it. She will FINALLY gets a taste of reality. She has never lived on her own so good luck with those maintenance issues that coem with a house and those unforseen expenses. The kids will always have a home with me so if she crashes and burns so be it. Okay data dumping those thoughts and back to being good and impartial .
I plan on keeping the same routines and things in place with the kids. They will have stability and rules in at least one house. Now I just need this week to hurry up and go by so I can finally be free. The kids will be with her next week so I will be purging and cleaning my house. Thanks again for the good vibes all.
[This message edited by 7yrsflushed at 7:57 AM, June 17th (Monday)]
It is part of my forgiving my wife.
I say nothing or do nothing to make her feel guilty
I erase all records of wrong.
Sure, the memories will always be with me.. the attempt is to make this all forgettable.. for when the thoughts come, they go quickly away. For months and months I had all these un-peaceful thoughts.. I am ending them. Itís time for me.
Peace to you all!
tryn, I really hope for peace for you, your W, and your family. You have earned it.
DH -- I'll give you advice: the best you'll get (if I do say so myself) Don't stalk OW's FB page.
I've been reading the Betrayed Men thread for years. It's very wise. Could we not call it the BM thread though?
Anyway during the hysterectomy they saw the damage to my liver and the size of my liver and called in another surgeon to do a biopsy. I saw her yesterday for the results. My liver damage was not caused by alcohol, but something else. Since my diagnosis with the auto immune blood disorder a few months ago (my body has created antibodies that distroy my platelets causing me not to clot well) they are finally convinced that this is a genetic disorder, don't know what triggers it, but my body is also attacking my liver and has been for a about the last 10yrs. My liver is now in really bad shape according to this surgeon due to the autoimmune response. Since she is a General surgeon and not a specialist in this she could only tell me very much and is waiting on the final pathology report for staging before she refers me to more specialists. While goggling this it looks like my prognosis is not good and that a liver transplant is the only likely cure.Reading about that sounded like a nightmare itself.
I was so mad when I left the surgeons office. Not at her, but at the other doctors before her, and mostly at my WH#2. He deserted me during a time that I really needed him to be there for me so he could be with OW. He treated me horribly during this time now looking back. He treated me like I had done something wrong even though I knew I hadn't. He screamed at me about the medical bills, even though he has never paid any of them. He thought they could sue us and had been in the process of getting me on his insurance when I was care flighted. It was finally approved because we had already started the process, but they still refused to pay a lot of the expenses. The more I thought about all this, the angrier it made me. Then the realization of what I will be facing with this man who was not there for me before made me cry all the way home. I hardly ever cry anymore, I refuse to, but yesterday I lost it. I was still crying when he got home from work.
He of course says we will do what we have to do and that I am strong and will be just fine. He never once apologized for how he had treated me and had his affair during my hospitalizations or how he had lied to people about me.
Like I told him I had been ashamed and embarrased by these doctors and other people who more or less told me I had brought this on myself.I had even half convinced myself that I had. Now at least I know that I in no way caused this to happen and I am not to blame. I told him I had been embarrassed that people that knew me and knew my career (RN)thought I was some kind of drunk. That these doctors never did all of the tests that were needed before they diagnosed me. That at least now I had proof that what I had been saying all along was true. That it still didn't take away the hurt I felt when no one but my PCP who I knew and worked with for years was the only one who believed me. His hands were however tied and he had to go on what the so called specialist at the time said and do the treatments they recommended, which in no way stopped the progression of this disease. It almost felt like another DDay for me and again I had no control over the damage that was done to me.
I know I will handle this as best as I can and with dignity for as long as I am able to function. I do know WH#2 doesn't have my back and never did, but now I will be forced to remain in this marriage as he carries my insurance and I will not be able to work in my career because I will have no immune system. They will knock it out to try and wipe out the antibodies that are attacking my liver, but in the process it also wipes out all my other good antibodies. I will not be able to take care of my sick patients ever again and that breaks my heart. All my hard work to get myself to where I am in my career is now a mute point. I really feel lost and alone right now.
I am sorry about the long post. I know it is not entirely infedelity related, so I probably shouldn't even be posting it here. I guess I just needed to tell someone how I was feeling.